Change of Khajiit language

Malyore · April 10

The thread I'd mentioned this got closed shortly after I asked, and so I'm starting a new thread to focus on this new topic specifically.

Why has the Khajiit dialect been changing recently? Going from phrases like "This one" into "I". Particularly with the two companions Ember and Zerith. What is the design reason for this change? What are the implications of the change? Has it been done... elsewhere?

Syldras · April 10

Malyore wrote: »

The thread I'd mentioned this got closed shortly after I asked, and so I'm starting a new thread to focus on this new topic specifically.

Why has the Khajiit dialect been changing recently? Going from phrases like "This one" into "I". Particularly with the two companions Ember and Zerith. What is the design reason for this change? What are the implications of the change? Has it been done... elsewhere?

I was actually just about to reply to you in the other thread, then it got closed before I could send the message (What a pity, there would have been much more to discuss!).

So... Yes, I've also been wondering about it, specifically about the reasons. I had been wondering whether maybe someone thought that the Khajiit's speech was "too alien" and erasing the typical Khajiit speech mannerisms in the Khajiit companions would make them "more relatable" to the big audience? But, when it comes to that, I'm really not sure if that would be true. I always thought that people are drawn to fantasy media because they want to see a different world with different and foreign cultures and traditions, not a copy of the real world. Or has that changed somehow?

Although, the habit of talking about oneself in third person actually does exist in a few real world languages, such as Japanese (I think that's a more well-known example). In India it also exists, and it's by some considered a sign of enlightenment. Might someone found it culturally insensitive to assign that to a fictional Asian-inspired cat people race? I, personally, don't find it insulting, but I can only speak for myself.

As for your last question: The Khajiiti adoptive son of Donolon the Breton baker (the one from the anniversary cake quest) also talks like this. In his case, I don't mind it and I find it believable, because he was raised by Donolon from a young age on. And while he probably spoke like most Khajiit in early childhood, being around humans for years probably changed his speech habits. That's likely and realistic; it also happens in real life, especially if there's an emotional connection between people. There are many cases where, over the course of time, someone unintentionally adopts their spouse's accent or dialect while originally having no roots in that region.

UrQuan · April 10

Zerith-var mentions that the Khajiit dialect in ESO is different than it was in his time:
"This one … er … no, I am sorry. I try, but I cannot adopt this way of speaking. It is closer to a direct translation of the dialect spoken today, but Ta'agra and Cyrodiilic are closer companions now. In my time, they were mere acquaintances."
As far as Ember goes, she wasn't raised amongst Khajiit, so it's not surprising that she doesn't use the typical Khajiit dialect, and it's not the only time we see characters who don't speak in the typical way that most people of their race speak because they were raised in other cultures.

AScarlato · April 10

UrQuan wrote: »

Zerith-var mentions that the Khajiit dialect in ESO is different than it was in his time:
"This one … er … no, I am sorry. I try, but I cannot adopt this way of speaking. It is closer to a direct translation of the dialect spoken today, but Ta'agra and Cyrodiilic are closer companions now. In my time, they were mere acquaintances."
As far as Ember goes, she wasn't raised amongst Khajiit, so it's not surprising that she doesn't use the typical Khajiit dialect, and it's not the only time we see characters who don't speak in the typical way that most people of their race speak because they were raised in other cultures.

Specifically with Zerith-Var, the other Khajiit in his same questline do speak traditionally. Most of the Khajiit still do.

I think the characters that don't both being companions that you interact with on a regular basis as opposed to just during a quest make it feel more widespread than it is.

LunaFlora · April 10

they are 2 individual characters out of hundreds others.
Ember didnt grow up around everyone else speaking in third person.
Zerith grew up in the first era.

i am pretty sure any other Khajiit that speak in first person also didnt grow up around other khajiit, you know like Zhasim from Orsinium and Southern Elsweyr
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Zhasim

with the companions a lot of them aren't like what people stereotypically see their race as, i like it. though it's totally possible the third Khajiit companion does talk in third person.

AScarlato · April 10

LunaFlora wrote: »

they are 2 individual characters out of hundreds others.
Ember didnt grow up around everyone else speaking in third person.
Zerith grew up in the first era.

i am pretty sure any other Khajiit that speak in first person also didnt grow up around other khajiit, you know like Zhasim from Orsinium and Southern Elsweyr
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Zhasim

with the companions a lot of them aren't like what people stereotypically see their race as, i like it. though it's totally possible the third Khajiit companion does talk in third person.

As a complete aside, I wouldn't mind if they started making our companions closer approximations of their race than not.

"I'm not like other Khajiit" or whatever race the character is can be interesting, but not when its most companions. At least Isobel seems on Theme for who she is.

Malyore · April 10

Syldras wrote: »

I had been wondering whether maybe someone thought that the Khajiit's speech was "too alien" and erasing the typical Khajiit speech mannerisms in the Khajiit companions would make them "more relatable" to the big audience?

Although, the habit of talking about oneself in third person actually does exist in a few real world languages... Might someone found it culturally insensitive to assign that to a fictional Asian-inspired cat people race?

Insightful as always, Syldras. I'd wondered if there was real world concerns tied to this change, or if it truly was just a design choice for the companions to be safer.

That being said, I'm surprised as many races speak Cyrodiilic as they do.

UrQuan wrote: »

Zerith-var mentions that the Khajiit dialect in ESO is different than it was in his time...
As far as Ember goes, she wasn't raised amongst Khajiit, so it's not surprising that she doesn't use the typical Khajiit dialect.

I'm aware of the story reasons. My focus is on the design reason. Ember makes sense to me well enough, but did we know anything about ancient Ta'agra before Zerith, or was this info about the language invented for Zerith? If it's the latter, my focus is on why that change was decided to be implemented. And will such changes continue, now that they're on two very prominent, very recent ESO Khajiit?

Malyore · April 10

AScarlato wrote: »

As a complete aside, I wouldn't mind if they started making our companions closer approximations of their race than not.

"I'm not like other Khajiit" or whatever race the character is can be interesting, but not when its most companions. At least Isobel seems on Theme for who she is.

I'm hesitant to engage with asides about other companions, as that's part of what lead the last thread to be closed. However I will say I haven't engaged with much of the companions besides Ember and Zerith. Sharp doesn't fit my character, but I suspect I'll personally like him. And Isobel I just kinda tune out and slowly level her up for her passive. The fact that she was willing to let her friend get forced into a marriage she didn't want, just because Isobel was too worried about her own knightly honor to be willing to pick a lock, tells me she is not someone I want "allied" with me.

With how popular Zerith, Sharp, and I think Isobel are though, I'm suspecting it's those that are closer to their kinly ties that do well with audiences, rather than the quirky ones.
I wish we had someone as confident and strong as Serana from Skyrim. I didn't realize until in hindsight how decent of a character she was. Felt much more equal of a person. And she was true to her vampire heritage yet different enough to be workable with the player in almost all forms.

This circles me back into the modded Khajiit in Skyrim that everyone loves. I can't remember his name, but I think he's purple. Jarzo, Juno? or something like that? As he's a very popular companion, does he speak more Cyrodiilic, or more Khajiiti?

Syldras · April 10

Malyore wrote: »

I'm surprised as many races speak Cyrodiilic as they do.

That's something I've also been thinking about every now and then: How much more ZOS could make of the native languages of Tamriel's different cultures!? And wouldn't it be interesting to come across npcs who might not speak Cyrodiilic well? It could also be a way to pronounce the different cultures more, to emphasize their differentness, while they might know a common language to interact with travellers and such. Right now it doesn't even feel like most of the population actually speaks in a language foreign to them when interacting with npcs from other cultures or with the player character, does it? I sometimes imagine my Dunmer main speaks Dunmeri while travelling Morrowind or when meeting other (Morrowind-native) Dunmer elsewhere, and only speaks Cyrodiilic abroad or to people of other nations. There are so many things they could make of this, but... that would probably be all to complex, that would be a different game.

LunaFlora wrote: »

they are 2 individual characters out of hundreds others.
Ember didnt grow up around everyone else speaking in third person.
Zerith grew up in the first era.

It is explained and makes sense in both cases (if we accept Zerith's statement about the evolvement of the Khajiit language... it seems a bit untypical for it to evolve like that if I think about the real world - I know a few historical languages - , but okay, Tamriel is not the real world, so I'm fine with it).

The question remains why ZOS went for this in case of both companions. But then we're back at the old question why the companions are designed so "untypically" most of the time.

Barovia87 · April 10

AScarlato wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

they are 2 individual characters out of hundreds others.
Ember didnt grow up around everyone else speaking in third person.
Zerith grew up in the first era.

i am pretty sure any other Khajiit that speak in first person also didnt grow up around other khajiit, you know like Zhasim from Orsinium and Southern Elsweyr
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Zhasim

with the companions a lot of them aren't like what people stereotypically see their race as, i like it. though it's totally possible the third Khajiit companion does talk in third person.

As a complete aside, I wouldn't mind if they started making our companions closer approximations of their race than not.

"I'm not like other Khajiit" or whatever race the character is can be interesting, but not when its most companions. At least Isobel seems on Theme for who she is.

I thought Azandar was fun as essentially an offbeat, magical, Redguard Grandpa. And Bastian only seems atypical from an Imperial stereotype in that he's a sweet cinnamon roll instead of a tyrannical, warmongering jerk, so I forgive him. Tanlorin was just sort of... meh...? I got the most "the writers tried way too hard" with them, and it hasn't landed for me (yet, I guess - I admittedly haven't done all their quests). They are so Quirky™(!), Fun™(!), and also Traumatized™(!), and not like other Altmer™(!)...! No one part of it is "the problem" per say, it's just... a lot.

Ember, Mirri, Sharp, Isobel, and Zerith-Var all seem very culturally appropriate, to me, given their circumstances/context/etc.

whitecrow · April 10

Malyore wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This circles me back into the modded Khajiit in Skyrim that everyone loves. I can't remember his name, but I think he's purple. Jarzo, Juno? or something like that? As he's a very popular companion, does he speak more Cyrodiilic, or more Khajiiti?

J'zargo from the Mages' Guild? Can't remember...

whitecrow · April 10

Maybe they thought it would be annoying to hear all the time.

AScarlato · April 10

Malyore wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

As a complete aside, I wouldn't mind if they started making our companions closer approximations of their race than not.

"I'm not like other Khajiit" or whatever race the character is can be interesting, but not when its most companions. At least Isobel seems on Theme for who she is.

And Isobel I just kinda tune out and slowly level her up for her passive. The fact that she was willing to let her friend get forced into a marriage she didn't want, just because Isobel was too worried about her own knightly honor to be willing to pick a lock, tells me she is not someone I want "allied" with me.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, and I understand your point of view, but Isobel went above and beyond for Aurelia, giving up a prestigious boon that was not easily earned selflessly for her freedom. I respect that she didn't compromise her own morals in doing so, and a lot of Isobel's subsequent quests center around cleaning up messes caused by Aurelia. I kind of liked that she stuck to her guns, so we didn't get the morally grey knight over who she is.

In general on the topic though, I think when people request certain types of companions they are looking for cultural aspects that they enjoy about the race they are requesting. I don't think in general people would like the race being a character model only with none of the culture. At that point requesting a certain race doesn't seem meaningful.

Malyore · April 10

whitecrow wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

This circles me back into the modded Khajiit in Skyrim that everyone loves. I can't remember his name, but I think he's purple. Jarzo, Juno? or something like that? As he's a very popular companion, does he speak more Cyrodiilic, or more Khajiiti?

J'zargo from the Mages' Guild? Can't remember...

Inigo! That was his name. I had to Google it

Serophous · April 10

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the further a khajiit is born from Elsweyr or Khajiit settlements, the less they'll speak like a normal Khajiit

JemadarofCaerSalis · April 10

As much as it would be interesting to run into people who don't speak cyrodiliic well, I can understand why they didn't do it.

Can you imagine the logitistical nightmare it would be to try to make them understood, when you are already trying to appeal to a large audience, who all have different levels of understanding already. As examples, look at how many people interpret the companions' lines differently.

Either they will be speaking broken Cyrodillic, meaning that certain words can be lost, which could impact other's ability to understand the questline (since that is typically what we would see this type of character in) or they would need to not only come up with several new languages, at the very least enough to be able to logically insert random foreign words into the dialogue.

I know we have some examples of this already, but if it were more widespread, they would need to make sure it was consistent across the characters.

What I think would be great to have, instead, would perhaps be something like 'khajiit's first primer' or something similar, where it gives a small smattering of vocabulary for the native languages of the various races. Not in Cyrodiliic, but rather in the native language.

In general on the topic though, I think when people request certain types of companions they are looking for cultural aspects that they enjoy about the race they are requesting. I don't think in general people would like the race being a character model only with none of the culture. At that point requesting a certain race doesn't seem meaningful.

To be honest, this is what Tanlorin feels like to me. A character that could have been made any race. Being an altmer doesn't really factor into the characteristics, and they are so *un* stereotypical of an Altmer that it is hard for me to remember at times that TAnlorin IS an altmer.

I would honestly love it if we got all sorts of different companions. I know what type of companion I am eagerly waiting for, which I am afraid I won't ever get, so the more companions the merrier.

Even if it just broke down into say three companions per 'trope' per race. IE, we have a stereotypical male khajiit, stereotypical female khajiit, stereotypical non-binary khajiit. Then we have Ember, Zerith and a new khajiit that doesn't fit the stereotypes.

That would be a lot of companions there, but hopefully there would be enough of a spread that everyone would be able to find a good fit for their preferences. (though, I am greedy, I would want more, especially if none of the companions were really want I wanted).

I also think part of the reason why they might make the companions non-stereotypical, especially with regards to the speech pattern is that, unlike quest NPCs that you speak to and then are done with after their quest is over, these are companions that are meant to travel with you, and certain speech patterns can easily become grating when you constantly hear them over and over again.

Even just general dialogue is grating (look at the hatred for a certain city shouter) when you hear it over and over and over again, add in speech patterns that a great many people aren't used to hearing, and it can be even more annoying.

I am not saying I *agree* with the reasoning, if this is part of it, just saying I can understand it. As I said, I wouldn't mind more stereotypical companions, just as I wouldn't mind more unstereotypical companions (just not to the extent Tanlorin is. That is just going to an extreme, just as I wouldn't want a companion that leans so far into their stereotypes that they become caricatures. Extremes are rarely fun or make interesting characters.)

JemadarofCaerSalis · April 10

Thinking about this, I would love to learn more about the shift from Zerith's speech patterns to the 'This one' pattern, and why it came about. (in world shift, not the reasons behind the developers doing this)

Was it a way for Khajiit to make themselves seem 'lesser' in the eyes of slavers, so they could get away with things? (ie, making people underestimate their intelligence). Was it a way to sort of brag? (I could see it both ways honestly). Was there a completely different reason for it?

Because, as I said in the other thread, we know that it isn't an inherent trait (which makes sense, since it is a language pattern), but learned trait, so Khajiit that aren't raised by other khajiit don't have that speech pattern. So, what caused that shift in language?

Syldras · April 11

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As much as it would be interesting to run into people who don't speak cyrodiliic well, I can understand why they didn't do it.
Can you imagine the logitistical nightmare it would be to try to make them understood, when you are already trying to appeal to a large audience, who all have different levels of understanding already. As examples, look at how many people interpret the companions' lines differently.
Either they will be speaking broken Cyrodillic, meaning that certain words can be lost, which could impact other's ability to understand the questline (since that is typically what we would see this type of character in) or they would need to not only come up with several new languages, at the very least enough to be able to logically insert random foreign words into the dialogue.

That's why I said a game that focuses strongly on that aspect of communication and communication difficulties would be a different game. It's nothing for a (not meant derogatorily) mass market RPG that has to appeal to millions of people already to make it fundable, I understand that well. I just think it might be an interesting aspect for an rpg in general. Things would feel more alien, the player would get more of the atmosphere of being in a foreign and exotic (and maybe not easily understandable - verbally and culturally) location. It might even be really eerie; imagine you come across some remote village, the atmosphere's somehow gloomy and you don't even have a real clue what people are talking about and what they might be planning... Travelling Tamriel under that premise would be something I would probably enjoy. Not that I don't enjoy it right now! But it would be interesting and something else for once.

In general, there's so much atmosphere building that can be done with language alone. I'm not sure whether it's the translation I'm playing, but it feels like ESO isn't doing this a lot. Of course, there are sometimes nobles or scholars who talk a little differently, but often there's no big difference no matter where you are. Although I'd expect the people inside a harbour tavern to sound differently then, let's say, the marketeers inside town, let alone the townsfolk of higher social classes. But that's a different topic, I guess.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I also think part of the reason why they might make the companions non-stereotypical, especially with regards to the speech pattern is that, unlike quest NPCs that you speak to and then are done with after their quest is over, these are companions that are meant to travel with you, and certain speech patterns can easily become grating when you constantly hear them over and over again.

For me, it's mostly the voice and intonation, and they have a few cases that I personally find horrible. Unconventional grammar on the other hand, especially if it isn't random but follows a grammar, just a different one, hinting at a specific different culture - I don't mind that at all.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Thinking about this, I would love to learn more about the shift from Zerith's speech patterns to the 'This one' pattern, and why it came about. (in world shift, not the reasons behind the developers doing this)

Was it a way for Khajiit to make themselves seem 'lesser' in the eyes of slavers, so they could get away with things? (ie, making people underestimate their intelligence). Was it a way to sort of brag? (I could see it both ways honestly). Was there a completely different reason for it?

Because, as I said in the other thread, we know that it isn't an inherent trait (which makes sense, since it is a language pattern), but learned trait, so Khajiit that aren't raised by other khajiit don't have that speech pattern. So, what caused that shift in language?

I don't even think there neccessarily have to be reasons for such a shift. I mean, I don't know a real language right now that had that shift; changing courtesy forms or honorifics - yes, but that's a little different than changing from one person to another. Although, I might read into regional dialects, as I think there's also one in my country where an uncommon grammatical person is used... But I can't remember details right now. Might be interesting why it developed like that, if there's a reason at all.

Anyway, in the real world, there are different reasons for speaking of oneself in third person (I think illeism is the term for that, from the Latin "ille" which means "that one"). In some cultures it's mostly a thing of children and younger adults and it's somehow considered "cute". Then, in others, it's seen as a trait of enlightened people (so basically the opposite), symbolizing the detachment from the ego. So the reasons and interpretations vary a lot. And sometimes it's even arbitrary.

I doubt a little though that ZOS will do a deep-dive into linguistics. It's probably not a vastly interesting topic to many people. Also it reminds me of my dreadful lessons on consonant shifts. If I ever hear about Proto-West Germanic voiceless stop consonants spirantizing again...