RECOVERY GLYPHS VS COST REDUCTION GLYPHS

Kahnak

At the expense of dating myself a little bit here, it was determined a few years ago through a fair bit of theorycrafting that enchantments that provide Recovery are more optimal for sustain than Cost Reduction enchantments due to factors such as CP, Class/Racial/Skill Passives, Major/Minor Buffs (and other factors I'm probably forgetting) interacting in such a way with Recovery that they do not for Cost Reduction. This was amplified by the addition of the 'Infused' trait for jewelry when jewelry crafting was added in Summerset. I know the game has shifted quite a bit since then, but it is still not obvious to me that this has been reversed. However, I do see some content creators now recommending Cost Reduction over Recovery and I'm hoping that there is someone that can settle this for me. I do seem to remember the value for cost reduction being increased marginally, but if you asked me what patch or by how much, I have no idea. All of the updates seem to blur together at this point.

Evil_Rurouni

No idea about the maths, but theres one key fact that isn't included in any equasion:

You don't regen any mag while blocking using an ice staff with the destro passives that switch it to blocking with mag, nor do you regen stam if blocking with any other setup.

If the build is PvP oriented, or a PvE tank, it'll likely prefer a cost reduction glyph that always works to a regen one that only works when not blocking.

Kahnak

Evil_Rurouni wrote: »

No idea about the maths, but theres one key fact that isn't included in any equasion:

You don't regen any mag while blocking using an ice staff with the destro passives that switch it to blocking with mag, nor do you regen stam if blocking with any other setup.

If the build is PvP oriented, or a PvE tank, it'll likely prefer a cost reduction glyph that always works to a regen one that only works when not blocking.

"If the build is PvP oriented, or a PvE tank, it'll likely prefer a cost reduction glyph that always works to a regen one that only works when not blocking."

You know, I probably should have been more specific, but yes, I've heard this, as well.

I was thinking more along the lines of a healer, actually.

Most of the sources I can find, even now, seem to suggest wearing Magicka Recovery or Spell Damage, which has been the case for as long as I can remember. I've just noticed recently that Cost Reduction has been recommended by some content creators and I'm curious as to what has changed to make that the optimal choice, if it even is. I've been playing this game for years, and things like that don't generally change all that much unless the game is altered drastically. It would be like saying all of a sudden that Infused is the new best trait for DPS, when Divines has been the best for years and there is nothing to suggest that it should have changed.

Sluggy

It depends on a lot of factors including class passives, gear, stats, skill choices AND playstyle. There really is no one-size fits all answer for this. You're likely going to have to plan accordingly and test each out for a few nights to see which feels better for you.

For a lot of my builds lately I'm just leaning on sustain sets again so I don't actually run recovery or cost reduction glyphs anymore - with the exception of block cost reduction. Those are insanely powerful for any build where you expect to be blocking a lot.

ceruulean

It depends on your race and how sweaty you are. If you have high CPM, then cost reduction is better. If you play a race with cost reduction (breton, imperial, redguard), then cost reduction still wins but only by a little bit, so recovery glyph is essentially equal or better in trial conditions when you might not be casting skills every second, and you have recovery buffs from potion/skills.

If you are using Roaring Opportunist set, you want some spell damage glyphs because the set scales off it, and you are heavy attacking and getting mag back anyway.

Yudo

You have to find the breakpoint for your own build and playstyle really.

If you play high APM, block or sprint a lot, reduction would be interesting depending on stam/magicka. Your active participation in combat will determine the efficiency of this glyph.
If your playstyle does not require high APM, have frequent gaps in combat, then recovery would be interesting. The amount of blocking and sprinting will determine the efficiency of this glyph.

On my PvE healer I cast some HOT, use buffs and heavy attack in between rotation. I find recovery to be very good.
On my PvP healer I am casting non-stop. In combat or out of combat, I am spamming that Radiating regen like no tomorrow. While I have not tried it I can imagine cost reduction working like a charm.

But always check build because there are extremes. For example:
Magicka build on sorc with both major and minor intellect and 7x light already gives me a +83% modifier on recovery and 14% cost reduction, which makes recovery very competitive for high APM with the benefit of also working during low APM. No compromise.

YandereGirlfriend

The fact that additional sources of Cost Reduction (such as Armor passives) also reduce the efficacy of Cost Reduction Glyphs is beyond foolish and an unnecessary hamper to their performance.

CameraBeardThePirate

It kinda depends on the build.

% cost reduction makes cost reduction glyphs slightly less effective. I have a build that uses Telvanni Efficiency (without a companion) and Imperial. Spell cost reduction glyphs on this build are about 20% less effective than they are on a Dark Elf without Telvanni Efficiency (only reducing my spell costs by about 150 instead of the usual 203 for non-infused spell cost).

Outside of that interaction - is your build entirely mag skills? Are you something like a PvP healer, where you're spamming abilities every GCD even during lulls in combat to stay buffed? If so, mag cost reduction can be more effective than recovery. If you are truly spamming a mag ability every second, then it's an easy comparison - mag recovery gives you 169 magicka every two seconds. Spell cost reduction gives you 406 every two seconds provided you are casting a magicka ability every GCD.

Kahnak

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It kinda depends on the build.

% cost reduction makes cost reduction glyphs slightly less effective. I have a build that uses Telvanni Efficiency (without a companion) and Imperial. Spell cost reduction glyphs on this build are about 20% less effective than they are on a Dark Elf without Telvanni Efficiency (only reducing my spell costs by about 150 instead of the usual 203 for non-infused spell cost).

Outside of that interaction - is your build entirely mag skills? Are you something like a PvP healer, where you're spamming abilities every GCD even during lulls in combat to stay buffed? If so, mag cost reduction can be more effective than recovery. If you are truly spamming a mag ability every second, then it's an easy comparison - mag recovery gives you 169 magicka every two seconds. Spell cost reduction gives you 406 every two seconds provided you are casting a magicka ability every GCD.

For clarification, I'm talking about PvE Healing, primarily at endgame.

"If you are truly spamming a mag ability every second, then it's an easy comparison - mag recovery gives you 169 magicka every two seconds. Spell cost reduction gives you 406 every two seconds"

This is what I keep seeing, and like I said, it's not as simple as the bigger number wins in this situation. The 169 is added to your base Magicka Recovery of 514 and then increased multiplicatively by a number of factors. Even with just Minor and Major Intellect, 169 is actually something like 245. That's without CP or Class/Racial/Skill Passives. That's the inverse of cost reduction, which is as you said diminished by % cost reduction passives.

"provided you are casting a magicka ability every GCD"

And this here is the real kicker, because I hear this everywhere, too. Who is actually casting a Magicka ability every second of a fight? Most of the people I've seen claiming to do this have some kind of stream or footage of them in-game and I'm sure as heck not seeing a Magicka cast every second. I'm seeing healers do the tombs mechanic in Sunspire which lasts like 5 or 6 seconds every time, kite mini bosses, perform heavy attacks to proc Roaring Opportunist, cast Stamina abilities like Vigor to keep Powerful Assault rolling, perform dodge rolls + LA to proc Martial Knowledge (those who still use it), Cast Overflowing Altar, etc. Heck, casting War Horn is a GCD that doesn't cost Magicka. And don't get me wrong, this is what they should be doing. I'm just left wondering, with all of those seconds/GCD's that are not Magicka casts, at what point does cost reduction lose it's value? It's not like they don't add up and/or are not happening multiple times an encounter. So, when I hear "provided you are casting a magicka ability every GCD", it doesn't seem to me that ANYONE is doing that. Then, if no one is doing that, why would Magicka Cost Reduction even be a consideration?

Sluggy

Kahnak wrote: »

And this here is the real kicker, because I hear this everywhere, too. Who is actually casting a Magicka ability every second of a fight?

This probably more pertains to PvP where in tight situations you really can be mashing down some of those skills literally on cooldown for minutes at a time.

Kahnak

Sluggy wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

And this here is the real kicker, because I hear this everywhere, too. Who is actually casting a Magicka ability every second of a fight?

This probably more pertains to PvP where in tight situations you really can be mashing down some of those skills literally on cooldown for minutes at a time.

Sure, I agree. I'm definitely not a PvP expert, and that is what I hear from PvPers - cost reduction is more valuable. When it comes to PvP, I generally trust the consensus.

However, I do hear this coming from the other camp, as well, and as someone who has been in the support role at endgame PvE, it's not clear to me why.

Sluggy

Kahnak wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

And this here is the real kicker, because I hear this everywhere, too. Who is actually casting a Magicka ability every second of a fight?

This probably more pertains to PvP where in tight situations you really can be mashing down some of those skills literally on cooldown for minutes at a time.

Sure, I agree. I'm definitely not a PvP expert, and that is what I hear from PvPers - cost reduction is more valuable. When it comes to PvP, I generally trust the consensus.

However, I do this coming from the other camp, as well, and as someone who has been in the support role at endgame PvE, it's not clear to me why.

Do they run sustain? I haven't done serious organized PvE in years so I actually don't know anymore. Perhaps it's just parroting? That seems to be a common trait among progression groups in particular.

They tend to hear a factoid and stick to it like it was gospel and the only possible way. It's why so many struggle to clear content that they could have otherwise already mastered, because right out of the gate they want to use the same setup and techniques that the record breakers use to make their top runs. All the while not realizing that the very best groups didn't start that way - They used 'learner' setups that allowed for mistakes and left plenty of optimization on the floor because they wanted the opportunity to learn the fight and practice different techniques. It also helps that they tend to be a group of regulars that have played together for a long time and know how to play well together.

Anyway I digress. I think the best option is really just to try them both and see which feels better for you. It's not prohibitively expensive like before so why not have both options available anyway? You probably will find it even just depends on the fight and the group as to which is really better.

Kahnak

Sluggy wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

And this here is the real kicker, because I hear this everywhere, too. Who is actually casting a Magicka ability every second of a fight?

This probably more pertains to PvP where in tight situations you really can be mashing down some of those skills literally on cooldown for minutes at a time.

Sure, I agree. I'm definitely not a PvP expert, and that is what I hear from PvPers - cost reduction is more valuable. When it comes to PvP, I generally trust the consensus.

However, I do this coming from the other camp, as well, and as someone who has been in the support role at endgame PvE, it's not clear to me why.

Do they run sustain? I haven't done serious organized PvE in years so I actually don't know anymore. Perhaps it's just parroting? That seems to be a common trait among progression groups in particular.

They tend to hear a factoid and stick to it like it was gospel and the only possible way. It's why so many struggle to clear content that they could have otherwise already mastered, because right out of the gate they want to use the same setup and techniques that the record breakers use to make their top runs. All the while not realizing that the very best groups didn't start that way - They used 'learner' setups that allowed for mistakes and left plenty of optimization on the floor because they wanted the opportunity to learn the fight and practice different techniques. It also helps that they tend to be a group of regulars that have played together for a long time and know how to play well together.

Anyway I digress. I think the best option is really just to try them both and see which feels better for you. It's not prohibitively expensive like before so why not have both options available anyway? You probably will find it even just depends on the fight and the group as to which is really better.

"Do they run sustain? "

Generally, yes. Even now, most of the sources I can find seem to either be using Magicka Recovery or Spell/Weapon Damage. I've just noticed the emergence of the Cost Reduction crowd to be a recent thing for PvE.

"They tend to hear a factoid and stick to it like it was gospel and the only possible way."

Agreed, I've been playing this game too long to know that is not the case. That's why you still see Nightblades at the bleeding edge doing top damage on trifecta runs. You may have to look a little harder these days, but they are there.

"It's why so many struggle to clear content that they could have otherwise already mastered, because right out of the gate they want to use the same setup and techniques that the record breakers use to make their top runs."

Yep, I've seen this happen. There is too much nuance in this game for one strategy to be the definitive answer for every case scenario.