Regarding Battle Roar

folko

I get the reason WHY you nerfed the skill to make it compatible with Subclassing so it won't provide insane resource regen when you pick Earthen Heart on any other class, but...

Why did you have to nerf the skill on the class instead of while subclassing?

Essentially my question is: was it really that difficult to basically do an: if(subclassing = true)
Battle_Roar = Nerfed
?

I mean it just sounds so obvious that you could simply add a check in the system that detects whether or not you are subclassing, and nerfing certain skills accordingly, and when you're pure classed, it leaves things as they are.

I'm not the only one who thinks this way, right?

Oblivion_Protocol

Because Battle Roar was over performing on the class it was intended for long before the concept of subclassing was conceived. You could literally ignore sustain on a DK in favor of rapid ult generation, use your ult every minute, and not only get back a bunch of Mag and Stam, but you also had a secondary burst heal on top of that.

Sluggy

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Because Battle Roar was over performing on the class it was intended for long before the concept of subclassing was conceived. You could literally ignore sustain on a DK in favor of rapid ult generation, use your ult every minute, and not only get back a bunch of Mag and Stam, but you also had a secondary burst heal on top of that.

Dragonknights used to be notorious as an extremely difficult class to sustain on. Getting a lot of resources back in large but infrequent bursts was what it was all about. And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with a class having unique strategies for how they obtain resources. It was an interesting class-specific mechanic that requires you to build AND play around that strength and limitation of your class. But, I guess that implies a sense of class identity which is completely gone now.

The real culprit for a straight DK is Combustion. They should have left it as it was for years instead of buffing the ever-loving crap out of it and then spending two years yo-yoing with it before finally settling on something that was still too good.

Urzigurumash

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Because Battle Roar was over performing on the class it was intended for long before the concept of subclassing was conceived. You could literally ignore sustain on a DK in favor of rapid ult generation, use your ult every minute, and not only get back a bunch of Mag and Stam, but you also had a secondary burst heal on top of that.

There's no Ult Gen out of combat - not for long - unlike Regens which double out of combat. DKs relying on Ult Gen helps to enforce the Knight / turtle archetype oppossed to the Rogue / kite archetypes in NB and Sorc.

DK is much too quick is the problem, too kitey. But the ethos of Sorcs and NBs came to dominate the discourse of PvP in this game.

Joy_Division

You're not the only one thinking this. That is exactly the worry that many of us had about sub-classing: ZOS will nerf things that are working fine on pure classes because of the fear that it can be combined with other classes. It's why pure classes are going to lose whatever identity they have left (not much at this point) and will struggle competitively.

Veinblood1965

Subclassing isn't out on console yet but this has me concerned. I was "hoping" ZoS did not take the nerf hammer to skills due to them being OP when used with subclassing. If this tends to be the trend going forward then those that do not want to subclass sometimes for their own reasons are left with suffering through nerf after nerf. The "class" identity will be a thing of the past really.

tsaescishoeshiner

folko wrote: »

/i]Essentially my question is: was it really that difficult to basically do an: if(subclassing = true)
Battle_Roar = Nerfed
?

Yes, because that's a huge increase in the number of things to balance, essentially more versions of skills and different versions of classes and skill lines. If they were to add power to people who refuse to use subclassing, there's probably a simpler way like a type of buff.

El_Borracho

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're not the only one thinking this. That is exactly the worry that many of us had about sub-classing: ZOS will nerf things that are working fine on pure classes because of the fear that it can be combined with other classes. It's why pure classes are going to lose whatever identity they have left (not much at this point) and will struggle competitively.

Exactly. This has been the response from players leery of subclassing from day one, which was always met with "you're overreacting."

Subclassing will not usher in a new era of diverse builds. It will be one meta for everything, with a bunch of niche builds, and junk skills left on the sidelines. More options on paper is never more options in reality. Once the "adjustments" begin, "play as you want" will officially be over.

Tonturri

El_Borracho wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

You're not the only one thinking this. That is exactly the worry that many of us had about sub-classing: ZOS will nerf things that are working fine on pure classes because of the fear that it can be combined with other classes. It's why pure classes are going to lose whatever identity they have left (not much at this point) and will struggle competitively.

Exactly. This has been the response from players leery of subclassing from day one, which was always met with "you're overreacting."

Subclassing will not usher in a new era of diverse builds. It will be one meta for everything, with a bunch of niche builds, and junk skills left on the sidelines. More options on paper is never more options in reality. Once the "adjustments" begin, "play as you want" will officially be over.

It's a weird place to be in. I've been fiddling with making a tanky nightblade that uses the cloak heal instead of stealth, and I'm just not sure I'll be able to make it work. Damage/burst is going up again, but I'm running into a bit of a wall with how to deal with it - we can now combine stuff like fissure + frags/will/pick-your-second-burst-skill, but there don't seem to be as many options for additional defensive stacking.

We were already in the realm of health pools being absolute minimum 30k, with 40k pretty common on arcs, wardens, and sometimes stam sorcs using ward. If I want to make a build that doesn't revolve around double burst, what're my options? More HoTs, more health? Urgh. There's always going to be a meta, but off-meta stuff seems even further behind this round. I don't really want to start seeing 35-45k health + oodles of defensive sets getting more common.

Sluggy

Tonturri wrote: »

It's a weird place to be in. I've been fiddling with making a tanky nightblade that uses the cloak heal instead of stealth, and I'm just not sure I'll be able to make it work. Damage/burst is going up again, but I'm running into a bit of a wall with how to deal with it - we can now combine stuff like fissure + frags/will/pick-your-second-burst-skill, but there don't seem to be as many options for additional defensive stacking.

We were already in the realm of health pools being absolute minimum 30k, with 40k pretty common on arcs, wardens, and sometimes stam sorcs using ward. If I want to make a build that doesn't revolve around double burst, what're my options? More HoTs, more health? Urgh. There's always going to be a meta, but off-meta stuff seems even further behind this round. I don't really want to start seeing 35-45k health + oodles of defensive sets getting more common.

I'm not sure what it's like now since I'm not really play at the time. But last year we were already well into the 37-47k territory for health. As for cloak on a NB, it worked pretty well for me when I ran about 47k hp. It was basically another vigor when moving and quite a lot stronger when not. You don't even have to give up an ounce of damage to get that either. I was still cracking well over 6k weapon damage and about 14k penetration when Balorgh's was up. Of course, given the state of how things are I don't know if any of that really makes much of a difference now. It's probably not the best way to build given the current options available.

Zyaneth_Bal

folko wrote: »

I get the reason WHY you nerfed the skill to make it compatible with Subclassing so it won't provide insane resource regen when you pick Earthen Heart on any other class, but...

Why did you have to nerf the skill on the class instead of while subclassing?

Essentially my question is: was it really that difficult to basically do an: if(subclassing = true)
Battle_Roar = Nerfed
?

I mean it just sounds so obvious that you could simply add a check in the system that detects whether or not you are subclassing, and nerfing certain skills accordingly, and when you're pure classed, it leaves things as they are.

I'm not the only one who thinks this way, right?

Indeed, that is exactly how multiclassing is done. Zos haven’t put any thought in it whatsoever