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Official Discussion Thread for "Meet the Character—Wormblood"
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I should have made my stance more clear.
Honestly, when re-reading my post today, I also noticed I missed the point I wanted to make a little bit
My biggest question was whether this would actually be written and published like that by Mannimarco or not. It's a bit cheesy, let's admit it, so would he really want to have that thing published? Because when you look at the ending, it looks like it's supposed to be some kind of Worm Cult propaganda to attract new members. Would he use a sob story for that?
Or it might be the work of some admirer/cultist who basically made up a "Mannimarco did nothing wrong!" story and published it to justify his actions (that's the main point I actually wanted to emphasize). Although of course there's a bit of insider info, but we don't know how much of this might actually be known among Worm Cultists.
Anyway...As Mannimarco is depicted in the game: no, I don't see him writing that poem. As we've been discussing Mannimarco: yes, I do see it. Because I do think there has to be more to him than just "evil for evil" and I don't think he's emotionless. I think he might be, at least once, prey to the strong emotions he might have felt, and then turned to the pen to vent, with or without the aid of lots of wine.
I agree that he certainly has some emotions, but to me this looks like it's written not for himself, but for others. Not only because of the "join the Worm Cult, we're awesome" part in the last 2 lines, but because the part he wrote about Vanny is rather far from the truth, and he must know it. His perception can't be that warped. So it's obviously slander what he's writing there - meant to defame Vanny in the eyes of other readers.Someone must have gone through his things after his defeat and found it.
The weirdest thing is that this "book" can be found in random bookshelves in Deshaan, Grahtwood and Stormhaven, which are the starter areas of the game, so you come across this thing rather fast, while Mannimarco is still alive and well. Sounds to me more like this is some kind of strange pamphlet promoting the Worm Cult, propaganda spread through being put into public bookshelves/libraries, so people come across them accidentally and read them, and might agree and decide to join (although I'm not entirely sure why, since I don't see anything there that tells me what advantages joining the Worm Cult would have for myself). The only question is whether some cultist spreads these on their own, being an admirer of Mannimarco, or whether he wrote and authorized it in person.It's just, while I believe he might have told all and sundry about being Aldmer, would he have told them Vanny's original name? Or is the fact that Vanny used to be Trechtus common knowledge?
It's a good question. Maybe Mannimarco calls him that when he mentions him as the enemy to his cultists? Now that's an amusing image, actually: Mannimarco preaching to his cultists about the evilness of the wicked and shameless lowborn Trechtus (And all so while knowing that he's lying and maybe thinking back to their relationship back then, how it truly was... It's also nothing more than a facade then. Which makes me think both Mannimarco as well as Vanny are actually very much not the public image of themselves that they promote - they are really not that different, after all. I mean, if they were, they probably would have never been friends anyway).
But honestly, would that be plausible? Mannimarco's cultists actually believing they were the good ones and Vanny and his guild the horrendously evil baddies? That would be very, very delusional. Makes me wonder how you'd be able to make people believe that? "Some guy said so" is hardly a convincing argument.
Which reminds me again that we actually don't have much info about the Worm Cult and what they believe in and why their members joined - all we have it's "They're evil necromancers and want the end of the world!"So, how does Mannimarco feel about the Elder Way? He seems a little dismissive of it, and he's drawn to the "obverse" of it, but then he accuses Vanny of flouting it and scorns mages in general for knowing nothing about it.
It seems a little incongruent, doesn't it? I mean, in a way, Mannimarco also wants to reshape the world, but by other means. Might be more a question of adverse measures than a true rejection of Mysticism. Or maybe he has a different idea of what Mysticism should be or become.I hope you slept well!
Death meditation worked. Had strange afflatus when awaking
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake1 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I should have made my stance more clear.
Honestly, when re-reading my post today, I also noticed I missed the point I wanted to make a little bit
My biggest question was whether this would actually be written and published like that by Mannimarco or not. It's a bit cheesy, let's admit it, so would he really want to have that thing published? Because when you look at the ending, it looks like it's supposed to be some kind of Worm Cult propaganda to attract new members. Would he use a sob story for that?
Or it might be the work of some admirer/cultist who basically made up a "Mannimarco did nothing wrong!" story and published it to justify his actions (that's the main point I actually wanted to emphasize). Although of course there's a bit of insider info, but we don't know how much of this might actually be known among Worm Cultists.
Anyway...As Mannimarco is depicted in the game: no, I don't see him writing that poem. As we've been discussing Mannimarco: yes, I do see it. Because I do think there has to be more to him than just "evil for evil" and I don't think he's emotionless. I think he might be, at least once, prey to the strong emotions he might have felt, and then turned to the pen to vent, with or without the aid of lots of wine.
I agree that he certainly has some emotions, but to me this looks like it's written not for himself, but for others. Not only because of the "join the Worm Cult, we're awesome" part in the last 2 lines, but because the part he wrote about Vanny is rather far from the truth, and he must know it. His perception can't be that warped. So it's obviously slander what he's writing there - meant to defame Vanny in the eyes of other readers.Someone must have gone through his things after his defeat and found it.
The weirdest thing is that this "book" can be found in random bookshelves in Deshaan, Grahtwood and Stormhaven, which are the starter areas of the game, so you come across this thing rather fast, while Mannimarco is still alive and well. Sounds to me more like this is some kind of strange pamphlet promoting the Worm Cult, propaganda spread through being put into public bookshelves/libraries, so people come across them accidentally and read them, and might agree and decide to join (although I'm not entirely sure why, since I don't see anything there that tells me what advantages joining the Worm Cult would have for myself). The only question is whether some cultist spreads these on their own, being an admirer of Mannimarco, or whether he wrote and authorized it in person.
The more we discuss it, the more reasons I see for the existence of this poem. So far we've got: 1. emotional venting (possible, but unlikely to see the light of day) 2. a follower/devotee trying to push the agenda of Mannimarco's "innocence" (possible, but runs into issues of inside information and how they would have known it) 3. outright propaganda to get people thinking the Worm Cult is the way to go (possible, explains why it shows up relatively early in the game).
The writing has so much conceit in it (or extremely robust self-esteem) that it seems only Mannimarco could have written it. I'm thinking of lines like: "Destined was I from long before birth to exceed all mortals." And though it might seem at first that he wouldn't portray himself as duped by Vanny, I think he's giving himself an out with the "lowborn cunning" line. After all, why would he, glorious Aldmer, the highest of the highborn, be able to detect lowborn cunning? It's beneath him to entertain such vulgar thought, and the only way Vanny (ambitious, reckless, shameless, Vanny) could defeat him was to take advantage of his lowborn status. Interesting, too, that among all the insults he tosses at Vanny, he also calls him talented.
So overall it does seem more like propaganda than anything else. Vilify Vanny (perhaps more than necessary because of heartbreak/bitterness) and trust that the aspiring cultists won't question the account too closely. I mean, he wouldn't be the first cult leader to hold such sway over his followers that they would just believe what he told them. (Thinking of a rather famous real-world counterpart here).
As far as propaganda goes, it really doesn't say much about what the average cultist will get out of joining. There's the idea of the freedom to practice necromancy and not be hounded by a mage guild always telling you what you can't do. And then the line about "generations reunited"--as if necromancy is just a simple tool to let you hang out with dearly departed loved ones. Both of those ideas could work on convincing people to join, but with how many members the cult has, it doesn't seem like nearly a good enough pitch.It's just, while I believe he might have told all and sundry about being Aldmer, would he have told them Vanny's original name? Or is the fact that Vanny used to be Trechtus common knowledge?
It's a good question. Maybe Mannimarco calls him that when he mentions him as the enemy to his cultists? Now that's an amusing image, actually: Mannimarco preaching to his cultists about the evilness of the wicked and shameless lowborn Trechtus (And all so while knowing that he's lying and maybe thinking back to their relationship back then, how it truly was... It's also nothing more than a facade then. Which makes me think both Mannimarco as well as Vanny are actually very much not the public image of themselves that they promote - they are really not that different, after all. I mean, if they were, they probably would have never been friends anyway).
I think there's some facade to each of their public personas; I'm just not sure how much. But you're right in that if they were always this opposed, they wouldn't have been friends or worked together on Artaeum.Which reminds me again that we actually don't have much info about the Worm Cult and what they believe in and why their members joined - all we have it's "They're evil necromancers and want the end of the world!"
I wonder if we ever will? From time to time in game you come across some writing (usually a journal) of someone who joined some group, be it cult or bandit, and regretted it. Usually they say something like, "I thought it would be different" but I don't recall much being said about anything specific as to why they joined. General desperation? True belief? Boredom? There could be many reasons, but we don't get details like that.So, how does Mannimarco feel about the Elder Way? He seems a little dismissive of it, and he's drawn to the "obverse" of it, but then he accuses Vanny of flouting it and scorns mages in general for knowing nothing about it.
It seems a little incongruent, doesn't it? I mean, in a way, Mannimarco also wants to reshape the world, but by other means. Might be more a question of adverse measures than a true rejection of Mysticism. Or maybe he has a different idea of what Mysticism should be or become.
I see. A case of "they weren't doing it the right way."
Well, that's good! And I can add another new (to me) word to my vocabulary, thanks to you!
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The writing has so much conceit in it (or extremely robust self-esteem) that it seems only Mannimarco could have written it.
Or an admirer Like Wormblood if Wormblood might not be Mannimarco. Although I bet there's many of them.Interesting, too, that among all the insults he tosses at Vanny, he also calls him talented.
In a way he has to, since how would an untalented peasant be able to fool him? Everything he says about Vanny also serves to characterize himself.Vilify Vanny (perhaps more than necessary because of heartbreak/bitterness)
It does sound extremely bitter. And I honestly think it's not even that much about being cast out from Artaeum (as a necromancer king/god he would have to leave at some point anyway), it's about feeling rejected. He had imagined a, from his point of view, perfect, bright future of reigning with Vanny by his side, as an equal; he proposed that to him - and Vanny said no. That's like making a marriage proposal and your partner refuses.As far as propaganda goes, it really doesn't say much about what the average cultist will get out of joining. There's the idea of the freedom to practice necromancy and not be hounded by a mage guild always telling you what you can't do. And then the line about "generations reunited"--as if necromancy is just a simple tool to let you hang out with dearly departed loved ones. Both of those ideas could work on convincing people to join, but with how many members the cult has, it doesn't seem like nearly a good enough pitch.
Indeed. "Necromancers unite!" sounds good to a necromancer who dreams of a society where they could practice their necromancy freely, but I really don't think there are so many people who are secretly necromancers in the general population. The handling of corpses alone would be disgusting to most people. Some mage youth might dabble in it out of curiosity, maybe more with a dead animal they found somewhere in nature than with some human/mer corpse, but I think most wouldn't stick with it. What purpose does it even serve?
The "reunite with loved ones" part makes it even stranger, since, as we know, necromancy like the Worm Cult practices it is more about raising some unsentient corpse as a thrall to do what you order it to do. Something like a zombie. Things like actual communication with departed ancestors or lovers would probably fall more under other types of magic, or there might be older, also non-Dunmer, traditions of ancestral veneration/communication - if I wanted something like that, I'd research these things, not join the Worm Cult.I think there's some facade to each of their public personas
I'd say you never truly forget your past. So in case of Vanny - certainly a lot. The only question is whether Mannimarco lost his sanity over the years/centuries. If he did, he might not remember his youth that well or might have a really warped view of it, and might now be actually, more or less, like we get to see him. But if he's still more or less sane, he too must still remember his friendship with Vanny.I see. A case of "they weren't doing it the right way."
Indeed.Well, that's good! And I can add another new (to me) word to my vocabulary, thanks to you!
I told you my goal is to spread knowledge.
Also, it was really a strange experience. Honestly, I had an afflatus in the moment I awoke. There was no dream related to it and it wasn't even a whole concept or just sentence, only a fragment. I jotted it down, of course. Let me look... "...and ascends from the reliquiary of witheredness."
Maybe it's a sign I should become a necromancer after all (now I imagine a necromancer accidentally raising the dead in his sleep)! That, or a poet (I mean, not that I haven't written things before...). Or maybe it just tells me I shouldn't discuss necromancers' poetry in detail right before going to bed @Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake2 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, and if Wormblood had to keep himself under wraps in a sleeper cell, stands to reason he'd have a lot of time on his hands and he may as well pen some propaganda.Vilify Vanny (perhaps more than necessary because of heartbreak/bitterness)
It does sound extremely bitter. And I honestly think it's not even that much about being cast out from Artaeum (as a necromancer king/god he would have to leave at some point anyway), it's about feeling rejected. He had imagined a, from his point of view, perfect, bright future of reigning with Vanny by his side, as an equal; he proposed that to him - and Vanny said no. That's like making a marriage proposal and your partner refuses.
Which adds to the pathos of the whole situation. He wanted to leave on his own terms and instead was punted aside. Though, actually, didn't Vanny think exile wasn't the right move? He got upset when the ritemaster did that because that just ended up giving Mannimarco more room for his "work." However, the double sting of being rejected by Vanny and then exiled by Iachesis could very well have hurt him.As far as propaganda goes, it really doesn't say much about what the average cultist will get out of joining. There's the idea of the freedom to practice necromancy and not be hounded by a mage guild always telling you what you can't do. And then the line about "generations reunited"--as if necromancy is just a simple tool to let you hang out with dearly departed loved ones. Both of those ideas could work on convincing people to join, but with how many members the cult has, it doesn't seem like nearly a good enough pitch.
Indeed. "Necromancers unite!" sounds good to a necromancer who dreams of a society where they could practice their necromancy freely, but I really don't think there are so many people who are secretly necromancers in the general population. The handling of corpses alone would be disgusting to most people. Some mage youth might dabble in it out of curiosity, maybe more with a dead animal they found somewhere in nature than with some human/mer corpse, but I think most wouldn't stick with it. What purpose does it even serve?
The "reunite with loved ones" part makes it even stranger, since, as we know, necromancy like the Worm Cult practices it is more about raising some unsentient corpse as a thrall to do what you order it to do. Something like a zombie. Things like actual communication with departed ancestors or lovers would probably fall more under other types of magic, or there might be older, also non-Dunmer, traditions of ancestral veneration/communication - if I wanted something like that, I'd research these things, not join the Worm Cult.
I think that's where propaganda does its best work: in vague statements meant to broadly appeal. "Freedom from the restrictions placed on mages!" would hook in quite a few whereas the details of what that entails (handling corpses) wouldn't even be mentioned. Same with reunited with dearly departed. Plenty of people would feel pulled by the notion they could talk to a loved one again, and their eagerness to do so might keep them from thinking of the specifics. If, in fact, they really don't know much about necromancy other than the general idea of "death magic," they might not realize it's more about zombies and less about communication with the dead.
Yet that alone doesn't account for the sheer number of people who join the Worm Cult. It also leaves out those who do understand some finer details of necromancy or are willing to research other methods of contacting the dead. Basically, those who join based on those two ideas must be somewhat rash, perhaps not too bright, and then maybe it's a case of "easy to join, hard (if not impossible) to leave." Where all the other members of the cult come from, I don't know.I think there's some facade to each of their public personas
I'd say you never truly forget your past. So in case of Vanny - certainly a lot. The only question is whether Mannimarco lost his sanity over the years/centuries. If he did, he might not remember his youth that well or might have a really warped view of it, and might now be actually, more or less, like we get to see him. But if he's still more or less sane, he too must still remember his friendship with Vanny.
Do you think Mannimarco has lost his sanity? I'm not saying he has or hasn't, just curious about this idea. I don't have a good enough idea of his mind over the ages. He certainly seems calmer in the flashbacks with Vanny, but when I was going through the main quest the first time, I never got the idea he wasn't sane (as far as sanity goes in Tamriel). Arrogant and shouty, determined, somewhat foolish, but not insane.Well, that's good! And I can add another new (to me) word to my vocabulary, thanks to you!
I told you my goal is to spread knowledge.
Also, it was really a strange experience. Honestly, I had an afflatus in the moment I awoke. There was no dream related to it and it wasn't even a whole concept or just sentence, only a fragment. I jotted it down, of course. Let me look... "...and ascends from the reliquiary of witheredness."
Maybe it's a sign I should become a necromancer after all (now I imagine a necromancer accidentally raising the dead in his sleep)! That, or a poet (I mean, not that I haven't written things before...). Or maybe it just tells me I shouldn't discuss necromancers' poetry in detail right before going to bed
Lol! Well, it's certainly got me intrigued. Become a necromancer poet and finish what you started!0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, and if Wormblood had to keep himself under wraps in a sleeper cell, stands to reason he'd have a lot of time on his hands and he may as well pen some propaganda.
What are Worm Cultists doing all day anyway? They seem to either sacrifice people from who knows where at the same dolmen 288 times a day, or they're standing around in some ruin waiting for an adventurer to kill them. Doesn't sound very fulfilling to meThough, actually, didn't Vanny think exile wasn't the right move? He got upset when the ritemaster did that because that just ended up giving Mannimarco more room for his "work."
That's what he said.I think that's where propaganda does its best work: in vague statements meant to broadly appeal. "Freedom from the restrictions placed on mages!" would hook in quite a few whereas the details of what that entails (handling corpses) wouldn't even be mentioned. Same with reunited with dearly departed. Plenty of people would feel pulled by the notion they could talk to a loved one again, and their eagerness to do so might keep them from thinking of the specifics. If, in fact, they really don't know much about necromancy other than the general idea of "death magic," they might not realize it's more about zombies and less about communication with the dead.
Not sure whether that works in a society where everyone seems to know what the Worm Cult does and people are rather afraid of them. I don't think you could convince any random commoner that it's just harmless spiritism or sciomancy. Especially if there's a Dark Anchor in front of the city gate and you have to listen to that annoying vacuum cleaner sound 288 times a day.Basically, those who join based on those two ideas must be somewhat rash, perhaps not too bright, and then maybe it's a case of "easy to join, hard (if not impossible) to leave."
Wonderful, a cult if idiot mages. I don't think such individuals would be very useful for Mannimarco's intensions. Maybe you could use them as sacrifices at dolmens, but other than that...?Do you think Mannimarco has lost his sanity? I'm not saying he has or hasn't, just curious about this idea. I don't have a good enough idea of his mind over the ages. He certainly seems calmer in the flashbacks with Vanny, but when I was going through the main quest the first time, I never got the idea he wasn't sane (as far as sanity goes in Tamriel). Arrogant and shouty, determined, somewhat foolish, but not insane.
Not completely irrationally insane, but he still might have a skewed perception because he seems to be obsessive about a few things and/or people. I wouldn't call that completely sane either.Lol! Well, it's certainly got me intrigued. Become a necromancer poet and finish what you started!
And so the world was doomed. Being a necromancer poet became pop and all the kids also wanted to become necromancer poets and accidentally summoned the great devourer of worlds.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, and if Wormblood had to keep himself under wraps in a sleeper cell, stands to reason he'd have a lot of time on his hands and he may as well pen some propaganda.
What are Worm Cultists doing all day anyway? They seem to either sacrifice people from who knows where at the same dolmen 288 times a day, or they're standing around in some ruin waiting for an adventurer to kill them. Doesn't sound very fulfilling to me
No, it doesn't. Sounds rather dreary.I think that's where propaganda does its best work: in vague statements meant to broadly appeal. "Freedom from the restrictions placed on mages!" would hook in quite a few whereas the details of what that entails (handling corpses) wouldn't even be mentioned. Same with reunited with dearly departed. Plenty of people would feel pulled by the notion they could talk to a loved one again, and their eagerness to do so might keep them from thinking of the specifics. If, in fact, they really don't know much about necromancy other than the general idea of "death magic," they might not realize it's more about zombies and less about communication with the dead.
Not sure whether that works in a society where everyone seems to know what the Worm Cult does and people are rather afraid of them. I don't think you could convince any random commoner that it's just harmless spiritism or sciomancy. Especially if there's a Dark Anchor in front of the city gate and you have to listen to that annoying vacuum cleaner sound 288 times a day.Basically, those who join based on those two ideas must be somewhat rash, perhaps not too bright, and then maybe it's a case of "easy to join, hard (if not impossible) to leave."
Wonderful, a cult if idiot mages. I don't think such individuals would be very useful for Mannimarco's intensions. Maybe you could use them as sacrifices at dolmens, but other than that...?
I must not be expressing myself all that well, because my point is that I don't think it works as effective propaganda except for initially. You know, at the start of the Worm Cult before everyone got wise to the real deal. Like if that poem was the first anyone had ever heard of the idea of the Order of the Black Worm, it might cause quite a commotion for a certain segment of the populace, and they would join. Then the word would get out it's all corpses and zombies and so forth and the intake of new cultists would dry up. I've said before, in a different thread, that I don't understand where the Worm Cult gets all its people and the resurgence of it after defeat is especially hard for me to believe. I even said in this one that the poem as propaganda doesn't account for the sheer number of people who join.
Idiot mages might not be what Mannimarco wants, but that's what he gets. Actually, yesterday I went to check out the subclassing quest, and all around the quest giver are lore books relating to the classes (they're not new, just collected in a convenient spot). I read the one about necromancers, penned by Mannimarco, and in it he's ranting away about stupid necromancers asking him where to find corpses. It was pretty amusing. See, he's surrounded by stupidity.Do you think Mannimarco has lost his sanity? I'm not saying he has or hasn't, just curious about this idea. I don't have a good enough idea of his mind over the ages. He certainly seems calmer in the flashbacks with Vanny, but when I was going through the main quest the first time, I never got the idea he wasn't sane (as far as sanity goes in Tamriel). Arrogant and shouty, determined, somewhat foolish, but not insane.
Not completely irrationally insane, but he still might have a skewed perception because he seems to be obsessive about a few things and/or people. I wouldn't call that completely sane either.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Ha, that's quite a summoning to hinge on an accident. A mispronunciation of a key phrase or word, I'm sure.
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Idiot mages might not be what Mannimarco wants, but that's what he gets.
Not unlike the average failed relationship among Telvanni.Actually, yesterday I went to check out the subclassing quest, and all around the quest giver are lore books relating to the classes (they're not new, just collected in a convenient spot). I read the one about necromancers, penned by Mannimarco, and in it he's ranting away about stupid necromancers asking him where to find corpses. It was pretty amusing. See, he's surrounded by stupidity.
Ah, yes, I remember that one. I actually felt sorry for him, despite also being amused. It's strange, actually, because it feels relatable, necromancer or not. Which would normally not be the thing to do if you want to portray someone as horrendously evil.Ha, that's quite a summoning to hinge on an accident. A mispronunciation of a key phrase or word, I'm sure.
The magic phrase is "poodle cake". Have you ever heard anyone say "poodle cake"? Now you know why.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
This sounds like a different story, possibly a more personal one? I don't know many Telvanni. There's Fyr, but does one really know him?Actually, yesterday I went to check out the subclassing quest, and all around the quest giver are lore books relating to the classes (they're not new, just collected in a convenient spot). I read the one about necromancers, penned by Mannimarco, and in it he's ranting away about stupid necromancers asking him where to find corpses. It was pretty amusing. See, he's surrounded by stupidity.
Ah, yes, I remember that one. I actually felt sorry for him, despite also being amused. It's strange, actually, because it feels relatable, necromancer or not. Which would normally not be the thing to do if you want to portray someone as horrendously evil.
His frustration certainly came through, and I did feel the barest moment of kinship with him over it.
I never have, and good to know.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know many Telvanni. There's Fyr, but does one really know him?
All I know is that Morian Zenas did not, or not well enough at least
His frustration certainly came through, and I did feel the barest moment of kinship with him over it.
It's funny actually to think about some of the mages that are somehow related to Artaeum and what became of them - seems they either get weird or depressed. Or sometimes both.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
Zenas always was in a world of his own. Though I did like the story that involved him that was in the original motif books--the ones for the races.
It's living in that cloistered society. You lose all perspective. Plus they play that role of watchers, or whatever. "We don't involve ourselves with petty mortal concerns." There's even a bit in one of the quests where you learn a Psijic is meant to leave all connections behind in order to achieve that grand impassivity.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zenas always was in a world of his own. Though I did like the story that involved him that was in the original motif books--the ones for the races.
Yes, I know the story and found it amusing. That behaviour fit Divayth too, even if it was a completely different perspective from what we had seen of him so far, back in TES3.It's living in that cloistered society. You lose all perspective. Plus they play that role of watchers, or whatever. "We don't involve ourselves with petty mortal concerns." There's even a bit in one of the quests where you learn a Psijic is meant to leave all connections behind in order to achieve that grand impassivity.
To me it sounds strangely idyllic just to observe and not intervene unless it's absolutely necessary, and to spend my days doing something I have interest and excel in, without having to care much for anything else. Some kind of Altmer Elysium.
Not much distraction of course if something troubles your life, like say, the spontaneous exilement of your best friend or lover. Even worse if you could probably not say a word about your distraughtness. Poor, poor Vanny.
But really, viewing what happened from a "lost innocence, being ousted from a remote, almost otherworldly (or even supramundane) paradise" standpoint is also an interesting line of thought. And with casting Mannimarco out, evil spread over the world.
Edited by Syldras on June 4, 2025 3:37AM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭It's living in that cloistered society. You lose all perspective. Plus they play that role of watchers, or whatever. "We don't involve ourselves with petty mortal concerns." There's even a bit in one of the quests where you learn a Psijic is meant to leave all connections behind in order to achieve that grand impassivity.
To me it sounds strangely idyllic just to observe and not intervene unless it's absolutely necessary, and to spend my days doing something I have interest and excel in, without having to care much for anything else. Some kind of Altmer Elysium.
Not much distraction of course if something troubles your life, like say, the spontaneous exilement of your best friend or lover. Even worse if you could probably not say a word about your distraughtness. Poor, poor Vanny.
But really, viewing what happened from a "lost innocence, being ousted from a remote, almost otherworldly (or even supramundane) paradise" standpoint is also an interesting line of thought. And with casting Mannimarco out, evil spread over the world.
I was thinking of the quest npc Josiah saying that as a Psijic, she knows she's not supposed to take an interest in what happens to her home and family, but it's hard to have to leave that behind. And the quest is structured to show that remaining neutral is the way to go, because otherwise what might you do with the power at your command.
I guess if you were born into that society (not sure if that happens) you might not think much of having to leave everything else behind, but if you came into it from a place you loved, it likely wouldn't be so easy, despite the appeal of being able to fully focus on studies.
How long did Vanny stick around Artaeum after Mannimarco was expelled? His founding of the mage guild was, in part, a reaction against the way the Psijic Order operated. I wonder if he had much time to brood on the matter before he was off and distracting himself with founding a guild.
So casting Mannimarco out of paradise resulted in evil in the world...where have I heard that story before? But it is interesting to think what might have happened if the Psijic Order had somehow contained Mannimarco rather than releasing him upon Tamriel. 1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was thinking of the quest npc Josiah saying that as a Psijic, she knows she's not supposed to take an interest in what happens to her home and family, but it's hard to have to leave that behind.
That's also one of the reasons Artaeum reminds me a bit of the original Elysium of Greek myth (not fully, but there are certainly a lot of aspects): The island of the blessed, remote from the world, where the ones favored by the gods, the righteous and the heroic, live forever in lush landscapes of eternal spring; it never rains or storms or snows, and people are forever in a state of peace, unbothered by the world. In some of the myths, it's considered a part of the underworld, so, to get there, you have to be dead - all relations to the world of the living severed.
It's generally interesting how much of ancient Greece there is in Altmer society. Not much the real ancient Greece (although in some aspects a bit), more their myths. All those idyllic blooming landscapes, a focus on ideal beauty, parts of their architecture, their theater culture where the actors always wear masks (it was the same in ancient Greek theatre - there should be no trace of the real person recognizable when performing), even place and character names. There are cases where you just have to swap 1 or 2 letters and you have a word or name from Greek antiquity.
Ritemaster Iachesis is interesting in that regard, too: Lachesis (with an L) is one of the Moirai, the goddesses or allegories of fate. Lachesis specifically is the one that measures and apportions the thread of life - which means she decides how long someone will have to live (the other two are Clotho who spins the thread and Atropos who cuts it when the time is over). Of course, considering Mannimarco's story, it must be a coincidence
It's funny that Chimer culture also has links to antiquity (then again, probably hardly surprising as they're descendants of the Aldmer), although in case of Almalexia it's not Greek, but Latin. "Alma" means gracious, "lex" is the law.I guess if you were born into that society (not sure if that happens) you might not think much of having to leave everything else behind, but if you came into it from a place you loved, it likely wouldn't be so easy, despite the appeal of being able to fully focus on studies.
Even if it's not shown that much in game, I'd expect Altmer upbringing to be very harsh. Not brutal, but strict and with the goal to excel (obviously, considering their beliefs and cultural ideals). If you're destined for Artaeum, you will probably be raised accordingly.
Also, for Vanny it was probably not that hard, as he didn't have a real family left anyway.How long did Vanny stick around Artaeum after Mannimarco was expelled? His founding of the mage guild was, in part, a reaction against the way the Psijic Order operated. I wonder if he had much time to brood on the matter before he was off and distracting himself with founding a guild.
There's no exact date in lore, but it seems it wasn't that long. Probably had enough after crying himself to sleep for a few weeks Of course, officially, he only left because he feared for Tamriel. Of course.So casting Mannimarco out of paradise resulted in evil in the world...where have I heard that story before?
Maybe I'm reading too much in it, I don't know, but it did remind me in a way, as one possible interpretation. But maybe I'm just dreaming.But it is interesting to think what might have happened if the Psijic Order had somehow contained Mannimarco rather than releasing him upon Tamriel.
Probably still sitting in a cell (or locked inside the traitor's vault?), unless someone, maybe Vanny (out of his own free will, or maybe even pushed by the Ritemaster - although he probably wouldn't have minded to be able to talk to Mannimarco somehow at least; knowing him locked up on the same island without being able to see or talk to him would probably have been hard - and who knew what that might have led to...), could have persuaded him - in endless discussions - to finally give up necromancy and choose a different path.
Of course, that doesn't mean things could have not ended the same way, just with him pretending to be righteous, moral and not under any circumstances a necromancer, and then leaving by himself, to cause the usual chaos we know in Tamriel.
Actually, that's another good question: Are you even allowed to leave? Or do you have to cause trouble to be expelled? Who knows how Vanny actually behaved after Mannimarco was cast out. Maybe the "left Artaeum to stop Mannimarco in Tamriel" story is just another lie - because "being cast out too for talking about Mannimarco to much, or maybe even criticizing his punishment" would be a little embarrassing
Edited by Syldras on June 4, 2025 4:51AM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake1 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I was thinking of the quest npc Josiah saying that as a Psijic, she knows she's not supposed to take an interest in what happens to her home and family, but it's hard to have to leave that behind.
That's also one of the reasons Artaeum reminds me a bit of the original Elysium of Greek myth (not fully, but there are certainly a lot of aspects)
Those are some interesting parallels. I'd heard of Elysium before but I doubt I would have made the connection to Artaeum. My knowledge of Greek myths is middling at best.I guess if you were born into that society (not sure if that happens) you might not think much of having to leave everything else behind, but if you came into it from a place you loved, it likely wouldn't be so easy, despite the appeal of being able to fully focus on studies.
Even if it's not shown that much in game, I'd expect Altmer upbringing to be very harsh. Not brutal, but strict and with the goal to excel (obviously, considering their beliefs and cultural ideals). If you're destined for Artaeum, you will probably be raised accordingly.
Also, for Vanny it was probably not that hard, as he didn't have a real family left anyway.
I think that's one of the reasons Josiah was the quest npc for that arc. Being Redguard, she wouldn't have been raised with the Altmer standards. I think there's even something in her quest dialogue that talks about how the Psijic Order doesn't usually accept humans, considering them too short-lived to be able to fully realize the potential of being in the order. But I may be mixing that up with something else--it was a long time ago that I did that quest.How long did Vanny stick around Artaeum after Mannimarco was expelled? His founding of the mage guild was, in part, a reaction against the way the Psijic Order operated. I wonder if he had much time to brood on the matter before he was off and distracting himself with founding a guild.
There's no exact date in lore, but it seems it wasn't that long. Probably had enough after crying himself to sleep for a few weeks Of course, officially, he only left because he feared for Tamriel. Of course.
Poor guy; he just can't quit Mannimarco.
I don't think it's out of the realm of possible interpretations. Mannimarco was a rebel, and did have grand ideas.But it is interesting to think what might have happened if the Psijic Order had somehow contained Mannimarco rather than releasing him upon Tamriel.
Probably still sitting in a cell (or locked inside the traitor's vault?), unless someone, maybe Vanny (out of his own free will, or maybe even pushed by the Ritemaster - although he probably wouldn't have minded to be able to talk to Mannimarco somehow at least; knowing him locked up on the same island without being able to see or talk to him would probably have been hard - and who knew what that might have led to...), could have persuaded him - in endless discussions - to finally give up necromancy and choose a different path.
Of course, that doesn't mean things could have not ended the same way, just with him pretending to be righteous, moral and not under any circumstances a necromancer, and then leaving by himself, to cause the usual chaos we know in Tamriel.
Actually, that's another good question: Are you even allowed to leave? Or do you have to cause trouble to be expelled? Who knows how Vanny actually behaved after Mannimarco was cast out. Maybe the "left Artaeum to stop Mannimarco in Tamriel" story is just another lie - because "being cast out too for talking about Mannimarco to much, or maybe even criticizing his punishment" would be a little embarrassing
I can see Vanny trying to persuade Mannimarco of his own volition. I don't know what the Ritemaster would have thought appropriate if they hadn't exiled Mannimarco. It was after all that went down that they removed the island from Tamriel, wasn't it? So if they had kept him prisoner, and had still removed the island, he wouldn't have had a chance to get back and cause mischief until Summerset and the return of the Isle. So Varen wouldn't have tried his thing with the amulet, and the plane meld wouldn't have gotten a boost, and...well, starting the Worm Cult in a Tamriel that still had an emperor would have been different.
As for being allowed to leave: did Leythen leave, or was he cast out, too?
Also, I don't know if I'm seeing things, but it seems some of your last paragraph wasn't in your original post but showed up in the quoted text. But "talking about Mannimarco too much" made me laugh thinking of the Ritemaster losing his patience with Vanny over one too many, "And another thing Mannimarco did..." conversation starters.
Edit to add: I am seeing things. Or not seeing them, as the case may be, because the full paragraph is there now, or maybe always was. Ah, it's late for me; I should go to sleep.Edited by metheglyn on June 4, 2025 5:30AM0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Poor guy; he just can't quit Mannimarco.
"I can fix him!" - Yes, Vanny, sure you can.I don't think it's out of the realm of possible interpretations. Mannimarco was a rebel, and did have grand ideas.
Maybe his Alaxon wasn't so much necromancy, but changing the world? Or offering/spreading knowledge, also forbidden knowledge, without limitations? I think the most crucial thing he ever said in ESO was really the dialogue part about, what was it, "The only lines are those you draw in your mind." This it is: Limitless freedom.I can see Vanny trying to persuade Mannimarco of his own volition. I don't know what the Ritemaster would have thought appropriate if they hadn't exiled Mannimarco. It was after all that went down that they removed the island from Tamriel, wasn't it? So if they had kept him prisoner, and had still removed the island, he wouldn't have had a chance to get back and cause mischief until Summerset and the return of the Isle. So Varen wouldn't have tried his thing with the amulet, and the plane meld wouldn't have gotten a boost, and...well, starting the Worm Cult in a Tamriel that still had an emperor would have been different.
It disappeared and reappeared several times throughout the eras. According to one lorebook it disappeared once more around the time when the Mages Guild was founded - so basically right after Vanny left, yes (Interesting actually that he founded the Mages Guild while he was still rather young - or were they actually much older than we assume them to be? They seemed quite young in the flashbacks, though, to me at least; young adults at most).
If they had imprisoned Mannimarco on Artaeum, who knows whether they had the island vanish again or not? Maybe they would have not and Mannimarco would have managed to flee somehow, causing the same events we see now.As for being allowed to leave: did Leythen leave, or was he cast out, too?
The Ritemaster officially sent him to Tamriel for investigations, and he just chose to "disappear".But "talking about Mannimarco too much" made me laugh thinking of the Ritemaster losing his patience with Vanny over one too many, "And another thing Mannimarco did..." conversation starters.
It's funny to imagine that. I know I might be totally wrong, but imagining Vanny as rather emotional and maybe even slightly naive in his youth (based on that poem calling him "warm and light" or what it was)... it's amusing.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
A commonly seen misconception when it comes to matters of the heart. Even Altmer hearts.I don't think it's out of the realm of possible interpretations. Mannimarco was a rebel, and did have grand ideas.
Maybe his Alaxon wasn't so much necromancy, but changing the world? Or offering/spreading knowledge, also forbidden knowledge, without limitations? I think the most crucial thing he ever said in ESO was really the dialogue part about, what was it, "The only lines are those you draw in your mind." This it is: Limitless freedom.
Interesting! Because his ultimate goal (becoming a god) wasn't tied to necromancy; he seemed to feel necromancy was the best way to get there. Or perhaps just unrestricted power in whatever form. He did seem to think no knowledge should be forbidden (wonder what Mora would make of that?). Changing the world to fit his vision (never mind that other people wouldn't want it) would be like the ultimate path to Alaxon. No other Altmer could possibly compare.I can see Vanny trying to persuade Mannimarco of his own volition. I don't know what the Ritemaster would have thought appropriate if they hadn't exiled Mannimarco. It was after all that went down that they removed the island from Tamriel, wasn't it? So if they had kept him prisoner, and had still removed the island, he wouldn't have had a chance to get back and cause mischief until Summerset and the return of the Isle. So Varen wouldn't have tried his thing with the amulet, and the plane meld wouldn't have gotten a boost, and...well, starting the Worm Cult in a Tamriel that still had an emperor would have been different.
It disappeared and reappeared several times throughout the eras. According to one lorebook it disappeared once more around the time when the Mages Guild was founded - so basically right after Vanny left, yes (Interesting actually that he founded the Mages Guild while he was still rather young - or were they actually much older than we assume them to be? They seemed quite young in the flashbacks, though, to me at least; young adults at most).
If they had imprisoned Mannimarco on Artaeum, who knows whether they had the island vanish again or not? Maybe they would have not and Mannimarco would have managed to flee somehow, causing the same events we see now.
I don't know if it's anywhere stated how long they were on Artaeum. We know Vanny was young when he got there; we don't know how old Mannimarco was. We also don't know how long they'd been friends by the time we saw the end of that relationship. (Or maybe it's more correct to say that I don't know). They did seem young in the flashbacks, but that may just be our perceptions.
That's the thing with changing one point in history: hard to say how everything else that followed would have happened. But if the Psijic Order had kept Mannimarco captive, it does seem he would have contrived an escape at some point, with or without Vanny's help.
Ah, right. So that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not a Psijic can just quit the order.But "talking about Mannimarco too much" made me laugh thinking of the Ritemaster losing his patience with Vanny over one too many, "And another thing Mannimarco did..." conversation starters.
It's funny to imagine that. I know I might be totally wrong, but imagining Vanny as rather emotional and maybe even slightly naive in his youth (based on that poem calling him "warm and light" or what it was)... it's amusing.
It is amusing, especially compared to how he is now, and I don't think it's too far off base. But it is something I want to see. Hmm...is the Bosmer still going to write a Mannimarco and Vanny story?1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Interesting! Because his ultimate goal (becoming a god) wasn't tied to necromancy; he seemed to feel necromancy was the best way to get there. Or perhaps just unrestricted power in whatever form.
I'm still wondering why he chose Molag Bal of all things to try to reach his goals.He did seem to think no knowledge should be forbidden (wonder what Mora would make of that?).
Probably happy Mannimarco didn't choose to replace himI don't know if it's anywhere stated how long they were on Artaeum. We know Vanny was young when he got there; we don't know how old Mannimarco was. We also don't know how long they'd been friends by the time we saw the end of that relationship. (Or maybe it's more correct to say that I don't know). They did seem young in the flashbacks, but that may just be our perceptions.
I think there's a lore source stating that Vanny was born in the "early 2nd era", but in an era consisting of 9 centuries, that's rather vague. The only other dated event is the founding of the Mages Guild in 2E 230.
In case of Mannimarco, many seem to believe the Aldmer claims, but those don't make any sense to me. An over 3000 year old man (older than anyone else there) being on apprentice level on Artaeum and happy they unlocked the vault for him (and his maybe 18-year-old friend)?! How would he even have become that old when still being rather low in rank (which indicates not being very powerful/skilled magically yet)? He certainly wouldn't have been able to prolong his life like that with his skills. Just makes no sense.
Calling himself "Aldmer" is clearly just braggery or myth-building - or maybe it should be seen as more of a philosophical notion of what he thinks he should be: back to the ancestors, back to godhood.
In any way, from their behaviour and rank in the flashbacks, they are teens or young adults to me, and I'll keep that interpretation unless someone could present me a reasonable explanation for something else. And based on this, I do find it remarkable that Vanny founded the guild while he was in his 20's at most.That's the thing with changing one point in history: hard to say how everything else that followed would have happened. But if the Psijic Order had kept Mannimarco captive, it does seem he would have contrived an escape at some point, with or without Vanny's help.
There are so many possibilities. Naive Vanny being manipulated by Mannimarco and helping him escape, or maybe even being persuaded at some point and they would escape together... Imagine Tamriel being plagued by not only one but two evil and powerful necromancers Why can't we see that in an alternate universe story?!It is amusing, especially compared to how he is now, and I don't think it's too far off base. But it is something I want to see.
I'd honestly love if we'd ever see something about Vanny in ESO that breaks his facade. Anything really. Some behaviour that makes us (or people who haven't thought much about his past) think "This is unexpected". Who knows, maybe he can be manipulative too, if it serves his goals?Hmm...is the Bosmer still going to write a Mannimarco and Vanny story?
I'm in contact with my Bosmer through dreamsleeve transmissions (he loves to tease me by sending me weird messages in the middle of the night) ... Let's say he's a little, uhm... overworked? Right now at least.
Edited by Syldras on June 4, 2025 6:13PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe Molag Bal was the one who made the initial offer, and Mannimarco thought, "I could use this for my own ends." Or maybe Bal was the only one receptive to Mannimarco's "team up" idea. Or maybe Mannimarco created an extensive flow chart, mapping out as many possibilities as he could depending on which daedric prince took him up on his offer, and statistically Molag Bal was the best choice.
Ha, I like the idea of a somewhat insecure Mora, relieved he didn't have to go up against Mannimarco.I don't know if it's anywhere stated how long they were on Artaeum. We know Vanny was young when he got there; we don't know how old Mannimarco was. We also don't know how long they'd been friends by the time we saw the end of that relationship. (Or maybe it's more correct to say that I don't know). They did seem young in the flashbacks, but that may just be our perceptions.
I think there's a lore source stating that Vanny was born in the "early 2nd era", but in an era consisting of 9 centuries, that's rather vague. The only other dated event is the founding of the Mages Guild in 2E 230.
In case of Mannimarco, many seem to believe the Aldmer claims, but those don't make any sense to me. An over 3000 year old man (older than anyone else there) being on apprentice level on Artaeum and happy they unlocked the vault for him (and his maybe 18-year-old friend)?! How would he even have become that old when still being rather low in rank (which indicates not being very powerful/skilled magically yet)? He certainly wouldn't have been able to prolong his life like that with his skills. Just makes no sense.
Calling himself "Aldmer" is clearly just braggery or myth-building - or maybe it should be seen as more of a philosophical notion of what he thinks he should be: back to the ancestors, back to godhood.
In any way, from their behaviour and rank in the flashbacks, they are teens or young adults to me, and I'll keep that interpretation unless someone could present me a reasonable explanation for something else. And based on this, I do find it remarkable that Vanny founded the guild while he was in his 20's at most.
I'm on board with your interpretation here. They really did seem young, and Vanny being so talented so young also fits with established lore (and gives him a little more room to constantly refer to himself as the Great Mage, though honestly it's a habit he should try to break himself of). I admit that I initially believed Mannimarco's Aldmer claims (boy was I an easy mark for his self-aggrandizing rhetoric!) until you pointed out the many flaws with the idea.That's the thing with changing one point in history: hard to say how everything else that followed would have happened. But if the Psijic Order had kept Mannimarco captive, it does seem he would have contrived an escape at some point, with or without Vanny's help.
There are so many possibilities. Naive Vanny being manipulated by Mannimarco and helping him escape, or maybe even being persuaded at some point and they would escape together... Imagine Tamriel being plagued by not only one but two evil and powerful necromancers Why can't we see that in an alternate universe story?!
Lol, why not indeed!It is amusing, especially compared to how he is now, and I don't think it's too far off base. But it is something I want to see.
I'd honestly love if we'd ever see something about Vanny in ESO that breaks his facade. Anything really. Some behaviour that makes us (or people who haven't thought much about his past) think "This is unexpected". Who knows, maybe he can be manipulative too, if it serves his goals?
Maybe we will if we ever find out where he's been taken and manage to free him. Though I don't hold out much hope, considering his behavior last time I helped him out a jam.Hmm...is the Bosmer still going to write a Mannimarco and Vanny story?
I'm in contact with my Bosmer through dreamsleeve transmissions (he loves to tease me by sending me weird messages in the middle of the night) ... Let's say he's a little, uhm... overworked? Right now at least.
"Overworked" huh? Such a very convenient term for a Telvanni to use. But if you say so, I'll believe it, and stop dropping references to him into the conversation in the hope he'll appear with a lovely story for me to read.
I do like the idea of him teasing you with weird messages in the middle of the night. How very Bosmer of him!
Also, dreamsleeve transmissions is another new bit of lore for me to enjoy.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe Molag Bal was the one who made the initial offer, and Mannimarco thought, "I could use this for my own ends." Or maybe Bal was the only one receptive to Mannimarco's "team up" idea. Or maybe Mannimarco created an extensive flow chart, mapping out as many possibilities as he could depending on which daedric prince took him up on his offer, and statistically Molag Bal was the best choice.
I was wondering about it more from an artistic perspective - writers would often choose to combine things that fit together, symbolically. But in this case, I don't get it. There had never been any relation between Molag Bal and necromancy until ESO was released (and there they just put it into a few dialogues or lorebooks as an unexplained statement). Why not Namira with her darkness and decay theme? Or why not Vaermina? Turning reality into an unending nightmare would also be interesting for a necromancer god, I guess.Lol, why not indeed!
I still wish they had actually shown us different realities of Tamriel in the Ithelia storyline. My favorites to explore in that regard would still be a Tamriel without the disappearance of the Dwemer, and one without the rise of the Tribunal and the conversion of the Chimer into Dunmer, but "Vanny chose to stand by Mannimarco's side" would certainly also be a very interesting story to tell."Overworked" huh? Such a very convenient term for a Telvanni to use. But if you say so, I'll believe it, and stop dropping references to him into the conversation in the hope he'll appear with a lovely story for me to read.
Overworked of course. Some things I teach him are rather demanding for the mind; obscure rituals, brain-racking theories, how to brew the perfect tea,... Or what do you think I've done to the poor f'lah?I do like the idea of him teasing you with weird messages in the middle of the night. How very Bosmer of him!
2.51 a.m., incoming transmission -- "Master Syldras? Are you already sleeping?" -- end of transmission
3.13 a.m., incoming transmission -- "Master?! Where are the sausages?! I'm hungry and I can't find any sausages in your pantry!!!" -- end of transmission
3.29 a.m., incoming transmission -- "I didn't find sausages but now I'm reading a book about Khajiit humour. Do you already know this joke:"@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Maybe Molag Bal was the one who made the initial offer, and Mannimarco thought, "I could use this for my own ends." Or maybe Bal was the only one receptive to Mannimarco's "team up" idea. Or maybe Mannimarco created an extensive flow chart, mapping out as many possibilities as he could depending on which daedric prince took him up on his offer, and statistically Molag Bal was the best choice.
I was wondering about it more from an artistic perspective - writers would often choose to combine things that fit together, symbolically. But in this case, I don't get it. There had never been any relation between Molag Bal and necromancy until ESO was released (and there they just put it into a few dialogues or lorebooks as an unexplained statement). Why not Namira with her darkness and decay theme? Or why not Vaermina? Turning reality into an unending nightmare would also be interesting for a necromancer god, I guess.
Maybe they were working a less subtle angle: both Molag Bal and Mannimarco like domination and scheming.Lol, why not indeed!
I still wish they had actually shown us different realities of Tamriel in the Ithelia storyline. My favorites to explore in that regard would still be a Tamriel without the disappearance of the Dwemer, and one without the rise of the Tribunal and the conversion of the Chimer into Dunmer, but "Vanny chose to stand by Mannimarco's side" would certainly also be a very interesting story to tell.
I wish they had, too. That is what I was thinking might happen. Not a lot, but one or two."Overworked" huh? Such a very convenient term for a Telvanni to use. But if you say so, I'll believe it, and stop dropping references to him into the conversation in the hope he'll appear with a lovely story for me to read.
Overworked of course. Some things I teach him are rather demanding for the mind; obscure rituals, brain-racking theories, how to brew the perfect tea,... Or what do you think I've done to the poor f'lah?
How should I know? The only clues I've gleaned about what activities your "guests" participate in are: hair washing, screaming, cultist-napping, cultist-napping sack making, and lying on the beach drinking Jagga.I do like the idea of him teasing you with weird messages in the middle of the night. How very Bosmer of him!
2.51 a.m., incoming transmission -- "Master Syldras? Are you already sleeping?" -- end of transmission
3.13 a.m., incoming transmission -- "Master?! Where are the sausages?! I'm hungry and I can't find any sausages in your pantry!!!" -- end of transmission
3.29 a.m., incoming transmission -- "I didn't find sausages but now I'm reading a book about Khajiit humour. Do you already know this joke:"
Nocturnal habits, I see. Well, I dare say it's nothing more than you deserve! But, I'm curious: did you know the joke?1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe they were working a less subtle angle: both Molag Bal and Mannimarco like domination and scheming.
Just like the average Telvanni.
Is it even domination if an individual can't disobey anyway? For example because it's a rotting zombie?How should I know? The only clues I've gleaned about what activities your "guests" participate in are: hair washing, screaming, cultist-napping, cultist-napping sack making, and lying on the beach drinking Jagga.
Sounds like a fun life, doesn't it?Nocturnal habits, I see. Well, I dare say it's nothing more than you deserve! But, I'm curious: did you know the joke?
Of course I did. Unfortunately, I can't post it here. It's a bit difficult to translate into non-mer languages.
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
Well, no. But remember he did give us that little transparent blue picture show of everyone bowing down to him, and they all looked like they were still alive, so that was domination of some sort.
Is mind control a thing in Tamriel? I was trying to think of an example, but came up blank.
All I will say is: the Bosmer seems to enjoy it.
Well that is very unfortunate!0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, no. But remember he did give us that little transparent blue picture show of everyone bowing down to him, and they all looked like they were still alive, so that was domination of some sort.
Bowing down? That's more adoration than domination, and to get that he probably would have just... wait, now I get it: It's all Vanny's fault. Vanny did not show him enough attention back then! He clearly felt neglected and unseen, which hurt his Altmer pride, and unfortunately, he had not the best (or most social) skills to, uhm, compensate for that. Evil, obstreperous, arrogant, shameless Vanny indeed!Is mind control a thing in Tamriel? I was trying to think of an example, but came up blank.
The evil Telvanni from Sharp's quest tried something like that; and also Dwemer tonal generators may have that effect (although they work more like a drug, causing pleasant feelings - which is remarkable considering their horrendous sound - and getting people addicted). If I had the intention to mass-mindcontrol all of Tamriel, I'd just build a huge tonal generator.
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Well, no. But remember he did give us that little transparent blue picture show of everyone bowing down to him, and they all looked like they were still alive, so that was domination of some sort.
Bowing down? That's more adoration than domination, and to get that he probably would have just... wait, now I get it: It's all Vanny's fault. Vanny did not show him enough attention back then! He clearly felt neglected and unseen, which hurt his Altmer pride, and unfortunately, he had not the best (or most social) skills to, uhm, compensate for that. Evil, obstreperous, arrogant, shameless Vanny indeed!
You're determined to blame poor Vanny, I see. Maybe I should have said kneeling before. Kneeling/bending the knee, is very much a subservient act.Is mind control a thing in Tamriel? I was trying to think of an example, but came up blank.
The evil Telvanni from Sharp's quest tried something like that; and also Dwemer tonal generators may have that effect (although they work more like a drug, causing pleasant feelings - which is remarkable considering their horrendous sound - and getting people addicted). If I had the intention to mass-mindcontrol all of Tamriel, I'd just build a huge tonal generator.
Why do I get the idea you have one of those under construction somewhere in your tower?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're determined to blame poor Vanny, I see. Maybe I should have said kneeling before. Kneeling/bending the knee, is very much a subservient act.
But it doesn't necessarily stem from domination (believe me, I'm a Telvanni), it might also happen out of these people's free will. Because they're happy! Happy for Tamriel having become Coldharbourized; happy that, uhm, I don't know, don't people like glowy things? Water in Coldharbour is very glowy! Also, it might be exhilarating if you see your stupid tax collector getting eaten by a daedroth on the way to your house (or what ever remained of your house).Why do I get the idea you have one of those under construction somewhere in your tower?
I am a collector of all things Dwemer, so of course, I might also be in possession of a few parts that could, among many other things, be used to build a tonal generator. I'm just a curious person, I value learning, there's nothing to worry about.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭You're determined to blame poor Vanny, I see. Maybe I should have said kneeling before. Kneeling/bending the knee, is very much a subservient act.
But it doesn't necessarily stem from domination (believe me, I'm a Telvanni), it might also happen out of these people's free will. Because they're happy! Happy for Tamriel having become Coldharbourized; happy that, uhm, I don't know, don't people like glowy things? Water in Coldharbour is very glowy! Also, it might be exhilarating if you see your stupid tax collector getting eaten by a daedroth on the way to your house (or what ever remained of your house).
Regardless of any individual's reason for kneeling, might not Mannimarco see that as him having dominion over them? I mean, it was the picture he showed me; I didn't choose the image. And while using various daedra to take out one's enemies might be satisfying, don't you think everyone would get tired of blue?Why do I get the idea you have one of those under construction somewhere in your tower?
I am a collector of all things Dwemer, so of course, I might also be in possession of a few parts that could, among many other things, be used to build a tonal generator. I'm just a curious person, I value learning, there's nothing to worry about.
That list of Dwemer parts you wanted me to collect for you is making more sense now. Now I just need to figure out what to do with this information.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of any individual's reason for kneeling, might not Mannimarco see that as him having dominion over them? I mean, it was the picture he showed me; I didn't choose the image.
Maybe he's just happy he finally gets attention that evil Vanny didn't give him. I'm happy too if my Bosmer brings me tea. Doesn't mean I assert dominance over that little fellow.And while using various daedra to take out one's enemies might be satisfying, don't you think everyone would get tired of blue?
I think it's a nice color.
But you're right somehow; I think the sulphur smell of Coldharbour might be a little annoying after a while... Although, no, you'll probably just get used to it, after a while.That list of Dwemer parts you wanted me to collect for you is making more sense now. Now I just need to figure out what to do with this information.
I'd suggest you to bring me the requested parts. I pay well.
Edited by Syldras on June 5, 2025 3:25PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Regardless of any individual's reason for kneeling, might not Mannimarco see that as him having dominion over them? I mean, it was the picture he showed me; I didn't choose the image.
Maybe he's just happy he finally gets attention that evil Vanny didn't give him. I'm happy too if my Bosmer brings me tea. Doesn't mean I assert dominance over that little fellow.
Something about this statement doesn't add up. *ponders suspiciously*
Happens to all of us non-Telvanni now and then.I think the sulphur smell of Coldharbour might be a little annoying after a while... Although, no, you'll probably just get used to it, after a while.
I like blue, too, but only blue, all the time? As for the smell, considering what the cities of Tamriel must smell like anyway, not sure sulphur would be so bad.
Would money really do me any good if I just became one of your tonal generator thralls?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Something about this statement doesn't add up. *ponders suspiciously*
The Bosmer told you living here is like being on vacation. What reasons do you have to question that?I like blue, too, but only blue, all the time?
I find it soothing.As for the smell, considering what the cities of Tamriel must smell like anyway, not sure sulphur would be so bad.
See, another problem solved by the Planemeld and another reason for the people of Tamriel to thank Mannimarco!Would money really do me any good if I just became one of your tonal generator thralls?
How about that: Instead of gold you'll get very effective earmuffs?@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
I don't have a reason, and yet something tells me I should have one. *shakes head in confusion*
The Worm Cult should add this to their propaganda sheet.
Hmm...that might work. My ears do get cold sometimes, and earmuffs could help with that as well. I did promise to unearth an automated hair-brushing device for the poor contented Bosmer, so perhaps I will grab those components after all.0