Fix fake healers and tanks in dungeons

aleksandr_ESO

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

zaria

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

Orbital78

cyberjanet wrote: »

Nobody should be allowed to queue for a random dungeon. Period. End of Problem.

What if you're subscribed to ESO++ ulta premium?

Hapexamendios

Solo queue for random normal would be ideal for me. Just maje sure dungeons with mechanics that require 2 players are not included. Rather solo than deal with idiots.

Horace-Wimp

nb_rich wrote: »

...Why do the people that Que up properly have to suffer?

Are you a dungeon rusher skipping bosses and trash and these 'fake' healers are dying because you pulled everything on your rush to the final boss and then died because it was too much too fast for the group? Yeah, I've seen that WAY too many times for my liking.

A pox be upon ALL dungeon rushers! May all their bits shrivel up and fall off!

Note to ZOS: Please fix ALL dungeons so that NOTHING can be skipped - ALL content must be cleared to get to the last boss. Thank you.

Desiato

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Solo queue for random normal would be ideal for me. Just maje sure dungeons with mechanics that require 2 players are not included. Rather solo than deal with idiots.

The entire reason the the random dungeon reward exists is to make it easier for players looking for a pug to find groups, so that would defeat the purpose.

ZOS is basically paying us with transmutes and exp to put up with all this stuff and especially to mentor new players, even if passively.

Hapexamendios

Desiato wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Solo queue for random normal would be ideal for me. Just maje sure dungeons with mechanics that require 2 players are not included. Rather solo than deal with idiots.

The entire reason the the random dungeon reward exists is to make it easier for players looking for a pug to find groups, so that would defeat the purpose.

ZOS is basically paying us with transmutes and exp to put up with all this stuff and especially to mentor new players, even if passively.

The groups are the problem. Better for me to do solo.

valenwood_vegan

There really needs to be a special queue for me with only players who I approve of.

Oh wait, that's my friends list.

Desiato

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Solo queue for random normal would be ideal for me. Just maje sure dungeons with mechanics that require 2 players are not included. Rather solo than deal with idiots.

The entire reason the the random dungeon reward exists is to make it easier for players looking for a pug to find groups, so that would defeat the purpose.

ZOS is basically paying us with transmutes and exp to put up with all this stuff and especially to mentor new players, even if passively.

The groups are the problem. Better for me to do solo.

I understand that. The point is that ZOS only rewards us to help people who want pugs. They're not going to do otherwise.

Renato90085

zaria wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

History always repeats itself

it yesterday pug run

colossalvoids

It's a multi faceted issue. From player behaviour that was born from direct dev actions to lack of general skill and knowledge for a average modern player who joined in recent years, to lack of incentive to progress or learn in a fort place. This would require major changes akin to what Vengeance is doing for PvP as it's also a forced behaviour change in a sense, at least currently, which is one of it's biggest points for it's popularity when the most egregious things are seems more or less gone and points that make people quit are smooth as they can be.

SpaceElf

It's not important considering the many other things that need the dev's attention. It's not breaking TOS to suck at tanking or healing. It's almost like it's an open world where anyone can randomly join your group using the same method exact process.

Sarannah

Varana wrote: »

Because there is no solution.
You cannot enforce role compliance at a general level.

If you require a "tanking test", or require to have a taunt slotted - I can swap gear and skills freely, and no one can force me to actually use my taunt.
A "healing test" is inherently nonsense - as noted, you're often better off without a healer anyway, and even with one, it's more about buffing the group and doing additional damage, than raw healing, with very few exceptions.

As has been noted, the Holy Trinity in ESO is a rather fluid concept. You can swap roles really easily by just changing some skills around, especially in easier/older content.
You can breeze through a lot of content without a clear role designation, if everyone is competent enough. Tanking gets progressively harder the less damage the group does, and healing becomes more necessary with less than optimal groups in the same way. It's a sliding scale in three dimensions.

Simple fix: Make dungeons 1t+1h+3dps, and queues wil be faster too while lowering the odds of low dps. Queue as tank role = reduce dmg dealt by 80% and all single target attacks/skills autotaunt, Queue as healer = all damage skills change to healing instead and damage done is reduced by 60%, Queue as DPS you get a 15% damage bonus.

SpaceElf wrote: »

It's not important considering the many other things that need the dev's attention. It's not breaking TOS to suck at tanking or healing. It's almost like it's an open world where anyone can randomly join your group using the same method exact process.

Actually, I think this is the most important gameplay issue for the game to fix right now(besides performance and PvP). As many players are having bad experiences up to the point where they stop running dungeons or even stop playing the game. It is NOT fun for players to have two or more LONG queues in a row, just because some players skip the line and do not care about another person's time. To me, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken right now. Which isn't a good thing for the game and the population. (Note: I love ESO and I love MMO's and I love running dungeons, but even I have considered going to other MMO's to have fun running dungeons again. Not good!)

PS: There is a major difference between being bad at a role, and just not wanting to perform a role while using that role to skip the line.

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Note to ZOS: Please fix ALL dungeons so that NOTHING can be skipped - ALL content must be cleared to get to the last boss. Thank you.

Would love this also!

Renato90085 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

History always repeats itself

it yesterday pug run

Seems like you were the tank, and partly at fault there. Tank the daedra at the plateau's entrance(boss spawn) and you can kill the orbs at the same time with a few AOE's, even with low tank damage of 3k. Also, point the daedra away from the group and the main boss, as they use aoe stuns that move over the floor, making it much harder to dps and stressing the healer. As a tank you need to control the dungeon.

Renato90085

Sarannah wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Because there is no solution.
You cannot enforce role compliance at a general level.

If you require a "tanking test", or require to have a taunt slotted - I can swap gear and skills freely, and no one can force me to actually use my taunt.
A "healing test" is inherently nonsense - as noted, you're often better off without a healer anyway, and even with one, it's more about buffing the group and doing additional damage, than raw healing, with very few exceptions.

As has been noted, the Holy Trinity in ESO is a rather fluid concept. You can swap roles really easily by just changing some skills around, especially in easier/older content.
You can breeze through a lot of content without a clear role designation, if everyone is competent enough. Tanking gets progressively harder the less damage the group does, and healing becomes more necessary with less than optimal groups in the same way. It's a sliding scale in three dimensions.

Simple fix: Make dungeons 1t+1h+3dps, and queues wil be faster too while lowering the odds of low dps. Queue as tank role = reduce dmg dealt by 80% and all single target attacks/skills autotaunt, Queue as healer = all damage skills change to healing instead and damage done is reduced by 60%, Queue as DPS you get a 15% damage bonus.

SpaceElf wrote: »

It's not important considering the many other things that need the dev's attention. It's not breaking TOS to suck at tanking or healing. It's almost like it's an open world where anyone can randomly join your group using the same method exact process.

Actually, I think this is the most important gameplay issue for the game to fix right now(besides performance and PvP). As many players are having bad experiences up to the point where they stop running dungeons or even stop playing the game. It is NOT fun for players to have two or more LONG queues in a row, just because some players skip the line and do not care about another person's time. To me, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken right now. Which isn't a good thing for the game and the population. (Note: I love ESO and I love MMO's and I love running dungeons, but even I have considered going to other MMO's to have fun running dungeons again. Not good!)

PS: There is a major difference between being bad at a role, and just not wanting to perform a role while using that role to skip the line.

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Note to ZOS: Please fix ALL dungeons so that NOTHING can be skipped - ALL content must be cleared to get to the last boss. Thank you.

Would love this also!

Renato90085 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

History always repeats itself

it yesterday pug run

Seems like you were the tank, and partly at fault there. Tank the daedra at the plateau's entrance(boss spawn) and you can kill the orbs at the same time with a few AOE's, even with low tank damage of 3k. Also, point the daedra away from the group and the main boss, as they use aoe stuns that move over the floor, making it much harder to dps and stressing the healer. As a tank you need to control the dungeon.

it vet,and only healer know need kill orb
i think total 16k dps cant kill next summon daedra

Reginald_leBlem

If every person that complained about a fake tanks and healers in the queue made a real tank or healer and queued on it, this problem would vanish overnight.

I think people should be banned from making posts complaining about fake supports roles until they can prove they habitually queue on those roles.

Saintinel

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

Eyran

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

This is spot on, i've seen many friends quit the game because of this. Nowadays I just run dungeons solo

Heronisan

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

Yes its honestly ridiculous zos dont do anything to improve the experience.

Im pretty shure it does more damage then positive.

One problem is the fact that unlike wow where you have dungeons from level 10-15, 15-20 and so on, here in eso you are all the same level getting the same rewards, it would be like putting level 100 players in a level 15 dungeon, offcourse they will rush ahead.

Not giving players an option to be separated more is a very strange choice

I have made earlier suggestions of making a checkmark called "veteran player" if you check this you will be matched with others who also checked it, letting players choose to que with people they consider same experience level, or even a checkmark called "beginner player"

There should also be an option to not have to que for every single dungeon, you que for random dungeon, but you can deselect dungeons all the way down to 5+ dungeons.

When random dungeon finder first came out we only had easy base game dungeons, with power scaling they have added increasingly difficult dungeons that is frankly to much for a huge portion of the playerbase.

I only play vet dungeon and putting a freshly dinged cp 300 in graven deep or coral aerie when they have been fiddling around in FG1 before dinging cp 300 is incredibly bad game design.

Letting people choose less dungeons to que for would also get rid of alot of fake healers/tanks and insta quitters in dlc who does their daily random on 10+ characters, as they could stay in the easy base game dungeons just like they prefer to get their fast reward.

At this point its just stupid they dont do literally anything to improve the quality of random dungeon

tmbrinks

nb_rich wrote: »

The only thing I can think of is that no one should be allowed to que up as a tank unless you have a sword and shield or ice staff equipped, also no one should be allowed to que up as a healer without a resto staff equipped. Once locked in and qued up you shouldn’t be allowed to change your weapon so people don't que up go in and change their weapon.

You can heal most content in the game without a resto staff (exceptions are some trials and later DLC dungeons). There are plenty of class skills that heal, along with other healing skills in other lines.

Does your suggestion also require DDs to queue with only combinations of dual wield, two-handed, destro staff and bow? Because I've seen plenty of S+B and Resto staff wielding "DDs" in dungeons.

tmbrinks

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

The point that I wasn't doing a lot of damage... it's that the DDs were doing virtually no damage. Players who can bow LA their way through overland content think that translates to veteran content.

Ardriel

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

Unfortunately, you won't learn to tank properly until the vet DLC dungeons. Even there, you may meet kamikaze dps who run ahead and pull trash and even bosses, die and blame the tank.
I think fake roles are annoying but I have no idea how ZOS could change that and whether it would even be technically possible. If the server has to make countless checks when someone queues (tank gear, taunt, resto staff equipped…) , then the group search will certainly take much longer. And then the players will complain again.

Sarannah

Eyran wrote: »

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

This is spot on, i've seen many friends quit the game because of this. Nowadays I just run dungeons solo

This is actually why I am so fierce in my stance against fake role players, as this issue causes players to quit or quit parts of the game(dungeons).

@Saintinel Do not be afraid to keep queueing for dungeons, sometimes you will run into a great group. As a real tank you are basically only expected to taunt bosses, and even bad tanks barely ever get kicked ( I have messed up occasionally too). The best thing to remember is that every dungeonrun is a new experience. As long as you teach yourself the boss mechanics and taunt bosses, you will be fine.
Find a tankbuild that works for you, and simply enjoy playing that build. Personally I started practicing my tanking on world bosses, and world bosses with lots of adds. Noone expects a tank there, so there is no issue if you mess up. But it does help you to learn how to handle multiple targets.
Please never stop queueing just because players may get angry at you, most players love a real tank.

Renato90085 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Because there is no solution.
You cannot enforce role compliance at a general level.

If you require a "tanking test", or require to have a taunt slotted - I can swap gear and skills freely, and no one can force me to actually use my taunt.
A "healing test" is inherently nonsense - as noted, you're often better off without a healer anyway, and even with one, it's more about buffing the group and doing additional damage, than raw healing, with very few exceptions.

As has been noted, the Holy Trinity in ESO is a rather fluid concept. You can swap roles really easily by just changing some skills around, especially in easier/older content.
You can breeze through a lot of content without a clear role designation, if everyone is competent enough. Tanking gets progressively harder the less damage the group does, and healing becomes more necessary with less than optimal groups in the same way. It's a sliding scale in three dimensions.

Simple fix: Make dungeons 1t+1h+3dps, and queues wil be faster too while lowering the odds of low dps. Queue as tank role = reduce dmg dealt by 80% and all single target attacks/skills autotaunt, Queue as healer = all damage skills change to healing instead and damage done is reduced by 60%, Queue as DPS you get a 15% damage bonus.

SpaceElf wrote: »

It's not important considering the many other things that need the dev's attention. It's not breaking TOS to suck at tanking or healing. It's almost like it's an open world where anyone can randomly join your group using the same method exact process.

Actually, I think this is the most important gameplay issue for the game to fix right now(besides performance and PvP). As many players are having bad experiences up to the point where they stop running dungeons or even stop playing the game. It is NOT fun for players to have two or more LONG queues in a row, just because some players skip the line and do not care about another person's time. To me, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken right now. Which isn't a good thing for the game and the population. (Note: I love ESO and I love MMO's and I love running dungeons, but even I have considered going to other MMO's to have fun running dungeons again. Not good!)

PS: There is a major difference between being bad at a role, and just not wanting to perform a role while using that role to skip the line.

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Note to ZOS: Please fix ALL dungeons so that NOTHING can be skipped - ALL content must be cleared to get to the last boss. Thank you.

Would love this also!

Renato90085 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

History always repeats itself

it yesterday pug run

Seems like you were the tank, and partly at fault there. Tank the daedra at the plateau's entrance(boss spawn) and you can kill the orbs at the same time with a few AOE's, even with low tank damage of 3k. Also, point the daedra away from the group and the main boss, as they use aoe stuns that move over the floor, making it much harder to dps and stressing the healer. As a tank you need to control the dungeon.

it vet,and only healer know need kill orb
i think total 16k dps cant kill next summon daedra

Ah vet! Well, all should know to kill the orbs, but basically you can do it when you tank in the right spot. And/or just tell everyone to kill the orbs when they see them. Like I said, control the dungeon!

Looking at this screenshot your dps is 3.6k and 13% of the total dps, which makes the total dps 27k. One player is dead however, and the boss is at 4% so nearly dead. So in this case I do not think the problem is low dps. In this case I suspect the problem is bad positioning by the tank, causing the dps to get stunned/dying/lowering dps/stopping dps. Sorry.
PS: You can ignore the daedra's kill-wise, just have the group focus kill the boss. You just have to taunt all the daedra while the group kills the boss.

Desiato

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

@Saintinel It's not really possible to learn proper tanking in normal dungeons because ZOS has made them way too easy.

Also, the game incentivizes players who are absolutely sick of random dungeons to play them every day for transmute crystals, which is why they rush.

But forget about all that for now. A thing about ESO is that it's not a true triad MMO like traditional MMOs like WoW. Roles are extremely fluid and can be distributed among group members. It is only in veteran DLC and Trials when traditional tanking becomes a required role, and even then there is fluidity at times.

Also, the main factor that helps groups complete content throughout the game is optimizing damage. Later, in a full tank build, buffing your group and debuffing the boss to facilitate this will be an essential part of your role.

Your main focus should be on learning the game in general and getting to CP 160. It doesn't take long and it's important to reach that milestone so you can start making longer-term gear sets you won't out-level.

While doing this focus on guild skill lines like Fighters Guild, Mage's Guild, Psijic Order. Focus on getting Skyshards and skill points. Play through public dungeons.

You should be researching crafting traits, even if you don't plan on crafting. They are essential to learn for all crafts.

Learn Scribing if you haven't already. Actually, it is the first thing to do. Start levelling Antiquities Scrying because you will want them. Ring of the Wild Hunt. This is the most OP mythic for a player at your stage and it is useful for tanks to solve the problem you have observed already by staying ahead of your group.

From there, figure out competent overland build that is highly skewed towards damage, but balanced with survivability and sustain and try to solo base game world bosses. Figuring this out how to do it will help you more than anything right now. You will learn the basics of tanking here! Blocking cues, avoiding AEs, etc... Also try normal Maelstrom Arena. which is pretty easy, but again, it's all about your personal ESO training and learning how to assemble builds appropriate for the content.

This is when you can move into tanking dungeons with an emerging understanding of the game and how to make content appropriate builds.

Normal dungeons are so easy, they don't require a full tank build tank. A good normal dungeon tank will is quick, stays ahead of the group between bosses so they can be the first one to the trash packs, and contributes damage. Playing a full tank build in normal dungeon content will only teach bad habits like permablocking. While keeping the bosses taunted, you also should be contributing damage and staying as active as possible. Good tanks don't permablock and are extremely active in top end content, so this is good training for your end goal.

A normal dungeon tank build should have a maximum of 30k health, and you can go with something like 3 heavy, 3 light and 1 medium if you want to play it safe, but you can really get by easily with 3-3-1 light/med/heavy or even 5-1-1 based on your primary resource (either stamina or magcika). Grind normal dungeons to collect sets and to get a feel for the mechs.

Once you get a comfort level, then consider vet dungeons. They are challenging not only because of the content, but also because of the random nature of the group members. You should then start learning from this guy. Watch his tank guides.

Or just have fun playing how you want. But in any case, you're not at a stage for a full tank build yet. There is much for you to develop and learn first.

Four_Fingers

It is just too bad that not every player can be as good as people who complain about them being "fake".
Everybody should just start "good". /s

DestroyerPewnack

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

Don't worry, you still have to get to CP160, and even CP300 if you want to be able to queue for vet DLC dungeons.
"A problem delayed is a problem denied." James Wilson

DestroyerPewnack

I always queue as a fake healer, and if I get called out for it, I use vigor and tell them I'm a self-healer. The game didn't specify.

Nemesis7884

For normal dungeons i vastly prefer fake tanks/healers with real damage over real tanks/healers with fake damage...

...so speak for yourself - i lile the way it is (and i never fake role)

twisttop138

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

Find a good guild. Plenty of folks love to teach new people how to tank for dungeons and trials. It may take a bit of trying to find a right fit but you'll find it.

Renato90085

Sarannah wrote: »

Eyran wrote: »

Saintinel wrote: »

As a new player who decided to make my first character a tank (Arcanist), I am very scared for when I hit 50, which is very soon. I have tried to hone my skills in dungeons since my only tanking experience is WoW (Vanilla to Cataclysm) and threat seems to work WAY differently in this game, but it's nearly impossible. Why impossible? Because every time I join a dungeon, I always have way over leveled and geared DPS who never give me a chance to pull first, everyone just rushes forward with no regard to me trying to keep up.

How am I supposed to learn like this? I love the concept of the Arcanist tank, like I LOVE my Arcanist, but I can't help but worry for when I try higher level content simply because no matter what I do, I can't find people to want to be patient and let me tank.

This is spot on, i've seen many friends quit the game because of this. Nowadays I just run dungeons solo

This is actually why I am so fierce in my stance against fake role players, as this issue causes players to quit or quit parts of the game(dungeons).

@Saintinel Do not be afraid to keep queueing for dungeons, sometimes you will run into a great group. As a real tank you are basically only expected to taunt bosses, and even bad tanks barely ever get kicked ( I have messed up occasionally too). The best thing to remember is that every dungeonrun is a new experience. As long as you teach yourself the boss mechanics and taunt bosses, you will be fine.
Find a tankbuild that works for you, and simply enjoy playing that build. Personally I started practicing my tanking on world bosses, and world bosses with lots of adds. Noone expects a tank there, so there is no issue if you mess up. But it does help you to learn how to handle multiple targets.
Please never stop queueing just because players may get angry at you, most players love a real tank.

Renato90085 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Because there is no solution.
You cannot enforce role compliance at a general level.

If you require a "tanking test", or require to have a taunt slotted - I can swap gear and skills freely, and no one can force me to actually use my taunt.
A "healing test" is inherently nonsense - as noted, you're often better off without a healer anyway, and even with one, it's more about buffing the group and doing additional damage, than raw healing, with very few exceptions.

As has been noted, the Holy Trinity in ESO is a rather fluid concept. You can swap roles really easily by just changing some skills around, especially in easier/older content.
You can breeze through a lot of content without a clear role designation, if everyone is competent enough. Tanking gets progressively harder the less damage the group does, and healing becomes more necessary with less than optimal groups in the same way. It's a sliding scale in three dimensions.

Simple fix: Make dungeons 1t+1h+3dps, and queues wil be faster too while lowering the odds of low dps. Queue as tank role = reduce dmg dealt by 80% and all single target attacks/skills autotaunt, Queue as healer = all damage skills change to healing instead and damage done is reduced by 60%, Queue as DPS you get a 15% damage bonus.

SpaceElf wrote: »

It's not important considering the many other things that need the dev's attention. It's not breaking TOS to suck at tanking or healing. It's almost like it's an open world where anyone can randomly join your group using the same method exact process.

Actually, I think this is the most important gameplay issue for the game to fix right now(besides performance and PvP). As many players are having bad experiences up to the point where they stop running dungeons or even stop playing the game. It is NOT fun for players to have two or more LONG queues in a row, just because some players skip the line and do not care about another person's time. To me, the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken right now. Which isn't a good thing for the game and the population. (Note: I love ESO and I love MMO's and I love running dungeons, but even I have considered going to other MMO's to have fun running dungeons again. Not good!)

PS: There is a major difference between being bad at a role, and just not wanting to perform a role while using that role to skip the line.

Horace-Wimp wrote: »

Note to ZOS: Please fix ALL dungeons so that NOTHING can be skipped - ALL content must be cleared to get to the last boss. Thank you.

Would love this also!

Renato90085 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

I've queued as an actual tank before... and was doing >50% of the group's damage.

what sets are you using? or show me SuperStar plz

i say its pretty easy in an normal dungeon with 3 new players and you having an overland setup with dps bars and gear.
I managed it as an pure tank long ago first tank I made, Banish cell 2 normal I was lvl 47 something.
None of the other 3 knew how to play, probably had random gear and at most used one skill.
I learned that BC 2 has two dps checks, first I knew from back then game was new, Keeper Indril will spawn adds and you need to kill the adds or they will overwhelm you if your dps is idiotic low.
Last boss, you need to kill the dadrots or they will also overwhelm you, you also need to kill the spheres so they don't heal the boss.
You can fail on both in normal.

Now I tanked an vet BC 2 where I came in on last boss, dps was low, but not idiotic low, healer was good and knew the mechanics trew shards at me and killed orbs, the problem was that the DD thought they could not kill any daedrots so then I released some they freaked out and has 15 on the platform at the end.

History always repeats itself

it yesterday pug run

Seems like you were the tank, and partly at fault there. Tank the daedra at the plateau's entrance(boss spawn) and you can kill the orbs at the same time with a few AOE's, even with low tank damage of 3k. Also, point the daedra away from the group and the main boss, as they use aoe stuns that move over the floor, making it much harder to dps and stressing the healer. As a tank you need to control the dungeon.

it vet,and only healer know need kill orb
i think total 16k dps cant kill next summon daedra

Ah vet! Well, all should know to kill the orbs, but basically you can do it when you tank in the right spot. And/or just tell everyone to kill the orbs when they see them. Like I said, control the dungeon!

Looking at this screenshot your dps is 3.6k and 13% of the total dps, which makes the total dps 27k. One player is dead however, and the boss is at 4% so nearly dead. So in this case I do not think the problem is low dps. In this case I suspect the problem is bad positioning by the tank, causing the dps to get stunned/dying/lowering dps/stopping dps. Sorry.
PS: You can ignore the daedra's kill-wise, just have the group focus kill the boss. You just have to taunt all the daedra while the group kills the boss.

The dead dd got stuck bug and he is new player ,don't know how /stuck or PTE ,I think he dead on boss 50-60%
and no,they Dps not Enough,my first 3min pull all daedra on boss and bash ,but Dps can't kill any add,and healer tell they need kill orb so we can clean

Saintinel

Desiato wrote: »

@Saintinel It's not really possible to learn proper tanking in normal dungeons because ZOS has made them way too easy.

Also, the game incentivizes players who are absolutely sick of random dungeons to play them every day for transmute crystals, which is why they rush.

But forget about all that for now. A thing about ESO is that it's not a true triad MMO like traditional MMOs like WoW. Roles are extremely fluid and can be distributed among group members. It is only in veteran DLC and Trials when traditional tanking becomes a required role, and even then there is fluidity at times.

Also, the main factor that helps groups complete content throughout the game is optimizing damage. Later, in a full tank build, buffing your group and debuffing the boss to facilitate this will be an essential part of your role.

Your main focus should be on learning the game in general and getting to CP 160. It doesn't take long and it's important to reach that milestone so you can start making longer-term gear sets you won't out-level.

While doing this focus on guild skill lines like Fighters Guild, Mage's Guild, Psijic Order. Focus on getting Skyshards and skill points. Play through public dungeons.

You should be researching crafting traits, even if you don't plan on crafting. They are essential to learn for all crafts.

Learn Scribing if you haven't already. Actually, it is the first thing to do. Start levelling Antiquities Scrying because you will want them. Ring of the Wild Hunt. This is the most OP mythic for a player at your stage and it is useful for tanks to solve the problem you have observed already by staying ahead of your group.

From there, figure out competent overland build that is highly skewed towards damage, but balanced with survivability and sustain and try to solo base game world bosses. Figuring this out how to do it will help you more than anything right now. You will learn the basics of tanking here! Blocking cues, avoiding AEs, etc... Also try normal Maelstrom Arena. which is pretty easy, but again, it's all about your personal ESO training and learning how to assemble builds appropriate for the content.

This is when you can move into tanking dungeons with an emerging understanding of the game and how to make content appropriate builds.

Normal dungeons are so easy, they don't require a full tank build tank. A good normal dungeon tank will is quick, stays ahead of the group between bosses so they can be the first one to the trash packs, and contributes damage. Playing a full tank build in normal dungeon content will only teach bad habits like permablocking. While keeping the bosses taunted, you also should be contributing damage and staying as active as possible. Good tanks don't permablock and are extremely active in top end content, so this is good training for your end goal.

A normal dungeon tank build should have a maximum of 30k health, and you can go with something like 3 heavy, 3 light and 1 medium if you want to play it safe, but you can really get by easily with 3-3-1 light/med/heavy or even 5-1-1 based on your primary resource (either stamina or magcika). Grind normal dungeons to collect sets and to get a feel for the mechs.

Once you get a comfort level, then consider vet dungeons. They are challenging not only because of the content, but also because of the random nature of the group members. You should then start learning from this guy. Watch his tank guides.

Or just have fun playing how you want. But in any case, you're not at a stage for a full tank build yet. There is much for you to develop and learn first.

Wow, this was a well detailed answer, there is a few point I'd like to comment on so I'll do my best to do so clearly lol

1- I did notice, after making my character, that it was sadly not a true triad MMO, which is annoying because before you play, it looks like it is. And it's also a very flawed design because making tanking only necessary in veteran dungeon tends to make the life of people like me who just recently started, VERY hard. Because based on some of the prior replies, groups in this game seem to be similar to WoW in the way that DD's tend to blame everything on the tank and healers when they aren't even remotely at fault. So based on that, there's already that annoyance to deal with as a tank, having to learn your role in end game content just seems like even more unnecessary stress to deal with that could be easily avoided by making mass pulls in normal dungeons punishable. So if a dps runs forward without the tank, they die.

2- Sadly, while I do not roleplay for the most part, I tend to have the idea of my character already in mind when making them. In the case of my tank arcanist, he's a tank, he shouldn't be doing good damage, he should be able to take massive hits and survive all while providing support to his group in the for of buffs, debuffs, healing, shields and such. I know myself enough to know if I try to re-optimize my build for damage, i'll lose interest and either quit the game or roll a DD (because the same problem would arise with a healer).

3- As for soloing, I just can't do it. I understand this will sound extremely dumb, but it is true. There is a reason I don't play singleplayer games and that's because I lose interest in, and I'm not joking, 5 to 10 minutes. I play an MMO to do content with others, not on my own. Which is also why I have very little of the map complete and only do it in increments of 15 minutes or grind it with some friends.

4- As for staying ahead in dungeons, in my mind, a tank protects his group, and therefore does not move forward until the threat is neutralized. And the problem is, there's always that one DD that runs to the next pack before the current one is done with.

Which brings me to another observation: This might be my inner WoW player talking, but where the hell are the AoE Taunts in this game? I could easily manage with overeager DD's if I had an AoE taunt, but no, all I can do is either pull them 1 by 1 or poke them 1 by 1 to get their aggro. And by the time I'm done with that, the pull is over with. Huge oversight imo as a newer player.

5- Light and Medium armor? Based on the few guides I had quickly looked at, they all said to focus on heavy armor only? And honestly, feels weird to wear light armor on a tank character. Medium I can work with tho. I tend to go for a more barbarian /gladiator ish look but sadly the chest piece looks I'd like is currently like 300k and I'm nowhere near able to afford that yet so I went with a more traditional tank armor with a bit of a Orcish vibe and got what I could with the money Heroe's Return gave me. Not perfect but I'm satisfied for the moment. I'll attach a picture of it to this post


6- I haven't been crafting but I have been researching as much as I can I will look into Scribing, I've been mostly doing world events, Dolmen I think they're called?

7- That ring looks awesome! I'll have to look into it

I want to thank you so much for taking the time to go in such good details! it helped a lot!