Thoughts on Capture the Relic

valenwood_vegan · February 28

Lol I mean what even is this. Not an uncommon result either. Fun fun thrilling game mode. Please let us choose the bg mode(s) we want to play, and if one isn't popular... consider why rather than force feeding it.

<edited title as the previous title was Bashing/Slanderous>

the1andonlyskwex · February 28

It truly is the worst BG mode. It was bad in 4v4v4 too.

Auberon1983 · February 28

On PS/NA (probably EU too) the 4v4v4 Relic used to glitch out all the time. You'd still have your own relic, but couldn't turn in the enemy relic. The "workaround" was to actually run the enemy relic all the way back to their base, then run back to your own, hoping in the meantime no one got yours.

So long story short, I hate Relic with a purple passion

Desiato · February 28

I would like to see team fortress style ctf with bases. The current Battlegrounds maps are too basic for ctf.

And at least on one map, the relic can be easily defended from the respawn area which is pretty ridiculous.

EvilGoatKing · February 28

Yea, last november the lead pvp dev streamed it. ZOS took down the vid.

Sarannah · February 28

Used to love capture the relic in 4x4x4 as it was about tactics, which should be a huge part of PvP. In 8x8 capture the relic doesn't work.

Another issue in 8x8 is the chaosball transformations, you are just waiting to die. Remove those transformations when taking the ball! This mode was also more fun and chaotic in 4x4x4 as it made the ballbearer a target for everyone.

8x8 is just groups turtling at their base in every mode. Which is why two-sided BG's are and will always be bad!

PS: In two-sided BG's even if you are losing the only option is to keep fighting or leave, many players leave! Keep fighting is like bashing your head against the wall repeatedly. I seriously can't see why anyone would like the new two-sided BG's, or why ZOS thought these were a good idea.

Ishtarknows · February 28

[quote="Sarannah;c-8273943"
Another issue in 8x8 is the chaosball transformations, you are just waiting to die. Remove those transformations when taking the ball!
[/quote]

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation? I usually run BGs as a healer and can keep team mates alive when morphed, but when I'm vampire myself? I just watch my health steadily drop. None of the skills seem to do anything to help!

WaywardArgonian · February 28

Capture the Relic has always been my least favorite mode, whether in the old or the new form. I just don't think the format where each faction has its own relic works. Initially I reckoned it would be better if it was like a 1CTF mode where there is a central Relic that both teams have to fight over, but that would probably incentivize people to take the relic and farm the enemy team at their spawn (something which already kinda happens now anyway). I wouldn't mind seeing the mode going altogether at this point.

xylena_lazarow · February 28

If your team scores first, the optimal strat becomes for your whole team to turtle on your own relic doing basically nothing for the next 14 minutes. Going for another grab when you're up 100-0 amounts to all risk, no reward. It's also obnoxious how you can grab the relic through solid geometry on some of the maps. This mode needs help.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 28

Capture the relic has always been my least liked mode, but the removal of the third team has made it so much worse. It often comes to a stand still with no relics being captured at all.

I didn't complete my Relic Hunter achievments before the change and I don't think I will ever be able to complete it now. Especially not since you personally need to capture the relics. Meaning I will never get Pit Daemon's Poison dye, which is one of the few good matte dyes.

Pixiepumpkin · February 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If your team scores first, the optimal strat becomes for your whole team to turtle on your own relic doing basically nothing for the next 14 minutes. Going for another grab when you're up 100-0 amounts to all risk, no reward. It's also obnoxious how you can grab the relic through solid geometry on some of the maps. This mode needs help.

^ This.

It's also frustrating when the team is going for the relic while some of us who understand stratgy stay behind to defend, meanwhile getting nothing for score for doing the team a major service by defending.

I'll never understand why games do not give rewards for node defenders.

Juomuuri · February 28

It's always a steamroll, guaranteed. If the other team has tanks and healers, you cannot win. I wish they'd just remove this mode entirely since it does not work in any way with two teams. It didn't work well with three teams either!!

Chrisilis · February 28

Three team relic was kinda meh but playable, two team is a boring stalemated nightmare. I'd rather do laundry than play two team relic. Imo, the only games that adapted well to the two team format are DM and Chaosball. Chaosball especially is well suited to two team, I like having three chaos balls but could do without the transformations. You get some good DM's here and there, bout 50/50 good matches/steamrolls. Imo, Bg's were more fun with three teams.

Veinblood1965 · February 28

Ishtarknows wrote: »

[quote="Sarannah;c-8273943"
Another issue in 8x8 is the chaosball transformations, you are just waiting to die. Remove those transformations when taking the ball!

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation? I usually run BGs as a healer and can keep team mates alive when morphed, but when I'm vampire myself? I just watch my health steadily drop. None of the skills seem to do anything to help! [/quote]

I'd like to know this also. Unless I'm attacked attack back just standing there i just watch my health drop.

Veinblood1965 · February 28

There are tactics my team usually wins on capture the relic and I'm usually the one capturing most of them.

Carry alternate sets of jewellery with swift traits. Carry the ring of the wild hunt with swift trait. I've considered making a set of cowards gear also which would max out my speed.

Slot a quick heal skill and the Ultimate Barrier from the assault skill line or some ultimate shield of some sort.

Before the match put the jewellery and slot the skills.

Slot an invisibly potion that heals you.

As soon as the match begins get to the other teams relic and grab it. A LOT of times since you are so fast they are still in disarray. GRAB IT, hit your shield and run!

After that get back to their relic. WAIT in stealth a little bit away as they will be guarding it, if you are not a NB you may have to use the invis potion once in a while. WAIT for one of your team mates to show up which distracts the guarder. OR if it looks like they might get it help them by attacking the other team so he or she can get it AND escort them back running between them and the people chasing them so they hit you and not the carrier.

You CAN grab the relic from BEHIND the podium on some maps, like the one where it is in the open but behind a wall. Run over and grab it and hit shield and run back.

If your team has the relic go wait in stealth by their relic spot. After your team returns their relic when it respawns a lot of the time people won't be guarding it that quickly. GRAB IT.

Most times i get 3 or more relics sometimes all five. Last night I got three. Usually I get them all quickly and it's a quick win.

xylena_lazarow · February 28

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I'll never understand why games do not give rewards for node defenders.

Check this one out. I was the primary relic defender for this match, often alone, did it perfect. The game was surprisingly competitive, the other team simply couldn't score. Apparently the 0-5 on the team with 0 points did more than me (no thanks to the game not even tracking all the cross-shielding I'm putting on my allies who help defend).

CTR is a ton of fun in the rare times its 100% competitive and doesn't devolve into 100-0 turtling. The mode has potential. Other modes rotate through variants, but there's only one form of CTR, like why not variants with multiple relics to break up the camping meta? Or a variant where the relic damages you like a Chaosball so no stalemating?

I'm glad the 3-sided CTR is gone though because it was seriously just random nonsense with no attempt at strats, half the lobby trying to DM, the other half avoiding PvP and running relics unopposed. In 2-sided, the DMers make sure nobody runs relics unopposed, only one side to go after, therefore helping their team. Two birds with one stone.

kwinter · February 28

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

Artim_X · February 28

This is why three teams is ideal. Too easy too stalemate with two teams in this mode.

the1andonlyskwex · February 28

kwinter wrote: »

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

There's another game that has/had (I haven't played in over a decade) a really good mode like this. It also allowed players to pass the relic to teammates (or accidentally to opponents) and had special map designs with timed hazards that made it impossible to just grab the "relic" and sprint straight to base. I think the timed hazards were particularly important in order to force people into fights while carrying the "relic".

Part of the problem with ESO's CTR mode is that getting back to base after grabbing the relic is too easy. Unless you're really slow, you can usually just sprint back to base without any opponents being able to catch you. This results in very little counter play once a relic has been grabbed in the first place. I liked the timed environmental hazards in the other game that forced carriers to stop and wait for their opponents to catch up, but I suspect even something like a 50% relic carrier speed debuff would be better than what we have now.

Pixiepumpkin · February 28

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

show previous quotes

kwinter wrote: »

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

There's another game that has/had (I haven't played in over a decade) a really good mode like this. It also allowed players to pass the relic to teammates (or accidentally to opponents) and had special map designs with timed hazards that made it impossible to just grab the "relic" and sprint straight to base. I think the timed hazards were particularly important in order to force people into fights while carrying the "relic".

Part of the problem with ESO's CTR mode is that getting back to base after grabbing the relic is too easy. Unless you're really slow, you can usually just sprint back to base without any opponents being able to catch you. This results in very little counter play once a relic has been grabbed in the first place. I liked the timed environmental hazards in the other game that forced carriers to stop and wait for their opponents to catch up, but I suspect even something like a 50% relic carrier speed debuff would be better than what we have now.

Huttball in SWTOR. You could pass it, the arena had hazards. Was a lot of fun!

the1andonlyskwex · February 28

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

show previous quotes

kwinter wrote: »

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

There's another game that has/had (I haven't played in over a decade) a really good mode like this. It also allowed players to pass the relic to teammates (or accidentally to opponents) and had special map designs with timed hazards that made it impossible to just grab the "relic" and sprint straight to base. I think the timed hazards were particularly important in order to force people into fights while carrying the "relic".

Part of the problem with ESO's CTR mode is that getting back to base after grabbing the relic is too easy. Unless you're really slow, you can usually just sprint back to base without any opponents being able to catch you. This results in very little counter play once a relic has been grabbed in the first place. I liked the timed environmental hazards in the other game that forced carriers to stop and wait for their opponents to catch up, but I suspect even something like a 50% relic carrier speed debuff would be better than what we have now.

Also, if they made it harder to run the relic across the map, they could probably reduce the relic pickup time (by a lot), which would result in more interesting gameplay around the relic. What we have now often degrades into a situation where picking up a relic requires wiping out all of the defenders fast enough that they're all respawning at the same time, which only works when the teams are badly unbalanced or ignoring defense.

the1andonlyskwex · February 28

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

kwinter wrote: »

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

There's another game that has/had (I haven't played in over a decade) a really good mode like this. It also allowed players to pass the relic to teammates (or accidentally to opponents) and had special map designs with timed hazards that made it impossible to just grab the "relic" and sprint straight to base. I think the timed hazards were particularly important in order to force people into fights while carrying the "relic".

Part of the problem with ESO's CTR mode is that getting back to base after grabbing the relic is too easy. Unless you're really slow, you can usually just sprint back to base without any opponents being able to catch you. This results in very little counter play once a relic has been grabbed in the first place. I liked the timed environmental hazards in the other game that forced carriers to stop and wait for their opponents to catch up, but I suspect even something like a 50% relic carrier speed debuff would be better than what we have now.

Huttball in SWTOR. You could pass it, the arena had hazards. Was a lot of fun!

Exactly! I wasn't sure I could name names.

Eliahnus · February 28

Also, it almost always takes a full 15 minutes and if you do not capture the relic but defend your base you gain ZERO medals for doing this.

Major_Mangle · February 28

kwinter wrote: »

Actually someone mentioned have one relic. You could then place in central location that is random require both teams to fight for and take back to base for score. Maybe allow multiple relics and lower score from 100 to 50 for each relic capture

I would've loved something like this. Preferably on a map even bigger than the 8v8 maps we've now. The problem with the 4v4v4 version of CTR was that the best tactic was to avoid interaction with the enemy team and essentially hope that they instead fought eachother so you could take unprotected relics. Under no circumstances should "avoiding pvp" ever be the best viable tactic. Running between uncontested point of interest isn't PvP in my eyes. The fact that it was the best tactic was a symptom of poor design (nothing "tactical or big brain" about avoiding the other teams).

But your suggestion of having a relic that randomly spawns that you've to retrieve sounds fun. Only thing I'd want to add is to make it so that the person holding the relic has a debuff that slows you down with time, so you've to pass the relic between other teammates.

Sarannah · February 28

Ishtarknows wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sarannah wrote: »

Another issue in 8x8 is the chaosball transformations, you are just waiting to die. Remove those transformations when taking the ball!

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation? I usually run BGs as a healer and can keep team mates alive when morphed, but when I'm vampire myself? I just watch my health steadily drop. None of the skills seem to do anything to help!

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Another issue in 8x8 is the chaosball transformations, you are just waiting to die. Remove those transformations when taking the ball!

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation? I usually run BGs as a healer and can keep team mates alive when morphed, but when I'm vampire myself? I just watch my health steadily drop. None of the skills seem to do anything to help!

I'd like to know this also. Unless I'm attacked attack back just standing there i just watch my health drop.

Nothing I do when transformed as either a vampire or werewolf works to heal myself so I also just wait to die, and it seems like everyone else does as well(haven't seen anybody stay alive yet when transformed both enemy and friendly, unless they were massively healed by teammates). In the werewolf transformation you can gain slight bits of health with the fifth skill and hitting an enemy, but that isn't even enough to offset the chaosball's damage itself.

These transformations in chaosball really need to be changed or removed, it's just stupid! Have absolutely no idea how something like this made it to the live servers.

PS: Edited to fix the quotes.

Orbital78 · February 28

Artim_X wrote: »

This is why three teams is ideal. Too easy too stalemate with two teams in this mode.

IMO they should lower the cap to 2 so the matches don't always go 15min. Personally I like two teams better, but the relic one really drags on.

Orbital78 · February 28

Sarannah wrote: »

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation?

The drain heals a lot, but you need a target and to not get swarmed. Depending on the experience of your opponents you can wreck newer players pretty fast just feasting on them.

valenwood_vegan · February 28

Appreciate the discussion y'all, definitely some good ideas here. I do hope they'll look at reworking Capture the Relic; I personally haven't minded the other modes so much, but I agree that the chaosball transformations aren't great either... it's definitely not a fun experience having your abilities changed in the middle of a battle and not knowing what they do, lol.

Estin · February 28

It's a bad game mode. It was ok in 3 teams, but 2 teams it's really bad, especially when there's multiple healers and more people balling together.

I made a suggestion in another thread that the game mode should have minor relics worth 50 points, and anything turned into a minor relic base be worth 50 points. This would make it so you don't have an entire team camping 1 relic, but there would still be a value in going after the main relic. Depending on the map, there could be 2 minor relics, but for the smaller ones, there could be only 1 minor relic. The game mode would probably end a lot quicker, but it's worth it since capture the relic almost always lasts for the full 15 minutes.

ajkb78 · March 4

Mostly I'm a fan of the new 2-team BGs, but I do kind of agree the relic game is terrible. For a game where defence becomes everything the scoring is not at all well thought out where defending gets you zero medals, and compared with the old games the 2-team approach is too prone to turtle tactics after one team gains an advantage. Perhaps the relic points should apply a growing DOT to defenders in the area to make it harder to turtle up? Overall the 4x4 BGs seem a lot more successful, though 8x8 dominion and deathmatch are decent. There are enough flag points in 8x8 dominion that it never becomes static, and there's a decent tactical balance between dividing resources or concentrating them to take one flag. I think chaosball and relics could do with going back to 3-way matches (maybe 5x5x5 or 6x6x6?)

allochthons · March 4

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Is there any way to heal when you have the vampire transformation? I usually run BGs as a healer and can keep team mates alive when morphed, but when I'm vampire myself? I just watch my health steadily drop. None of the skills seem to do anything to help!

There is a self-heal on the vampire bar (L1 / 4th skill), but despite the tooltip, it never seems very effective. And it has a 3 second cast time. (/facepalm)
No group heal.

(also pinging @Veinblood1965, @Sarannah, since they both asked about the heal as well)

BTW, here's the WW bar. It's the same in the Infinite Archive:

Sorry there's no screenshot of the bar, I'll get one next time I see it.