Feedback on subclasses, meta, and players.

Artem_gig

I'll try to be as brief as possible, but still.
1. I like multi-classes, just like I like scribing. However, meta spoils them, turning mechanics with a huge variety into a monotonous standard. Something is more effective than another, even if it doesn't look so interesting, they will choose it anyway. In this case, the most important aspect of the rpg genre comes to naught. Namely, role-playing. I can't play the way I want to because I have to play the way the meta dictates.
2. Meta in the game. No matter how the developers claim that meta is not the only way to play, they are wrong. Apparently, the developers themselves do not know how they are doing due to the lack of communication between different departments. Most hardmodes are impassable without meta. This turns a unique fight with a serious opponent into exactly the same fight as all other players. I want developers to achieve difficulty through different mechanics, not the amount of damage and HP that cannot be passed without a certain DPS threshold.
3. The developers are still right about something. The players themselves see nothing but meta, they are not interested in playing as a unique character, they are interested in playing as a character with the most effective DPS. So I urge the players to give up on the meta. And require developers to simplify HM content in terms of meta requirements. And to capture the opportunity to pass their tests with any prepared character. Lower the required damage threshold from 100 DPS to 50. Complicate bosses with mechanics tied to timings, not hp bosses. Don't you really want to play through what you like, rather than what the meta dictates?

GeneralGrundmann

Concerning the topic, because I wasn't able to watch the stream:

If you multiclass skill lines besides your main class, are there any trade-offs? For example, you don't get the subclass skill lines passives?

Dragonnord

Artem_gig wrote: »

I can't play the way I want to because I have to play the way the meta dictates.

Not true.

Artem_gig wrote: »

Most hardmodes are impassable without meta.

Not true either.

Artem_gig wrote: »

The players themselves see nothing but meta, they are not interested in playing as a unique character, they are interested in playing as a character with the most effective DPS.

Also not true. Probably 90% of players don't play the meta.
 

SerafinaWaterstar

@Dragonnord

You think that HM are possible without using a meta build? Really? Please explain more & provide examples, as it is not been my experience, or that of many friends who have done hard modes.

90% of players may not play the meta - but the OP was talking about where they are expected to and I have to agree that it makes for a duller game when everything is a dps race.

Personally, I’d like there to be a increase in viable builds & not a dependance on 2 or 3 builds someone has theorycrafted & everyone follows.

GloatingSwine

The problem with meta builds isn't that you need them, it's that a sufficiently vocal number of people always think you need them and, if their ideas catch on, tend to make players using anything else unwelcome even if it is actually just as good because they don't know that it is just as good, they only know that it isn't meta.

SerafinaWaterstar

GloatingSwine wrote: »

The problem with meta builds isn't that you need them, it's that a sufficiently vocal number of people always think you need them and, if their ideas catch on, tend to make players using anything else unwelcome even if it is actually just as good because they don't know that it is just as good, they only know that it isn't meta.

Fab post!

Melivar

Hard modes and Trifecta groups are always going to have a meta at least when they are new and fresh.

These things are made for the .05 to 1% of the player base that wants/needs that extra challenge. Even when playing with the meta all it takes is for one person to have split second lack in focus and boom someone dies and they start over from the beginning.

Power creep, nerfs and other factors lead to these things being possible to the 5% crowd eventually, or allow top end groups to be able to assist one or two others at a time in achieving the rewards should they wish.

Subclasses will certainly form a new meta but so does any potential new set or class when they come out but that's ok change is always good.

Subclasses will also allow more players than I would have thought experience some of these other skill lines and classes because they simply only have 1 character and that's great too.

Dragonnord

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

@Dragonnord

You think that HM are possible without using a meta build? Really? Please explain more & provide examples, as it is not been my experience, or that of many friends who have done hard modes.

90% of players may not play the meta - but the OP was talking about where they are expected to and I have to agree that it makes for a duller game when everything is a dps race.

Personally, I’d like there to be a increase in viable builds & not a dependance on 2 or 3 builds someone has theorycrafted & everyone follows.

It's about knowing the mechanics, more than using a meta build.

99% of hard modes don't have a dps check, so as long as you do the required mechanics, you can complete a hard mode with old Hunding's Rage or Julianos set.

Meta builds are for score pushings or to make things easier and quicker in any content, and yes, sometimes dps checks are a thing, but even in those cases off-meta builds can still do.

Anything and everything can be completed with off-meta builds.
 

Stx

You can’t have a perfect world where there is lots of build freedom and diversity but also near equal balance. It has never existed in any game and won’t.

The best you can do is make your game fun with as much balance as possible. The thing about meta players is that they complain about homogenization but they are also the ones who have every class leveled and geared and play the best weapons best race best everything. So they are already homogenized. I don’t think a fear of homogenization at the top level is a reason to keep the game the same and not add new fun things.

GloatingSwine

Dragonnord wrote: »

Meta builds are for score pushings or to make things easier and quicker in any content, and yes, sometimes dps checks are a thing, but even in those cases off-meta builds can still do.

Everything and anything can be completed with off-meta builds.

100% true and completely irrelevant, because once the meta builds become the accepted mode of play they become the required price of entry for content.

This is nothing to do with power level vs. content and everything to do with player behaviour and accepted play, because everyone wants everyone else to give them an easy ride and the best proxy for whether they will get that easy ride is whether everyone is playing the meta.

alpha_synuclein

Artem_gig wrote: »

Most hardmodes are impassable without meta.

Not true.
Most HMs are passable with reasonably coherent builds.
Few latest ones are less probable though.

Artem_gig wrote: »

The players themselves see nothing but meta, they are not interested in playing as a unique character, they are interested in playing as a character with the most effective DPS.

And what exactly is wrong with that?
Our ways of having fun are not created equal. If building an unique characters is what brings you fun in ESO, that's your thing. But fair share of more group content oriented players take their enjoyment from beating the hardest content possible as a team. Individual builds are irrelevant, because they are not the source of fun. If you don't like that approach, play with people that share yours.