Keeping vengeance as campaign after test ends

Wallar333

Vengeance got verry good feedback from the bigger part of the community, which is sad, cos its just a test, which wasnt ment to be balanced pvp or something, but its still MUCH more fun than normal cyro campaigns.

Why ? Well from the bigger part because it made new players to be equal to endgame players in everything, except game experience, which led to WHOLE community to enjoy pvp.
But even many veteran players likes this kind of cyro more, than normal one, and that is caused by:

1. NO unbalanced crazy sets.
2. NO crazy crosshealing/shielding
3. NO ballgroups
And also its sad to say it, by this pvp feels more balanced than normal one.

Equality of players is much closer there, than its in normal cyro, which is just poisoned with few ballgroups just playing their own game. Crosshealing is almost absent there OR its too weak to even be recognized, its definitely not gamebreaking as it is in normal cyro where are all those heals even shielded by DMG shields, which is destroying any fun of pvp.

I would vote to keep this campaign to let ppl actually have fun playing PVP. I would just change a few things. I would suggest to do it like this:

1. Weapon, armor and race passives to be active
2. Switch all UNLIMITED things for regular inventory stuff, so ppl would still have to craft/buy potions etc.
3. Food buffs to be active
4. Changing current max stats to 2/3
5. Changing builds to provide their armor, enchants and trait bonuses, but keeping all SET bonuses BLOCKED
6. Changing cyro test spells to regular class ones but WITHOUT class passives
7. Alliance war skill lines to be active
8. Keeping champion points BLOCKED for obvious reasons

This would make cyro much more fun, and much more balanced and tactical. Its just my suggestion, i can surely be changed for the better, someone can sure have a good idea how it could be possible to make it even better, while also such campaign would need to be tested, which im sure MANY community members would like to help with testing this, and making such campaign to live.

Doing this, i also suggest to merge gray host and blackreach campaigns into ONE keeping it alliance locked.

Im ready for those negative comments of ballgroups/bad mechanics enjoyers, who will get angry reading this, cos if THIS happens, there would be no one playing normal campaings except for them But hey, you like such gameplay, so you all can let us have some fun, and you can play your ballgroup vs ballgroup unbalanced unfunny **** cyro you like.

robertlabrie

If having this as an alternative boosts player engagement and retention then I'm all for it. If this is replacing "classic" cyrodiil then strongly opposed.

Interestingly I had expected larger player caps to reduce faction stacking and spread the action out but that'd didn't happen. Instead of 30 v 30 at a keep it's now 100 v 100 at a keep.

RealLoveBVB

It's Sunday and last when I checked the population, then I saw 2 bars AD, 3 bars EP and 2 bars DC. That's the current population of the usually 3 campaigns.
That should be feedback enough, that players are not really interested in this campaign, else everything would be poplocked on a Sunday.

Wallar333

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

It's Sunday and last when I checked the population, then I saw 2 bars AD, 3 bars EP and 2 bars DC. That's the current population of the usually 3 campaigns.
That should be feedback enough, that players are not really interested in this campaign, else everything would be poplocked on a Sunday.

Not sure if this campaign dont have bigger population cap than normal campaigns tho, would need to be answered by devs.

Also theres passive exp bonus active now, so i guess a lot of ppl are just doing some pve. Another thing is time, its still populated enough if you count that its not the evening time, which would tell you more. As for your 3 campaigns populated, i usually saw just gray host with 2 faction bars during the weekend days, its populated during evenings only usually, and its caused by usually just ballgroups who fight each other, so nothing for solo players.
Other campaigns are usually dead, even if populated with two bars, you usually are like 20v20 during sieges, even during weekend evenings. Gray host is only one campaign usually alive, while also theres many ppl who dont actually like that kind of cyro, theres simply no other way to play it, cos as i said, other campaigns are dead or almost dead.

This also depends on where you play, and on what, i can only say for PC/EU. But i dont really expect it to be verry different on others.

And as for replacing cyro for what im suggesting, then no, i dont want to REPLACE anything. Actually i would be much happier if all those ballsgroup/bad mechanics enjoyer noobs stays in normal cyro campaigns, leaving the rest of us to have some fun in this alternative campaign.

darvaria

Keep Vengeance and add GH back in it's original form and see how it goes.

Vengeance is "no cp"
With battle leveling and the 30/70/30 stats, Vengeance is really a viable under 50 option (which is ALWAY empty)
Black Reach is just a place for players that want a huge pop advantage so they can PVDoor the map and emp. No one will miss it.
Vengeance is a place for players that do NOT want farm gear and test builds. They just want to PVP. So keep it for these types of players. Leave GH for ball groups, bombers and small man groups of players that want to 1 v 15 and tower hump.
Vengeance is bringing in players that don't normally PVP. Last night I played on DC a bit and literally 3/4 of the zone did not know they couldn't pick up AD scrolls when both DC scrolls were held by EP. This is definitely a "new" pvp player base. Let them have Vengeance as an alternative.

Joy_Division

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

It's Sunday and last when I checked the population, then I saw 2 bars AD, 3 bars EP and 2 bars DC. That's the current population of the usually 3 campaigns.
That should be feedback enough, that players are not really interested in this campaign, else everything would be poplocked on a Sunday.

No, ZOS should not gleam our feedback from this. If only because that is comparing a the Live pop cap of 60-80 to the cap of hundreds that are for the test.

ZOS instead carefully look at the data, take a deep investigation of what people have said in these forums and other means of communication such as PvP discords, reddit, content creators, or even reading the plethora of opinions given in zone chat, and carefully consider how to go forth, both for Live and for further development/improvement of the Vengeance test. It's clear a lot of people like Vengeance and quite a few don't, or at least have serious reservations. Let's not oversimplify things.

xylena_lazarow

Vengeance pop bars are worth a lot more than the normal pop bars.

It has its issues with the lack of skills and sieges, but seems like a good foundation and good place for noobs to learn, honestly good enough that it should really replace the dead and useless nocp and u50 camps.

SeaGtGruff

The test campaign has been fun for me when my particular faction has enough of a coordinated population to successfully attack and defend, but the restriction on skills has severely curtailed my ability to contribute in any meaningful way when I'm not being backed up by other players of my faction. For instance, I can't solo-capture a resource most of the time, especially on one of my two mains. And whenever my faction has the smallest population of the three-- which seems to be during the hours that I normally play-- soloing resources is about the only thing I've got left to do in Cyrodiil (aside from town dailies and Fighters Guild bounty missions, which are disabled in the test campaign).

If this test campaign were to become a regular campaign as-is, I would either continue to choose my existing home campaign (Grey Host) if it were still available, or would be forced to give up PvP on my two mains and try to PvP on alts using different Classes, because the Class skills which Vengeance limits me to are just not cutting it for me on my two mains-- except when I'm able to zerg with a crowd, which hasn't been the case this weekend. And if I can't PvP on Friday and Saturday nights due to huge and unstoppable zergs of enemy players and too few players of my own faction being logged in, then I'm out.

Even when we do have players on, they seem to be spread out all over the map pursuing pointless goals. Case in point, the other night I was trying to help too few players defend our home tri-keeps, but judging from chat there were a lot of players focused on trying to recapture one of our scrolls from the far side of Cyrodiil, which made absolutely no sense to me because even if they'd managed to grab the scroll they would have had to run it across the entire breadth of Cyrodiil with the dominant enemy alliance controlling every single keep they they'd need to run past, and with the gate protecting that particular scroll being wide open. Sheer madness! But what do I know, I'm only a casual player and an occasional PvPer. /shrug

Wallar333

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vengeance pop bars are worth a lot more than the normal pop bars.

It has its issues with the lack of skills and sieges, but seems like a good foundation and good place for noobs to learn, honestly good enough that it should really replace the dead and useless nocp and u50 camps.

Exactly, it makes pvp much more favorable towards new players, especially cos they wont need to farm/craft and try sets. But also from veteran perspective, i would rather play this kind of cyro campaign, than ordinary nonsense weve had till now.
While also i suggest to add normal class and alliance war skills into it, as i mentioned before.

Also important thing to mention about this, is again about average community members age, which is around 30yo, judging by what i was told by most ppl. I actually met someone 20yo or less maybe 10 times, most ppl were between 25-35. Sure, maybe im meeting just such dinosaurs , so maybe im wrong.
With this, im pointing at possible time spent to play exp/farm, cos nowadays ppl that age dont have much time to play OR they dont have nerves to do it, as when they were younger. Were usually just want to play and chill.
So in a campaign like this, even such ppl could play, without need to spend a LOT of time exping/farming, except for getting gold builds, crafting/buying potions, or exping class spells to max. But all those mentioned are easy to achieve, you can get full gold build in a month or two, even if you play just for few hours/week, while also such ppl could easily craft PVE build and play PVP with it, thanks to BLOCK of set bonuses. Also exping spells is a matter of few hours, so easy enough.
Such move could lure many ppl into the game, especially cos ppl could have a chance to actually try pvp verry soon, or even during free trials. That could convince ppl to not only play for pvp, but many could stay for pve content as well which is closely connected to pvp, and would still be, so it could possibly make community to grow.
And party enjoyers could do some funny assembly directly in cyro, instead of Auridon .

PVP weve had till now, was 100% new player unfriendly, even in lvl 50- cyro or BGs, cos way too many veteran players just crafted 50- lvl builds, created a new character, and went killing newcommers, who in most cases probably just left the game, never to return.
PVP weve had till now, is just overally bad, its VERRY hard to play even for veteran players, while its not much fun also. Cyro is a ballgroups playground and BGs are either comically easy, or a total nightmare, teams are unbalanced as hell there.

EDIT: Doing this could actually make those two low lvl campaigns completely dead and useless, so yes i agree, that this one could replace them.

Wallar333

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The test campaign has been fun for me when my particular faction has enough of a coordinated population to successfully attack and defend, but the restriction on skills has severely curtailed my ability to contribute in any meaningful way when I'm not being backed up by other players of my faction. For instance, I can't solo-capture a resource most of the time, especially on one of my two mains. And whenever my faction has the smallest population of the three-- which seems to be during the hours that I normally play-- soloing resources is about the only thing I've got left to do in Cyrodiil (aside from town dailies and Fighters Guild bounty missions, which are disabled in the test campaign).

If this test campaign were to become a regular campaign as-is, I would either continue to choose my existing home campaign (Grey Host) if it were still available, or would be forced to give up PvP on my two mains and try to PvP on alts using different Classes, because the Class skills which Vengeance limits me to are just not cutting it for me on my two mains-- except when I'm able to zerg with a crowd, which hasn't been the case this weekend. And if I can't PvP on Friday and Saturday nights due to huge and unstoppable zergs of enemy players and too few players of my own faction being logged in, then I'm out.

Even when we do have players on, they seem to be spread out all over the map pursuing pointless goals. Case in point, the other night I was trying to help too few players defend our home tri-keeps, but judging from chat there were a lot of players focused on trying to recapture one of our scrolls from the far side of Cyrodiil, which made absolutely no sense to me because even if they'd managed to grab the scroll they would have had to run it across the entire breadth of Cyrodiil with the dominant enemy alliance controlling every single keep they they'd need to run past, and with the gate protecting that particular scroll being wide open. Sheer madness! But what do I know, I'm only a casual player and an occasional PvPer. /shrug

Surely i agree that it needs to be changed to be actually playable and fun, thats why i made suggestions how it could be possible, and i hope someone joins me in this, adding something constructive what to add/change to make it perfect.

As for what youre describing, i can feel your pain bro but its every MMORPG problem, ppl are usually dumb, you give them a nuke, they blow it at their own *****, you need them to go west, theyll go east, youre fighting a heroic fight 1v10 still standing a feeling good seeing 100 of your faction members running to aid you, nope theyll turn to kill some mob on the other side of the map, well what to say, **** happens . But we wont change this, no matter what we do, or what devs try to do, its simply how it is

reazea

Vengeance mode is mindless and different enough from the original PvP mode that vengeance mode in no way prepares a player for the Cyrodiil we've been playing for 11 years now.

Wallar333

reazea wrote: »

Vengeance mode is mindless and different enough from the original PvP mode that vengeance mode in no way prepares a player for the Cyrodiil we've been playing for 11 years now.

Its not about preparing someone, i would play such a server as a veteran player still, as i expect MANY others to do so as well, cos this old cyro is just MINDLESS unfun nonsense, which is much worse than this dumbly simple cyro test campaign we have now.
In current state its not that good thats for sure, but it definitely has a potential, and if it would be changed into something similar as im suggesting, it would lure many ppl to like pvp, cos this old cyro we have, is just bad, ruined by ballgroups, while it looks impossible to balance it through years, causing ppl to run away from this games pvp content.

But sure, if someone takes it as a training for normal cyro, and switch campaigns after some time, it would be his/hers decision. But honestly, i dont expect new ppl to actually go for this old cyro we have, cos its just bad overally, from bigger part cos of dumbly unbalanced sets and crazy crosshealing/shielding.
Old cyro could be healed from this just partly if even, by reducing this crazy healing/shielding and balancing sorc class. Dumb builds would always be present tho, making a hole to be always used to ruin pvp by some noobs. While also way too many such ppl would cry about it, asking to get back their old cyro version we have now.
So it would be much easier to leave them in their cyro, where they can do whatever, using unbalanced builds, classes, ruining each others gameplay etc. who cares, im not gonna take it from them. But i want the rest of us to actually have some fun from PVP, and easiest way is to BLOCK all set bonuses, taking some skill lines etc. While also sorc and necro classes should be balanced, but thats for another topic.

I would also change pvp to force roles, but i dont expect ZOS to do that, thats why im suggesting vengeance future as im suggesting. Otherwise it would be much esier and way much better.
For example forcing ppl to pick their role BEFORE they go to cyro, which would result by only certain skills to be unlocked in there, while also every role would have different buffs/debuffs for cyro. Lets say like healing taken 60% for tanks,50% for healers and just 35% for DDs etc. But as i said, i dont expect ZOS to ever do that, so pvp would always be just unbalanced as we know it, so not worth thinking about that.

SeaGtGruff

@Wallar333, I don’t know how it is in other MMOs with PvP, because ESO is my only MMO.

But I realize that what I described is normal for Cyrodiil in ESO.

In the normal campaigns, there is a lot of fun to be had as long as ones side has decent population numbers and players stay fairly organized.

On the other hand, when the populations are too imbalanced or the enemy factions are far more organized and cohesive than one’s own faction, it can become pretty unbearable.

This test campaign has been great fun when all sides had more or less equal numbers and everyone was more or less equally organized or disorganized, and it’s been very successful in demonstrating that performance can be improved and population caps can be raised by reducing the amount of computations that the server must perform.

Part of my problem is that I’ve always relied more on Weapon skills than Class skills, and have never really learned how to play well on a purely Class-oriented build, so it’s been difficult to adjust my playstyle for this test.

I’m definitely keen to see what comes next.

Yasha

As someone who only plays this game for pvp and has been playing since beta, I am truely blown away by how amazing Vengeance has been. ZOS has managed to fix every problem with pvp with this "experiment." There is basically no lag, I can mount!!, keeps fights are fun and epic again, there seem to be hundreds of people on all the time, the combat is more engaging and skill based, and all the frustrating/offputting things about the game have been absent.

In short, Vengeance even in its current form is already miles better than the current implementation of Cyrodiil, so yes I would love to see it continue on after the test. Imo, the best idea is just to completely dump the old version. However, there do seem to be a few people who are really attached to crutching on gear and are less interested in a highly skill-based pvp system like Vengeance, so perhaps just leaving Grey Host for the ball groups and bombers and consolidating all the other campaigns (including under 50 and no-cp) into a Vengeance campaign would be the way to go.

TyrantNikolai

No this was a test for server instability culprits. The game long term would quickly get boring without customized building of a character. Overall great improvement for lag but boring since only nb or arc or sorc had any chance of out running a dk with chains in a zerg. Its a start and nowhere near a finished product.

Pepegrillos

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

It's Sunday and last when I checked the population, then I saw 2 bars AD, 3 bars EP and 2 bars DC. That's the current population of the usually 3 campaigns.
That should be feedback enough, that players are not really interested in this campaign, else everything would be poplocked on a Sunday.

The campaign that launched was three times bigger pop wise than regular Cyrodiil, and that cap has been raised over the week even further, at least one time (confirmed), maybe more.

sleepy_worm

It's the Ravenwatch I always wanted.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

Because there is a thread already open on this topic, we're going to close this one down so that all feedback can be consolidated in one place.

You may continue the discussion here.