Stam versions of classes are inferior

malistorr

So I went from playing a magic version of Sorcerer to stam and even paid a good amount of money to change my race. I reset the morphs of all my class skills and noticed that there really aren't stam versions of most of the skills. So not only do I lose the ability to range attack (unless I use a bow which hasn't been strong in years since most of the related proc sets were nerfed) but I can barely find any effective offensive skills to use either. Sure I can use spin to win in dual wield but the rest of the dual wield skills are awful. They require you to get up-close to the enemy and put yourself in harms way and don't do much damage either. And 2H skills are OK but the same thing goes here too. You have to be right in the midst of the enemy and the skills are slow and don't do much damage. I noticed also on Nightblade and DragonKnight that most of the skills, or at least good ones, are magic based. You must have a character that has plenty of magic to cast a lot of the class skills. So stam toons aren't viable. If you want to play a stam version of the 3-classes mentioned above good luck. There is a lack of skills using stam that are effective. Nevermind that you have to share a resource pool with dodge rolling and running. Sure you may get slightly better defense with medium armor instead of light and a little bit more speed. But it doesn't account for having to always be in danger, the lack of skills you can use, and the fact that you're sharing resources. I really don't know why anyone would want to play a stam toon now with so many disadvantages. Even if you made a viable morph or all mag sorc skills that cost stam you're still sharing the resource pool and still have to be in melee range vs. ranged and you'll die more. The considerations above I'm sure are why it's really only viable to be a mag version of at least Nightblade, Sorcerer, and Dragonknight. I haven't played my Templar in a while but I think it was the same thing there. Why would anyone want to play a stam toon these days? These imbalances need to be fixed. At the very least make good viable alternatives to mag class skills that cost stam and add some ranged stam skills (besides bow) as well. And no, hybridization doesn't help here because you need the large stam resource pool to cast stam skills. And you'll still be sharing that with running and dodge rolling.

An example skill is Crystal Shard for the Sorcerer. Why not make a morph for stamsorcs that costs stam and still allows the skill to be ranged? For example it could say that the Sorcerer picks up a boulder and throws it at the enemy. It would still do comparable damage and still allow the characters to stay ranged. Crystal Weapon is a really bad skill that I don't even want to use. It doesn't even do any damage itself but just buffs melee light and heavy attacks which are really difficult to use in the first place. Gone is a skill that itself actually does damage (a lot) and from far away no less. I could go on and on comparing how few stam skills there are and how just about all of them are inferior.

BananaBender

In PvE generally stamina builds are stronger than magicka ones. Some classes have more magicka skills that you really want to have, like Daedric Prey and Chrystal Fragments on Sorc, but you can sustain using those pretty well on stamina sorcerer as well. The problem right now is that being magicka doesn't really offer you anything useful. You still want to use DW on the front bar on most builds, since it offers great stats and access to Blade Cloak, and if you don't want to use a stamina based weapon, you are forced to use Destruction staff, which has poor passives and only two good skills for damage dealers. (Elemental Blockade and the ultimate).

If you are doing group content or anything other than solo stuff, you are better off being close to the enemies anyway, since that's where all the heals and buffs are going to be. If you are doing solo stuff and you don't have to think about healers, tanks or external buffs, you are still better off being close to the enemy, because the enemy is going to move to you otherwise. This will lead to the enemy always running out of every single AoE you have placed on the ground, making the fight much more difficult, rather than easier. If you don't care about any of this and only care about the visual, story or roleplay aspect, then you probably aren't worried about the balance either.

Pros of being stamina: You have access to way more weapons. Dual wield being the main one, though it can be used on magicka characters almost equally well (except for spin to win). Bow is the best weapon by far if you want to use the same type of weapon on both bars. 2h is a great option and is by far the best for certain classes, like Sorcerer, NB and Necromancer because of the Maelstrom Greatsword. Medium armor provides some extra bonuses, but you shouldn't really pick your armor weight based on the resource anymore, since the other buffs from the armor are way more impactful (Penetration and crit chance from light and wpn/spell damage and crit damage from medium). You have more resources to dodge roll and sprint with.

Cons of being stamina: If you don't manage your resources well, you might not have enough to dodge roll when you need to (Expert evasion CP negates most of this downside). If you want range, you can use bow.

malistorr

So the Pros are more weapon choices and being able to use the Maelstrom sword. Got it. IMO those don't counteract all the cons I listed above which are:
1. Lack of class skills that use stam and are just as effective as the mag counterparts
2. The fact that you're sharing resources between skill usage and your mobility/defense and therefore will run out of stam much faster.
3. Can't go ranged much at all except with weak bow skills so you'll die more because you're always closer to the enemy.

Sorry I've tried stam toons for years and have never been able to make any of them work. I guess if you're zerging down the enemy and outnumber them by a lot it would be fun to execute them with the 2H Executioner ability. But if it's an even or outnumbered fight I think you'll just get run over like I do every time I try a stam toon. Mag sorc can stack 57K or more mag, have the crazy high shield with heal, have streak, and have skills like Crystal Frag and haunting curse that do more damage than any stam skill and from far away. There's no comparison. Not even with a shiny Maelstrom sword. Oh and you have all your stam to roll dodge and run while having the close to 60k resources to cast skills. It's not even a little bit close. Nevermind that good versions of Nightblade and Dragonknight skills are mag too. I know that most of the PVP population agree with me. I barely see any 2H players at all in Cyrodiil these days. And they're killed before they even get close to another player to use a Wrecking Blow.

Sluggy

What's a stam toon?

EDIT: Okay, so setting my flippant remark aside: Hybrid is how it all works now. I'm assuming based on the context that you are focusing more on PvP here? If that's the case then there is even less to worry about when it comes to stam versus mag. No one stacks into either anymore except in a few specific builds such as 'Max Mag Nightblade', 'Max Mag Sorc', 'Or Max Stam Sorc' but in all of those cases it has more to do with a specific build strategy than being a general spec like it used to be. Dual wield on a sorc with 45k mag if you want. Or swing a two-handed maul on a DK that uses Molten Whip. Or Wrecking Blow on a Warden that uses 15k max stam. It'll all work if you build for it and play it well. Honestly, it'll work a little too well.

BananaBender

malistorr wrote: »

Sorry I've tried stam toons for years and have never been able to make any of them work. I guess if you're zerging down the enemy and outnumber them by a lot it would be fun to execute them with the 2H Executioner ability. But if it's an even or outnumbered fight I think you'll just get run over like I do every time I try a stam toon. Mag sorc can stack 57K or more mag, have the crazy high shield with heal, have streak, and have skills like Crystal Frag and haunting curse that do more damage than any stam skill and from far away. There's no comparison. Not even with a shiny Maelstrom sword. Oh and you have all your stam to roll dodge and run while having the close to 60k resources to cast skills. It's not even a little bit close. Nevermind that good versions of Nightblade and Dragonknight skills are mag too. I know that most of the PVP population agree with me. I barely see any 2H players at all in Cyrodiil these days. And they're killed before they even get close to another player to use a Wrecking Blow.

This is exactly why I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm referring to PvE, since I couldn't care less about PvP.

Since you never disclosed that this topic is exclusively about PvP, here is the state of the skills on DK, NB and Sorc in PvE:
DK
Molten Whip (M&S) shares the cost, but is by far superior to Flame Lash that is only magicka.
Venomous Claw (S) is much better everywhere unless you are soloing stuff compared to Burning Embers (M).
Engulfing Flames (M) is better then Noxious Breath (S) because of the unique debuff.
Stone Giant (S) is one of the best support skills in the game, which makes it way better than Obsidian Shard (M)

NB
Surprise Attack (S) is slightly better than Concealed Weapon (M), since it applies Off Balance and Concealed doesn't really do anything you would want.
Killer's Blade (S) is so much better than Impale (M) it's not even close.
Merciless Resolve (M) is slightly better in most situations than Relentless Focus (S), but it's very close.
Power Extraction (S) is better than Sap Essence (M) since it applies Minor Courage to you and Minor Cowardice to the enemy.

Sorc
Bound Armaments (S) is better since it actually synergizes with the passive and does damage. Bound Aegis (M) gives you max magicka, so it's only useful as a passive for DDs and tanks would prefer having bonus stamina instead of magicka.
Crystal Fragments (M) is by far better than Crystal Weapon (S) and it's not even close.
Dark Deal (M) is better than Dark Conversion (S), since it gives Minor Berserk and Minor Force (though you would never want this to be your only source of Minor Force).
Hurricane (S) is better than Boundless Storm (M) in pretty much every regard.

I wouldn't say that magicka skill are better overall, I would almost argue the opposite. It really also depends on which scenario you are using the skills, so to clarify I did the list in group PvE viewpoint. For soloing it's a bit different and I'm sure it's also different in PvP.
Anyway, I just disagree with the statement that Stamina skills/specs are weaker than magicka ones, since magicka specs on some classes are pretty much just direct downgrades from the stamina version in PvE (Arcanist, Necromancer, NB, Templar, Sorc). The only classes I would say where mag is even with stam is DK and Warden, but even in this case Magden has pretty much no flexibility, but is good in specific scenarios.

malistorr

My post is only about PVP as that's all I play. I only PVE to get something I need for PVP. I figured it would be obvious but sorry for not specifying.

For Sluggy: It does matter for 2-reasons even after hybridization:

If you want max damage you want your highest stat to be as high as possible (meaning max stam and weapon damage combined *OR* max mag and spell damage combined). Each 1,000 extra resource (mag for example) gives you the equivalent of an extra 95 spell damage. And your skill's damage is based off your highest stat (1 of the 2 combos above). So if your spell damage and max mag would give you more damage than your weapon damage and max stam then that is what's used for your damage calculations on all skills after hybridization. So if you have half your resources in max mag and half in max stam, your highest is lower than if you put most of your resources in 1 or the other and therefore your skills will have less damage.

So yes, with hybridization you could put most into spell damage and max mag and that would be used to calculate damage, even on dual-wield, bow, and 2H skills.

But if you don't have much max stam you're still not going to be able cast many weapon skills because your max stam is low and that is needed to cast those skills in the 1st place. For anyone using many stam skills, whether they are weapon skills or class skills that use stam, not slotting into max stam and weapon damage is a big mistake. How are you supposed to win PVP fights with 17K max stam? Between casting 3 or 4 skills and running and dodge-rolling you're out of stam and dead because you can't even break free, run, roll, or cast any stam skills.

So between having less damage splitting resources evenly into mag and stam and also having a smaller resource pool with which to cast your main skills, going with both is a big mistake.

IMO stam PVP toons (meaning those using stam to cast most skills) are at a huge disadvantage because you need stam for rolling, running, and breaking free and that takes from your available leftover for skills.

Lozeenge

both morphs of Veiled Weapon can do Off-Balance but Surprise Attack still inches out because of the guaranteed Sundered for the unique weapon/spell damage buff, which is otherwise an uncommon status effect proc or just not feasible if your build doesn't source any physical damage.

i do agree though that stamina management is a nightmare in PVP and i generally have an easier time playing on magicka builds as a result.

malistorr

The only real way to fix this is have running, rolling, break free etc. use something else besides stam which doesn't really make sense. But there is an imbalance to skills that use mag vs. stam. There are just way more of them (mag-using skills) and they are stronger and can be mostly used at range. And you have a larger pool of resources to cast them from since it's a SEPARATE pool of resources vs. what you use for mobility. Whether mag or stam focused the only way to make things even and fair is to have mobility activities use another pool altogether vs. the pool of resources used by primary offensive skills.

And every skill should have an equally powerful and versatile stam morph. If not, what is the point? You get this mess of a combat system that PVP is now. This makes me feel that the devs don't PVP. They don't know how unbalanced and bad this current setup is.

Sluggy

@malistorr
Many skills are just situationally more useful. Some have morphs where one performs better in a coordinated group setting whereas the other doesn't. Some have morphs where one is probably better suited to PvE whereas the other is PvP. Either way, I think they'd done a fairly decent job of providing different sources of tools for players to choose from. Frankly, I don't even look at resource cost anymore (unless it's health). It just doesn't matter what resource it pulls from or how much it takes. If I want the effect of a skills, I want the effect of the skill and that's the only thing I use to inform my decision anymore.

The reason you are gassing out with 17k stam is because your opponents aren't. You should investigate why that is. If you are struggling then it probably means you are engaging in fights with opponents that have strategies that are stronger than yours. You're picking the wrong fights at the wrong times. Or you simply aren't managing it very well. Every class now has exceptional sustain tools in their kit. Passives in heavy armor are very strong too. CP slottables provide some of the very best sources as well. And we have literally the two best sustain sets ever in the game now. Wretched Vitality is craftable and Roksa's in a two-piece.

Here's what my DK looks like on the front bar when completely unbuffed.



I play with a maul on the front bar and a sword and shield on the back. Four of my skills use stam (Vigor, Noxious Breath, Molten Whip, and Executioner). If I anticipate fighting out numbered I keep Wretched Vitality on. If I expect to be fighting with allies then I swap that out for Clever Alchemist. Rallying Cry, Bloodspawn, 1pc of Trainee and Wild Hunt make up the rest of my kit. Either way, running out of stam is just something than simply never happens to me. Pretty much all of my deaths involve overextending and getting focused, mismanaging my magicka and running dry, or lag spikes that leave me wondering what even is happening for a few seconds at a time. Occasionally I might just get totally blown out of the water by someone running absolutely max damage that catches me off guard but that's super rare. I'd rather be prepared for the 80% of the fights I'll see in Cyrodiil even if it means the other 20% are hard counter losses for me.

I like the big numbers too. Up until last summer I was running an absolutely ancient build. 100k pen (corrosive), 8k-10k weapon damage (depending on allies), and 32k stam. Eventually I realized it just didn't matter. Sure I might demolish a person here or there if they weren't ready for the burst I had but most of the time they just ended up turtling and waiting to hit back after I punched myself out. I've changed back to a much much older style of balance and patience similar to the heyday of stam DK's wearing Fury. And it's paying off. Despite my emphasis on defense and sustain I have no problem killing people that make mistakes. And if they are good players that don't make mistakes... well. It wouldn't have mattered anyway. They weren't going to die to anything I could have thrown at them.

At the end of the day the reason my setup works for me is because I don't run a stam Dk. Nor do I run a mag DK. I run just DK with a solid plan for sustaining and a toolkit that allows me to bite back when the opportunity strikes. I'm not even a particularly good player but I find I'm having plenty of fun and success playing exactly the same way I always have - as a front-line brawler pushing into enemies. My Wardens, Templar, Sorcerer, and Nightblades are no different in this regard.

sans-culottes

malistorr wrote: »

So I went from playing a magic version of Sorcerer to stam and even paid a good amount of money to change my race. I reset the morphs of all my class skills and noticed that there really aren't stam versions of most of the skills. So not only do I lose the ability to range attack (unless I use a bow which hasn't been strong in years since most of the related proc sets were nerfed) but I can barely find any effective offensive skills to use either. Sure I can use spin to win in dual wield but the rest of the dual wield skills are awful. They require you to get up-close to the enemy and put yourself in harms way and don't do much damage either. And 2H skills are OK but the same thing goes here too. You have to be right in the midst of the enemy and the skills are slow and don't do much damage. I noticed also on Nightblade and DragonKnight that most of the skills, or at least good ones, are magic based. You must have a character that has plenty of magic to cast a lot of the class skills. So stam toons aren't viable. If you want to play a stam version of the 3-classes mentioned above good luck. There is a lack of skills using stam that are effective. Nevermind that you have to share a resource pool with dodge rolling and running. Sure you may get slightly better defense with medium armor instead of light and a little bit more speed. But it doesn't account for having to always be in danger, the lack of skills you can use, and the fact that you're sharing resources. I really don't know why anyone would want to play a stam toon now with so many disadvantages. Even if you made a viable morph or all mag sorc skills that cost stam you're still sharing the resource pool and still have to be in melee range vs. ranged and you'll die more. The considerations above I'm sure are why it's really only viable to be a mag version of at least Nightblade, Sorcerer, and Dragonknight. I haven't played my Templar in a while but I think it was the same thing there. Why would anyone want to play a stam toon these days? These imbalances need to be fixed. At the very least make good viable alternatives to mag class skills that cost stam and add some ranged stam skills (besides bow) as well. And no, hybridization doesn't help here because you need the large stam resource pool to cast stam skills. And you'll still be sharing that with running and dodge rolling.

An example skill is Crystal Shard for the Sorcerer. Why not make a morph for stamsorcs that costs stam and still allows the skill to be ranged? For example it could say that the Sorcerer picks up a boulder and throws it at the enemy. It would still do comparable damage and still allow the characters to stay ranged. Crystal Weapon is a really bad skill that I don't even want to use. It doesn't even do any damage itself but just buffs melee light and heavy attacks which are really difficult to use in the first place. Gone is a skill that itself actually does damage (a lot) and from far away no less. I could go on and on comparing how few stam skills there are and how just about all of them are inferior.

Ironically, the better morph for Sacrificial Bones is its stamina morph, Blighted Blastbones. The new magicka morph, Grave Lord’s Sacrifice, was DoA when it was foisted on players. This was more than a year ago.

It’s also ironic, and a shame, that the magicka morph is objectively worse than the stamina morph in pretty much any instance I can think of. GLS was ostensibly introduced to decrease the number of actions per minute players were performing.

Unfortunately, it also made corpse generation difficult. This necessitated the bizarre addition of corpse generation to Skulls—but only when under the effects of GLS—to make up for it. The irony is that this made the rotation even more complicated while lowering DPS in most if not all situations.

malistorr

I didn't really get any of that since I've never had a necromancer but I believe you. Unfortunately for the 4-classes I have tried there are few stam versions of skills and the ones that do exist aren't nearly as good.

Xarc

ZOS's intention was to make hybrid builds possible, since damage is based on the most important resource.
From this principle, this topic is not one.

malistorr

Actually it is. For the reasons I've clearly explained above. And my post is not about hybrid builds. It's about why primarily stam versions of classes are inferior.

Sluggy

That's what we are trying to explain to you.

The Game. Is. Hybrid.

Stop looking at it in terms of stam vs mag. That isn't relevant anymore.

malistorr

Yes it is. If you're trying to use weapon abilities you need stam to cast them. So you have to build into that as your primary stat instead of magic. (Unless you're OK only being able to cast 3 or 4 skills before being out of resources) This is very simple so I'm not sure why some can't understand this. If you have to use a lot of stam to roll dodge, run, and break free, that leaves less resources to cast your weapon abilities with (or stam-using morphs of class skills). That is issue 1 that makes toons that want to build into stam instead of mag inferior.

The 2nd issue is that at least for the classes I'm talking about, there are very few morphs of class skills that use stam and they are not as good.

I'll give examples to make this crystal clear. If you want to be a stam sorc and use 2H or dual wield skills you need to have your max stam pool be large and your mag pool be small so you have enough resources to cast a lot of your damage skills.

So you're not going to be casting Crystal Fragments because your max mag pool will be small and you'll need to save what little you have for shield or heals. It hits from 28+ meters away and is one of the strongest damage abilities in the game. And that's without the proc that lets you cast 1 faster and for more damage. The other morph for stam characters is a completely different ability that does no damage by itself. it buffs your light attack or heavy attack. So you have to cast this, get within melee range, and then use la or ha. It will buff your la or ha by less than half the damage that Crystal Fragments hits for from range and you have to get really close to the enemy to even use it. So the "stam" morph of this skill is very inferior to the "mag" morph of this skill. The same applies down the line to pretty much all the damage sorc skills. There either isn't a "stam" version of sorc damage class skills or they aren't nearly as good. Same goes for DK and I think Templar and NB too and possibly others.

If you want to use weapons instead of staves you build into max stam instead of mag. We need viable stam morphs of all class skills that are equal to their mag counterparts. And stam toons also shouldn't be penalized by having mobility activities take away from their primary resource pool. This doesn't happen for mag toons.

Sluggy

Okay, so. Let's break down your example piece by piece.

malistorr wrote: »

If you want to be a stam sorc and use 2H or dual wield skills you need to have your max stam pool be large and your mag pool.

This assertion is not true. You don't need a large stam pool nor do you need a small mag pool. You need a strategy that allows you to perform what you want when you want it. The weapons you choose are also part of your strategy. I will conceded that the advantages of ranged weapons right now are pretty strong but most people that are focusing on maximum possible damage are still running dual wield regardless of their resource preferences.

malistorr wrote: »

So you're not going to be casting Crystal Fragments because your max mag pool will be small and you'll need to save what little you have for shield or heals.

Sure I would! I don't spam the ability non-stop. It's there for a killing blow so there's no worry of running out of mag because I'll only bother to cast it when its proc is up and I'm ready to try for a kill.

malistorr wrote: »

It hits from 28+ meters away and is one of the strongest damage abilities in the game.

The range is also nice to have even when playing melee because it means I have a tool to assault enemies that have tried to break away. Just because you are using melee weapons doesn't mean you can't use ranged skills.

malistorr wrote: »

And that's without the proc that lets you cast 1 faster and for more damage.

Why would I ever cast it raw? A hard-cast frag is easy to avoid or interrupt, does less damage, costs more, and has a cast time.

malistorr wrote: »

The other morph for stam characters is a completely different ability that does no damage by itself. It buffs your light attack or heavy attack. So you have to cast this, get within melee range, and then use la or ha.

You only have to get within melee range if you are melee only. There are plenty out there that prefer this morph when using staff and it works with bows too.

malistorr wrote: »

It will buff your la or ha by less than half the damage that Crystal Fragments hits for from range and you have to get really close to the enemy to even use it. So the "stam" morph of this skill is very inferior to the "mag" morph of this skill.

The stam version is still a very hard-hitting skill that has additional bonuses. What it lacks in damage compared to frags it makes up for in pressure and utility. The most common way to use it is as a layed burst component. You pre-cast just before an attack so that it stack with the other ability that is inevitably going to land at the same time. You can also use it rapid fire to really lay some pressure on. It's very cheap to do so. If you are gassing out of stam using this then that means you aren't gauging the fight well and managing your resources accordingly.

malistorr wrote: »

The same applies down the line to pretty much all the damage sorc skills. There either isn't a "stam" version of sorc damage class skills or they aren't nearly as good.

Many of your best skills cost mag but aren't cast non-stop so there's really no reason to worry about resources so much. As for the others, Dark Deal and Dark Conversion are designed to allow you to pick your desired sustain strategy based on preference. Both forms of Mage's Fury are so good that stam sorcs were using it long before hybridization. Streak is perfect for a stam sorc because you don't pressure that stamina that you are so worried about. Armaments and Aegis are both useful tools and it entirely depends on what you are going for as to which, if either, you choose. Who even uses lightening splash? Many of the rest of the skills aren't cast non-stop so their cost is even less relevant.

malistorr wrote: »

Same goes for DK

As a solo DK, Noxious breath is on every build I play. Period. I'll give you that Poop Rock is... poop. Honestly, I liked it better when it was a mag ranged stun and I used it regularly even though I was playing stam.

malistorr wrote: »

Templar

Their stam-based armor buff and jabs are objectively better than the mag ones.

malistorr wrote: »

NB

Nightblades literally cannot run dry of resources with the change to siphoning. They have the single strongest tool in the entire game to the point where they don't need anything else. My regen for both pools is like sub-900.

malistorr wrote: »

possibly others.

Warden's are fine. I run even less max stats an less regen on my warden than I do on my DK AND it's a stage 3 vampire. You just need to leverage in to their Animal Companion and Green Balance passives. I also run five pieces of heavy because it gives me extra defense and a ton of extra sustain tools via passives.

I can't speak for Arcs or Necros. I don't have access.

malistorr wrote: »

If you want to use weapons instead of staves you build into max stam instead of mag.

I don't. I've already showed you that I don't. And many people actually run both types of weapons to leverage heavy attacks for both pools.


I've laid out several strategies I and others use. There are many more I haven't even touched on and probably more beyond that I don't even know of. Instead of asking the devs to bulldoze the entire combat system again, I suggest that you look into some of these tools and see what you can do to make it work for you. I know for a fact there are strong melee sorcs out there. I've regularly run from one for years because he deletes me within four seconds of engagement every single time and it's not like I'm a pushover with zero defense.

The biggest concern for me right now isn't so much mag vs stam as it is melee vs ranged. Melee does tend to hit harder but often has much stricter requirements and demands that I expose myself much more greatly to danger.

Stx

It depends on class. For Templar stamina builds basically don’t exist because the magicka jabs heals you and the stamina jabs does basically nothing. There is zero benefit to running stamina builds on a Templar which is insane. Nightblade has both strong stamina and magicka skills. I believe some classes have stronger stamina skills but I’m not 100% sure.

malistorr

I stand by everything I said and disagree with sluggy. Sure if you want to cast an ability or 2 you can use a stam pool of 16k and if you're lucky you might be able to run for 10-seconds or even break free once. If the fight lasts for more than 5-10 seconds you're dead. My mag sorc has into the high 40s for max mag and over 36k health. And my resists are around 30k with Boundless Storm on which I use constantly. I have recovery 1500+ for mag and my health recover is even higher. If you build the other way you may get some good burst for up to a few seconds but good luck killing anyone in this 40k health tanky meta. Builds with low max resources are awful. If you have low max resources and low recovery most people can't stay alive long at all. But the points I made above are all valid. I've been PVPing in this game on PC and Xbox for many years and have probably about 10 5-stars combined. I'm not the best player ever but I know the game because I PVP daily for hours and have played through all the changes. The points I made about melee/stam versions of toons being inferior are correct/valid. Even if you just look at a single point, that the stam pool is shared between abilities and breaking free/running/blocking/rolling it's case closed. Unless you come tell me that you have to share your mag pool with 4 other abilities that are vital to playing the game this isn't even a discussion.

Turtle_Bot

It would help us if you could post your build here. That would allow us to help pinpoint area's that could help fix the problems you are encountering.

Based on what has already been said though, it sounds like you have a very resource intensive playstyle (something I am very familiar with since I do too) or perhaps you are trying to perform PvE rotations for maximum sustained damage instead of PvP rotations that are short bursts (the rotations are so different they are basically night and day).

A few things to note, It might be worth:
1. Switching to wretched vitality (crafted set that is the best sustain set in the game) for the back bar
2. Looking into a recovery mundus blessing over a damage one
3. Switching 1 (or more) jewelry enchants to recovery or cost reduction instead of damage
4. Using Energy Overload morph instead of Power Overload (if playing sorcerer)

You also mentioned that you changed race, if you switched to Dark Elf (Dunmer), that would explain some of the issues, since while Dark Elf has the highest (non-crit) DPS, it also comes with the worst sustain, so it is very unforgiving for players that have very resource intensive playstyles.

PvP is not about trying to maintain 100k DPS on the target (a common mistake players make in PvP), it's about applying as much passive pressure as possible (via proc sets, specific DoTs such as ele sus, status effects, debuffs and CC to stam check) then timing your burst to get the kill when your target is low on stamina.

There's no point in having 100k DPS if you run out of resources after a single rotation and have to wait a minute or longer to let your recoveries catch up due to only having 500 recoveries. It's better to have passive pressure outlined above and an ~25k tooltip burst combo that can be cast with minimal casts and invest those extra stats into sustain and health to allow you to live long enough and maintain enough resources to attempt the burst.

As others have noted though, the game has become very hybrid focused (especially for PvP), where you want to slot skills for their effects, not what resource they require to be cast. For example, Elemental Susceptibility is one of the strongest pressure tools in the game right now due to being a 60 second DoT, that also procs 3 different status effects every 7 seconds, and inflicts Major Breach, that also costs nothing to cast. That's why almost every meta build runs a frost staff back bar, to take advantage of this super strong (and free) pressure tool, but to also have the added bonus of frost staff being a tank weapon with defensive passives on par with 1 hand + shield, which allows frost staff to double up as both a way to deal passive pressure while also providing defenses on the back bar.

I've found it very common to see dual wield front bar (even on mag builds) since dual wield provides the best damage passives and with skills like wield soul, that still allows dual wield weapons to fight at range, especially on sorcerer where overload allows light attacks to be ranged regardless of which weapon is equipped. Bow is another very common front bar weapon currently too with great DPS passives and range.

malistorr

I will stick with my Breton mag sorc for now for the reasons stated above. I live a lot longer not having to be in melee range and having ranged skills. My resource pool is super-high and with food that offers max mag, health, and mag recovery, my recovery is pretty good. Hopefully ZOS fixes the balance so people have a viable way to go max stam like they do with max mag.

BXR_Lonestar

Honestly, it doesn't seem like there is any such thing as a pure Stam or pure Mag build anymore, and I think the game is lesser for it IMO. For DPS in PVE, there are maybe 5-6 sets that you will use that are META for most/all situations, and you would not vary from that unless you have a specialized build (like a 1 bar). The DPS skills and sets will be a mix of mag/stam sets, and often times, your DPS bars end up looking very similar, with 1-2 class skills mixed in to fill out your bar.

Overall, I think hybridization killed variety in the game, and IMO we should go back to Mag and Stam being totally separate.

Stx

I was against hybridization at the time and I still am. Basically the only thing that separates a magicka build from a stamina build now is your maximum resource and usually your spammable.

Its not all bad. Hybridization did open up skills to be able to be used in more variety of builds. But it also homogenized all builds.