The Lack of Synergies since Up 46

ElderSmitter

I am a Tank and love running all kinds of content Hard and Easy does not matter to me. I used to run all Harmony Jewelry because i built my Tank that way. I loved it.! The resource restore was immense! I have since altered my Jewelry because i have noticed a huge decrease in Synergies. Especially coming from Healers. Are Helaers now running more DD abilities and not slotting Orbs for instance and is the Arcanist Beam Craze causing players to use less Synergy style skills? Even noticing way less Spear Shards being thrown too!

DenverRalphy

I blame it on Banner Bearer! Suddenly it's the non negotiable must have meta skill which takes two skillbar slots to keep it permanently up, and the synergy skills are the sacrifice.

LOL! I started typing that sentence to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. But by the time I finished I realized that it's probably not that far off the mark. Because today I noticed more than once that my Bowplar (which is doing quite nicely with subclassing mixed in) seemed to be the only character tossing synergies (spear shards) while doing RND and vet pledges.

ElderSmitter

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I blame it on Banner Bearer! Suddenly it's the non negotiable must have meta skill which takes two skillbar slots to keep it permanently up, and the synergy skills are the sacrifice.

LOL! I started typing that sentence to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. But by the time I finished I realized that it's probably not that far off the mark. Because today I noticed more than once that my Bowplar (which is doing quite nicely with subclassing mixed in) seemed to be the only character tossing synergies (spear shards) while doing RND and vet pledges.

Yes, there is not many at all. Not enough at least to make 3 pieces of Harmony as part of my build anymore. Still using 2 pieces and really never have resource issues but 1 piece of Harmony i feel may not be worth it. lol. I enjoy mixing it up but was spoiled. Now with the 10 second cool down with Orb's and Spears if no one else is using synergies the reward using Harmony is not there.

mdjessup4906

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

In trials healers are still using synergy skills orbs, blood altar etc. Not sure about dungeons maybe they are changing it up. 3 dps is more common now too, so maybe your getting fake healers, or as you said, hybrids with only basic hots.

DenverRalphy

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

twisttop138

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

DenverRalphy

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Hotdog_23

I pugged Vet OC the other day on a DPS, and the tanks were talking also about lack of synergies as well. Slotted Luminous Shards for them, and both whispered, thanking me. So yes, I see a lot less synergies as well.

Stay safe

Argodynamics

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

As someone else said, the problem is subclassing + beam meta, as now we have better options to fill bars, and even though that lines have the abilities you listed, they don't fit well on a beam build as two of them have 10 seconds duration, and rune is just weak compared to other options. On a beam build, you want to beam as much as you can so having good long duration abilities is the way to go, and banner is also there to simplify the rotation and beam more. With zos killing arc banner next patch, I believe camo hunter will be back and another flex ability, maybe fulminating rune, maybe something else depending on the lines people are using.

Since arc beam builds are the meta now, and basically every arc uses same builds, maybe different third skill line, you won't see that many synergies for sure. And to add to the problem, DKs and Necros that were as good in cleave as Arcs before u46, both are now "dead". Necro is bugged due to pet cap and changes, blastbones not spawning and so on, and DK damage abilities being scattered across all three skill lines, and talking about synergies, Talons being in a dead skill line for a damage dealer. Having everyone running the same arc setup is the problem, and from a zenkosh perspective, I had that problem before u46, even before banner was a thing, with a group full of arcanists and bad uptimes. And speaking of zenkosh, because ZOS buffed pen passives, organized groups don't run Alkosh anymore, so people care even less on having abilities with synergies. On the not so organized side, people copy paste meta builds, most likely won't adapt to group necessities or sometimes don't even know why having synergies is important.

twisttop138

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Oh, lol I thought that went without saying since its a meta build. I should've said though. For the record I hate banner. Its ugly and it's ring is wildly distracting for me personally. That it doesn't go away when I despawn it makes me aggravated every time lol. Imo it hides mechanics as well. I only use it while parsing or actively in a vet or harder trial.

Hapexamendios

I'm running both Runebreal and Blazing Spear on my stamina arcanist.

mdjessup4906

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Yes... and before subclassing I ran fulminating almost everywhere. With subclassing I dont even have space for a self heal.

Spear shards is run on aedric arcs but mostly for the passive crit. You may or may not actually cast it, ive seen both. And if your raid lead wants you in something else thats what you run, synergies or not.

mdjessup4906

Kinda glad I never got around to trying harmony on tank, since now I dont know what im missing.

DenverRalphy

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Yes... and before subclassing I ran fulminating almost everywhere. With subclassing I dont even have space for a self heal.

Sure you do. You just choose not to.

mdjessup4906

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Yes... and before subclassing I ran fulminating almost everywhere. With subclassing I dont even have space for a self heal.

Sure you do. You just choose not to.

Basic setup for herald/assassin/dawn. Bb can be staff or gs depending on content but everything else stays the same. Where's it going, huh? Where?

Desiato

I never thought it wise to rely on harmony in vet pug dungeons and trials. I have two sets of jewelry per set on my tank.

This isn't an issue in better organized groups.

mdjessup4906

And yes, sav/prophecy can be run on banner but when thats done you almost always replace camo with cloak for the major evasion and enchant proc help on beam. This banner is heroism or courage id remember which. Only reason im not wearing it here is because I literally have no space for it.

DenverRalphy

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Yes... and before subclassing I ran fulminating almost everywhere. With subclassing I dont even have space for a self heal.

Sure you do. You just choose not to.

Basic setup for herald/assassin/dawn. Bb can be staff or gs depending on content but everything else stays the same. Where's it going, huh? Where?

And there it is. Banner Bearer taking two slots. Those can both be replaced with a synergy and/or a survival skill. But you won't because you can't get the "Meta says" voice off your mind. Despite current DPS metas providing such obscene overkill performance.

You can drop Banner Bearer, and STILL be overperforming for any endgame content. Including trifectas.

mdjessup4906

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Its not banner its subclassing. Nearly every meta dps build has us using stuff that doesn't give synergies so theres way less to go around.

Herald of the Tome - Runebreak.
Gravelord - Grave Robber.
Aedric Spear - Blazing Spear

One of those 3 skill lines makes it into almost every meta dps build. And they each have a synergy skill within those lines. As well, class skills aren't the only skill lines with synergies. There are synergies that every character can use regardless of their subclass choices.

Some Tank builds receive criticism for being "selfish" builds because their build focus is too much on personal protection and not so much on group support. I think so too DPS builds lately kinda bend that way. Because seriously, there are now subclass DPS builds that just facemelt anything that steps in front of them with extreme overkill. Would it hurt them to toss the occasional synergy?

No room for rune on my bars after subclassing for my arc. I've had to give up a couple things I always used but on most meta builds you see for herald, assassination and dawns wrath, rune isn't there. Maybe now that grim focus will be gone probably? I am switching to aedric spear though.

And I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts that Banner Bearer is on both skillbars. Correct?

Yes... and before subclassing I ran fulminating almost everywhere. With subclassing I dont even have space for a self heal.

Sure you do. You just choose not to.

Basic setup for herald/assassin/dawn. Bb can be staff or gs depending on content but everything else stays the same. Where's it going, huh? Where?

And there it is. Banner Bearer taking two slots. Those can both be replaced with a synergy and/or a survival skill. But you won't because you can't get the "Meta says" voice off your mind. Despite current DPS metas providing such obscene overkill performance.

You can drop Banner Bearer, and STILL be overperforming for any endgame content. Including trifectas.

Yep im a meta slave. But only because trying to theorycraft for myself in this game, with 10 million useless sets for every 1 or 2 actually useful ones, on top of the unbelievably unintuitive combat and borderline useless tooltips, unless your a data analysis nerd (thank Julianos for them nothing would make sense otherwise), made me rage quit group play completely untill our lords and saviors skinnycheeks and eigh1puppies showed up with actually useful and up to date guides for monkeys like me to follow.

BTW I do use fulminating sometimes in dungeons, especially when subclassed into lines that dont take up so much space. And ive leveled barrier completely on my dps while clearing pug hard modes lol so I know utility skills can be slotted.

The point is, synergies were NOT an issue with BANNER ONLY, So banner isnt the issue.

Next patches annihilation of banner on arc base class might bring back some synergies on dps.

Or, arc base class will be dropped entirely and some other base class with a slightly more useful banner will replace it.

Or, everything stays the same, banner is dropped, and some more synergy-less class skills are adopted instead because damage = king.

Rip my free time, God i hate skyshard farming.

Ragnarok0130

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am a Tank and love running all kinds of content Hard and Easy does not matter to me. I used to run all Harmony Jewelry because i built my Tank that way. I loved it.! The resource restore was immense! I have since altered my Jewelry because i have noticed a huge decrease in Synergies. Especially coming from Healers. Are Helaers now running more DD abilities and not slotting Orbs for instance and is the Arcanist Beam Craze causing players to use less Synergy style skills? Even noticing way less Spear Shards being thrown too!

That sounds like something tyour raid lead should correct. Each healer should slot orb and the GH should have altar too. If they're slotting the templar spear line they can at least throw you shards. I'm frequently seeing (as a healer) that we're running green balance, restoring light, and the siphoning skill lines. Sometimes I'll flex restoring light to curative runeforms depending on the trial but I always provide synergies.

DenverRalphy

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am a Tank and love running all kinds of content Hard and Easy does not matter to me. I used to run all Harmony Jewelry because i built my Tank that way. I loved it.! The resource restore was immense! I have since altered my Jewelry because i have noticed a huge decrease in Synergies. Especially coming from Healers. Are Helaers now running more DD abilities and not slotting Orbs for instance and is the Arcanist Beam Craze causing players to use less Synergy style skills? Even noticing way less Spear Shards being thrown too!

That sounds like something tyour raid lead should correct. Each healer should slot orb and the GH should have altar too. If they're slotting the templar spear line they can at least throw you shards. I'm frequently seeing (as a healer) that we're running green balance, restoring light, and the siphoning skill lines. Sometimes I'll flex restoring light to curative runeforms depending on the trial but I always provide synergies.

Pretty sure he's not talking about Raid level content. Likely just dungeon content or normal/non-hm trials with semi-rando people. Every dps player seems to insist on running meta builds in all content these days, even when they shouldn't.

Ragnarok0130

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am a Tank and love running all kinds of content Hard and Easy does not matter to me. I used to run all Harmony Jewelry because i built my Tank that way. I loved it.! The resource restore was immense! I have since altered my Jewelry because i have noticed a huge decrease in Synergies. Especially coming from Healers. Are Helaers now running more DD abilities and not slotting Orbs for instance and is the Arcanist Beam Craze causing players to use less Synergy style skills? Even noticing way less Spear Shards being thrown too!

That sounds like something tyour raid lead should correct. Each healer should slot orb and the GH should have altar too. If they're slotting the templar spear line they can at least throw you shards. I'm frequently seeing (as a healer) that we're running green balance, restoring light, and the siphoning skill lines. Sometimes I'll flex restoring light to curative runeforms depending on the trial but I always provide synergies.

Pretty sure he's not talking about Raid level content. Likely just dungeon content or normal/non-hm trials with semi-rando people. Every dps player seems to insist on running meta builds in all content these days, even when they shouldn't.

Even if f it's a premade group for dungeons it's something that they can discuss ahead of time. If he's queuing for random teammates via group finder then one must be prepared for less than optimum team comp and support and adjust your build to compensate..

ElderSmitter

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am a Tank and love running all kinds of content Hard and Easy does not matter to me. I used to run all Harmony Jewelry because i built my Tank that way. I loved it.! The resource restore was immense! I have since altered my Jewelry because i have noticed a huge decrease in Synergies. Especially coming from Healers. Are Helaers now running more DD abilities and not slotting Orbs for instance and is the Arcanist Beam Craze causing players to use less Synergy style skills? Even noticing way less Spear Shards being thrown too!

That sounds like something tyour raid lead should correct. Each healer should slot orb and the GH should have altar too. If they're slotting the templar spear line they can at least throw you shards. I'm frequently seeing (as a healer) that we're running green balance, restoring light, and the siphoning skill lines. Sometimes I'll flex restoring light to curative runeforms depending on the trial but I always provide synergies.

Pretty sure he's not talking about Raid level content. Likely just dungeon content or normal/non-hm trials with semi-rando people. Every dps player seems to insist on running meta builds in all content these days, even when they shouldn't.

Even if f it's a premade group for dungeons it's something that they can discuss ahead of time. If he's queuing for random teammates via group finder then one must be prepared for less than optimum team comp and support and adjust your build to compensate..

Well Duh.... I know all of these things and I am not complaining. I am just pointing out that there are not enough synergies as before to Support the changes made to Harmony jewelry a few updates ago. You have a 10 second cool down for Orbs and Spears so if there are very few synergies after that it makes using Harmony not worth it or not as effective. Back in the day Orb was a staple in all Healer builds.

Cheers!

Liukke

Well, don't blame the system because random people don't play the game well.
Synergies are still there, good groups still use them efficiently, with or without banner, it would be dumb to change mechanics in order to make the game more casual...and besides synergies are a cool top up and not a tank survival need, in my opinion both sides are play the game not optimally.