Nerf VD to where it can only hit a player ONE time

darvaria

Iriidius wrote: »

VD and RoA are not countering ballgroups

Exactly. And I doubt to see ANYTHING that ever counters ball groups. The only "counter" is not to be in Cyro or if you are not anywhere near them. Let them have Arrius but STOP feeding them kills. FTSIO if you have to get out, even if there is a queue.

AngryNecro

before shouting about a bad RoA or VD you need to clarify if you use Wrath of Elements xD Because if there's anything broken, it's this stuped stick. It looks like i have to run this stuped pve arena, otherwise already tired of Sorc with this stick.
RoA, VD, DC is super fine stop lie.

xylena_lazarow

AngryNecro wrote: »

before shouting about a bad RoA or VD you need to clarify if you use Wrath of Elements

One of the easiest procs to counter. You can literally just move out of its range, among a million other counters. The telegraph is a giant laser that's impossible to miss and easy to LoS, even a small hill breaks it. The up front damage is low, needs to stack with a ton of other dots, and it takes 6-8 seconds to build up enough pressure to kill someone.

If you die to something that takes 6 seconds to kill, skill issue. If you die to someone gambling for an invisible instant 200k worth of RoA automated VD procs, there is no skill on either side of that.

darvaria

I ONLY die to VD. Nothing else and it hits 4-6 times with a 48K to 68K hit. NOTHING in game should hit for more than 20K total and even 20K is questionable. If I die at other times, it is multiple player attacks.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

before shouting about a bad RoA or VD you need to clarify if you use Wrath of Elements

One of the easiest procs to counter. You can literally just move out of its range, among a million other counters. The telegraph is a giant laser that's impossible to miss and easy to LoS, even a small hill breaks it. The up front damage is low, needs to stack with a ton of other dots, and it takes 6-8 seconds to build up enough pressure to kill someone.

If you die to something that takes 6 seconds to kill, skill issue. If you die to someone gambling for an invisible instant 200k worth of RoA automated VD procs, there is no skill on either side of that.

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance but follow you so you stay in range. With a player sticking to you you cantry creating distance whole duration without breaking it and not just take full dmg but also not dealing any dmg. So trying to run out on without LoS on even ground just makes it worth and is trap. 6 seconds while enaugh time to react doesnt matter if active defense will not save you. You cant block dot dmg nor dodge it except for initial hit which can just be repeated until it hits.

fluffybunny

I just think it’s weird that you log off after 2 deaths lol. This set shouldn’t be nerfed just because it broke your streak.

xylena_lazarow

fluffybunny wrote: »

I just think it’s weird that you log off after 2 deaths lol. This set shouldn’t be nerfed just because it broke your streak.

I'll log after 1 death if it's Rushing Agony. It's not about KDA, it's about fun, and Rushing Agony is not fun.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance

This is the part where skill comes in. Obviously the Vate user will try to stick to you, so you need to have the skill to disengage, and a build that supports it. If you are lacking either of those things, that's a skill issue that's gonna pop up all over the place, not just against Vate users, but against melee gankers, Acuity burst Wardens, etc.

AngryNecro

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance

This is the part where skill comes in. Obviously the Vate user will try to stick to you, so you need to have the skill to disengage, and a build that supports it. If you are lacking either of those things, that's a skill issue that's gonna pop up all over the place, not just against Vate users, but against melee gankers, Acuity burst Wardens, etc.

very entertaining surface theories xD

El_Borracho

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I like VD and Rush of Agony just as they are. They are fun sets to play and there are counters to both>>>DON'T STACK.

They are good at countering zergs and interrupting ball groups from staying together(sometimes).

Yeah, because the ROA lag warriors never surf the zerg.

The funny part is where ZoS nerfed the sets that killed zergs, like Azure and Plaguebreak, because they were "overperforming in PVE." HAHAHAHAHA. Then they gave us ROA. Maybe the devs are zerglings...

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

fluffybunny wrote: »

I just think it’s weird that you log off after 2 deaths lol. This set shouldn’t be nerfed just because it broke your streak.

I'll log after 1 death if it's Rushing Agony. It's not about KDA, it's about fun, and Rushing Agony is not fun.

I also have no problem dying in fair fight against nontoxic players but if a group decides my life is theirs just because they saw and outnumber me and there is no chance to win or escape it makes me want to quit.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance

This is the part where skill comes in. Obviously the Vate user will try to stick to you, so you need to have the skill to disengage, and a build that supports it. If you are lacking either of those things, that's a skill issue that's gonna pop up all over the place, not just against Vate users, but against melee gankers, Acuity burst Wardens, etc.

Than it isnt one of the easiest procs to counter like you claimed.
If with build that supports it you mean the typical movement tools most builds have than good luck creating distance with them if your opponent has them too.
As a sorcerer you can streak out and as a nb you can cloak to break vateshran if they not have preemptitive detect but on other classes if you cast RAT than stun them they will still probably be on you again before you break it.

darvaria

"Don't stack" means never getting on rams, never standing on flags, never repairing ..... remain as a wall warrior, far away from all other players. I've finally gotten out of the habit of doing any of those. I throw down a ram and bubble and step back as other players come up.

And I NEVER join any group in Cyro now because I do not want to have to be in close proximity with other players. But is this way to play? Not really much fun and I spend less than 30 minutes a day now at Cyro .... if I go at all. I've accepted this is not going to change so the best counter is just not to be there. If a ball is incoming in open field, I port out and log off.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

darvaria wrote: »

"Don't stack" means never getting on rams, never standing on flags, never repairing ..... remain as a wall warrior, far away from all other players. I've finally gotten out of the habit of doing any of those. I throw down a ram and bubble and step back as other players come up.

And I NEVER join any group in Cyro now because I do not want to have to be in close proximity with other players. But is this way to play? Not really much fun and I spend less than 30 minutes a day now at Cyro .... if I go at all. I've accepted this is not going to change so the best counter is just not to be there. If a ball is incoming in open field, I port out and log off.

Maybe try BG's you might have a more fun time with the rulesets you make for yourself.
That being said, just because you choose to play this way doesn't mean that the game must change to fit around you. You have many choices as to how to play and what systems to engage in.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you

This is called outplaying the opponent. Performing game actions to disallow the opponent from executing their gameplan. You've got 10 seconds to break the most obvious laser ever and all you need to do is go around a corner or behind a tree. This is nowhere near comparable to the random invisible instant death caused by RoA/VD. There isn't even an exchange of game actions between players, just an automated proc set and a dice roll. The RoA user might as well close their eyes.

When players can't tell the difference between obvious pressure strats that give you 4-6 seconds to figure out how to counter them, and random instant death with no consistent counterplay at all, it can be hard to have conversations.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you

This is called outplaying the opponent. Performing game actions to disallow the opponent from executing their gameplan. You've got 10 seconds to break the most obvious laser ever and all you need to do is go around a corner or behind a tree. This is nowhere near comparable to the random invisible instant death caused by RoA/VD. There isn't even an exchange of game actions between players, just an automated proc set and a dice roll. The RoA user might as well close their eyes.

When players can't tell the difference between obvious pressure strats that give you 4-6 seconds to figure out how to counter them, and random instant death with no consistent counterplay at all, it can be hard to have conversations.

Breaking Vateshraan Beam might be easy IF THERE IS A TREE OR CORNER NEARBY which is probable if you choose your ground and wait at a ressoursse tower for (PvE) opponents but if you get attacked on open field while travelling there is often no object to LoS and break beam.

LoSing in 1v1 is looked down so much that it is probably more honorable(and much more effective) to call other players to Xv1 your opponent in many players(not mine) opinion.
I also don’t see many players in Alikr LoSing in the wayshrine, most rather take full dmg of vateshraan.

I also wasnt the one comparing vateshran with RoA but just disagreed that it is one of the easiest procs to counter (when there are many you can block and dodge once with obvious visual or AOEs you can walk out without getting followed). I fully support nerfing RoA.
Time to counter doesnt matter if the counter doesnt work, if Rush of Agony was unblockable and had 100m range or 15m&following you at 140% player movement speed 10 more seconds to react would not help either.
Vateshraan also already did 10x% of its dmg if you break it after x seconds.

cuddles_with_wroble

Being hit for a combined 40k VD procs even tho I blocked the pull but I still get 1 shot never fails to feel worse than anything else in PvP

Urzigurumash

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Being hit for a combined 40k VD procs even tho I blocked the pull but I still get 1 shot never fails to feel worse than anything else in PvP

Yeah and maybe I'm wrong but while RoA increased this it didnt invent it. It came from, well where do we start assessing the massive increase in damage since its all time low circa late 2019 during the NMA Potatoes era

1. proc scaling
2. proc critting
3. the extra 1k baseline spell damage
4. breach buffs (? maybe that was an unnerf)
5. magic damage taken on Heavy Armor
6. what else, we could probably go on

Look I think VDs scaling is too aggressive and/or other procs arent aggessive enough. VD is dominating the ecosystem of good OW builds and that aint right

cuddles_with_wroble

Urzigurumash wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Being hit for a combined 40k VD procs even tho I blocked the pull but I still get 1 shot never fails to feel worse than anything else in PvP

Yeah and maybe I'm wrong but while RoA increased this it didnt invent it. It came from, well where do we start assessing the massive increase in damage since its all time low circa late 2019 during the NMA Potatoes era

1. proc scaling
2. proc critting
3. the extra 1k baseline spell damage
4. breach buffs (? maybe that was an unnerf)
5. magic damage taken on Heavy Armor
6. what else, we could probably go on

Look I think VDs scaling is too aggressive and/or other procs arent aggessive enough. VD is dominating the ecosystem of good OW builds and that aint right

Yes I agree fully, VD and the buff sets scaling it into oblivion is the core issue. Everyone always brings up RoA and DC but those things won’t inherently kill you if your built correctly and a lot of builds can even survive an ult dump. No one lives multi VD procs tho, it’s instant uncountable death due to someone else’s bad build

ShutUpitsRed

Don't stack then? I only ever see people die/die myself to VD when I'm not paying enough attention to spreading out. Avoid low health people and you're fine.

Joy_Division

Sometimes I wonder if people on these forums even play the game. Right, I just won't stack in an AvAvA oriented game in which the only points awarded are for capturing objectives. I'll never repair a door, never stand on a flag, defend a castle interior, just allows enemies to pass through breeches/chokepoints, and actively avoid coordinating and cooperating with people who I am supposed to be working together with toward a common objective, I'll totally ignore the entire premise of AvAvA and pretend it's just like dueling in Stormhaven.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

Breaking Vateshraan Beam might be easy...

...as it's only 15m long, you can just sprint out of range. Stun the opponent first if needed.

CameraBeardThePirate

AngryNecro wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance

This is the part where skill comes in. Obviously the Vate user will try to stick to you, so you need to have the skill to disengage, and a build that supports it. If you are lacking either of those things, that's a skill issue that's gonna pop up all over the place, not just against Vate users, but against melee gankers, Acuity burst Wardens, etc.

very entertaining surface theories xD

They're right though. If you have a build that can't do any of the counters to Vate (create space either by rooting/stunning someone, speeding yourself up, streaking away, or purging), you're going to die over and over and over again to more than just Vate. Literally anyone can slot a Purge now. Literally anyone can slot a Snare Removal now, or a Streak, or a Fossilize, etc etc. There's no reason you should be dying enough to Vate to consider it OP.

Iriidius

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AngryNecro wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

You cant just move out of range because the user will not allow you to create distance

This is the part where skill comes in. Obviously the Vate user will try to stick to you, so you need to have the skill to disengage, and a build that supports it. If you are lacking either of those things, that's a skill issue that's gonna pop up all over the place, not just against Vate users, but against melee gankers, Acuity burst Wardens, etc.

very entertaining surface theories xD

They're right though. If you have a build that can't do any of the counters to Vate (create space either by rooting/stunning someone, speeding yourself up, streaking away, or purging), you're going to die over and over and over again to more than just Vate. Literally anyone can slot a Purge now. Literally anyone can slot a Snare Removal now, or a Streak, or a Fossilize, etc etc. There's no reason you should be dying enough to Vate to consider it OP.

Purge and Snare removal only remove slowing effects that the vateshraan user doesnt have or removes himself too and he probably has speedup or streak too so you need all of them only to get at the same speed as vateshraan frost user and keep distance rather than be faster and create distance.
Streak can break vateshran but is it healthy for the game if every player should slot streak now?
And does a backbar weapon taking only 2 setslots really have to kill players that often or be totally uncounterable. Even if you counter it successfully you loose 2 out of every 15 seconds where you cant do something else.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Breaking Vateshraan Beam might be easy...

...as it's only 15m long, you can just sprint out of range. Stun the opponent first if needed.

Nice that you pick a few of my words out of context and combine them with a tactic I already told you before doesnt work.
The vateshran procsorc can sprint too and break free before you create 15m distance and either streak into you than burst or shoot you crystalfrag or spectral bow into your back while you cant use defense.
Somehow you keep assuming the vateshraan user are all trash and cant use the same tools as you to prevent you from creating distance.
Maybe you are one of these „good“ players avoid fighting other „good“ players and only farm starter.

Iriidius

Urzigurumash wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Being hit for a combined 40k VD procs even tho I blocked the pull but I still get 1 shot never fails to feel worse than anything else in PvP

Yeah and maybe I'm wrong but while RoA increased this it didnt invent it. It came from, well where do we start assessing the massive increase in damage since its all time low circa late 2019 during the NMA Potatoes era

1. proc scaling
2. proc critting
3. the extra 1k baseline spell damage
4. breach buffs (? maybe that was an unnerf)
5. magic damage taken on Heavy Armor
6. what else, we could probably go on

Look I think VDs scaling is too aggressive and/or other procs arent aggessive enough. VD is dominating the ecosystem of good OW builds and that aint right

Urzigurumash wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Being hit for a combined 40k VD procs even tho I blocked the pull but I still get 1 shot never fails to feel worse than anything else in PvP

Yeah and maybe I'm wrong but while RoA increased this it didnt invent it. It came from, well where do we start assessing the massive increase in damage since its all time low circa late 2019 during the NMA Potatoes era

1. proc scaling
2. proc critting
3. the extra 1k baseline spell damage
4. breach buffs (? maybe that was an unnerf)
5. magic damage taken on Heavy Armor
6. what else, we could probably go on

Look I think VDs scaling is too aggressive and/or other procs arent aggessive enough. VD is dominating the ecosystem of good OW builds and that aint right

VD is pretty balanced and fair when used by solo bombers against zergs, you usually have to afk stack to get killed by one and even then often survive when noone in the stack is squishy.
Playing as zerg against solo players should have a counter as otherwise the solo players never grow in number but also leave because they’ve no chance and only get farmed.
It gets ridiculous when a group of 12 buffing each others stats and healing to emperorlvl and stacking without having to fear VD because things deadly to everyone else dont kill them uses RoA to pull often outnumbered spreadout players together, ultidump them and proc VD punishing them for stacking and zerging(as they are more than one) when nobody except a huge zerg or other ballgroups has chance to kill this group of 12 which usually also zergs solo players.

xylena_lazarow

Iriidius wrote: »

The vateshran procsorc can sprint too and break free before you create 15m distance and either streak into you

If you aren't slotting mobility tools, then don't expect to outmaneuver fast players, doesn't matter whether they're running vate staff or Hundings. Anyone can slot a stun and RAT. Anyone can run Streak themselves now.

Iriidius

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

The vateshran procsorc can sprint too and break free before you create 15m distance and either streak into you

If you aren't slotting mobility tools, then don't expect to outmaneuver fast players, doesn't matter whether they're running vate staff or Hundings. Anyone can slot a stun and RAT. Anyone can run Streak themselves now.

You keep repeating your arguments ignoring the counter arguments I already gave you.

Veteshraan user can slot movement tools too so while not having a movement makes you slower having a movement tool will still only get you at same speed and trying to kite while he is trying to get closer will only keep the distance equal if you have movement tool and reduce it if you have not.

Stunning every 15 seconds means opponent is on stun immunity cooldown and you can rarely stun him for other reasons and without high ping vateshraan user can break free before you can break vateshraan.

YandereGirlfriend

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if people on these forums even play the game. Right, I just won't stack in an AvAvA oriented game in which the only points awarded are for capturing objectives. I'll never repair a door, never stand on a flag, defend a castle interior, just allows enemies to pass through breeches/chokepoints, and actively avoid coordinating and cooperating with people who I am supposed to be working together with toward a common objective, I'll totally ignore the entire premise of AvAvA and pretend it's just like dueling in Stormhaven.

Live by the zerg, die by the zerg. That's your choice.

Without sets like this you have mindless "who's zerg is bigger" deterministic fights a la Vengeance.

Oblivion_Protocol

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Live by the zerg, die by the zerg. That's your choice.

Without sets like this you have mindless "who's zerg is bigger" deterministic fights a la Vengeance.

Five people repping a door isn't a zerg.
Six people standing on a ram isn’t a zerg.
Four people tryongn to flip a flag isn’t a zerg.

You speak as if VD is only used by individuals to punish large zergs, when in reality it’s being used by ball groups to punish everyone, including a small-man groups of friends just looking for good fights.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Without sets like this you have mindless "who's zerg is bigger" deterministic fights a la Vengeance.

Before VD was in the game we used to play as 8-12m vs 24-48m groups np. VD just made it easier.

But I don't think it should be removed with the current game state, if anything modify it so that it does less damage if your in a group bigger than 4m if you are concerned about larger groups using it.

CameraBeardThePirate

The only real issue with VD is the fact that there are tons and tons of players running under 25k health that take it very personally if you tell them to slot more health. They don't realize they're walking VD procs and act like you trying to give them advice is an affront to God.

The options to fix that issue would be to have an in-game warning about having a higher health value in PvP (which likely wouldn't work very well) or scale VD based on how much health the player that died had.