Mages Light and Expert Hunters ranges are ineffective.

Duke_Falcon · February 26

The ranges of Mages Light & Expert Hunter are ineffective. I’ve tested them extensively in real combat situations and the range of them makes them nearly pointless and the cost of them is insane as a counter compared to the cost of stealth options. The ranges need expanded to reflect the range of ranged skills, and the cost needs reduced to reflect the cost of stealth options so there is a possibility for counter play.

fred4 · February 26

What were your tests?

These skills are for preventing visible nightblades from reentering stealth. In that role they excel. The skills pulse every 1s. You cast them while you are in a fight at melee range, or while closely pursuing a fleeing nightblade that has not entered stealth yet. You may get away with casting them just as they cloak, but it's better to cast them when the nightblade has lost health and you merely anticipate them cloaking.

These skills may also deter nightblades from attacking and may, perhaps, counter some bombing builds. You might use them while waiting for a flag to turn. However, do not expect to expose a nightblade that way. Expect to merely deter some of them. If you want to catch nightblades and your build is tanky enough to survive a gank, bait them by not running that skill and by not blocking.

These skills are not suitable for detecting nightblades speculatively, e.g. when you don't already know one is close. If that is something you really want to do, wear the Sentry set. That set has unlimited range. It might be what your heart desires. Other alternatives include playing a streaking sorc or a high-speed magblade yourself. Those types of builds tend to accidentally expose nightblades by virtue of how they play.

Nightblade is a solo class. Some are gankers. Some are brawlers. Some are questers. Some are Tel Var farmers. Above all, the class gives the player the means to deal with being outnumbered. Specifically it gives newer players the option to only engage when they choose, to not be zerged at every single opportunity. IMO this playstyle has a place. If you haven't played stealth yourself, and done so for a while, you IMO have no business talking about class balance, e.g. judging detection ranges and skill costs. If you had played stealth, you would know that being countered by a player who uses detection properly is brutal for the nightblade already.

BixenteN7Akantor · February 26

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The ranges of Mages Light & Expert Hunter are ineffective. I’ve tested them extensively in real combat situations and the range of them makes them nearly pointless and the cost of them is insane as a counter compared to the cost of stealth options. The ranges need expanded to reflect the range of ranged skills, and the cost needs reduced to reflect the cost of stealth options so there is a possibility for counter play.

I can only agree. Those skills are pathetic to counter invisibility. They barely detect anything and mostly waste your slots.

Soraka · February 26

The morph that prevents stun from stealth is pretty handy

dark_hunterxmg · February 27

They would work better if there wasn't a desync caused by stealthed players moving quickly. Even friendly stealthed players appear to be glitching around (forward fast-crouch-forward fast-crouch). When enemy players do it, they tend to just disappear because the glitch will cause you to lose them when they get just slightly out of range.

Sluggy · February 27

fred4 wrote: »

... the Sentry set.That set has unlimited range...

Overall agree with your post. I just wanted to point out that this set isn't unlimited. It's about 100 meters which is just beyond the draw distance for enemy players. I haven't determined if the detection range tracks with you or is fixed at the location you crouched.

Another detail some may not know is that exposes all stealthed and invisible enemies for ALL allies, not just yourself.

Duke_Falcon · March 7

fred4 wrote: »

What were your tests?

These skills are for preventing visible nightblades from reentering stealth. In that role they excel. The skills pulse every 1s. You cast them while you are in a fight at melee range, or while closely pursuing a fleeing nightblade that has not entered stealth yet. You may get away with casting them just as they cloak, but it's better to cast them when the nightblade has lost health and you merely anticipate them cloaking.

These skills may also deter nightblades from attacking and may, perhaps, counter some bombing builds. You might use them while waiting for a flag to turn. However, do not expect to expose a nightblade that way. Expect to merely deter some of them. If you want to catch nightblades and your build is tanky enough to survive a gank, bait them by not running that skill and by not blocking.

These skills are not suitable for detecting nightblades speculatively, e.g. when you don't already know one is close. If that is something you really want to do, wear the Sentry set. That set has unlimited range. It might be what your heart desires. Other alternatives include playing a streaking sorc or a high-speed magblade yourself. Those types of builds tend to accidentally expose nightblades by virtue of how they play.

Nightblade is a solo class. Some are gankers. Some are brawlers. Some are questers. Some are Tel Var farmers. Above all, the class gives the player the means to deal with being outnumbered. Specifically it gives newer players the option to only engage when they choose, to not be zerged at every single opportunity. IMO this playstyle has a place. If you haven't played stealth yourself, and done so for a while, you IMO have no business talking about class balance, e.g. judging detection ranges and skill costs. If you had played stealth, you would know that being countered by a player who uses detection properly is brutal for the nightblade already.

Try to fight a nightblade in a 1v1 battle and use Mages Light as your counter to their cloak. Its nearly impossible, not entirely impossible, but almost, its needs some balancing for sure. The cost of Mages Light 4860 is nearly double the cost of Cloak 2629 to begin with so when someone hits it, it should "Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds.", but it doesn't. I've been standing on Nightblades I've streaked into and hit Mages Light right after and they still enter stealth.

fred4 · March 8

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

What were your tests?

These skills are for preventing visible nightblades from reentering stealth. In that role they excel. The skills pulse every 1s. You cast them while you are in a fight at melee range, or while closely pursuing a fleeing nightblade that has not entered stealth yet. You may get away with casting them just as they cloak, but it's better to cast them when the nightblade has lost health and you merely anticipate them cloaking.

These skills may also deter nightblades from attacking and may, perhaps, counter some bombing builds. You might use them while waiting for a flag to turn. However, do not expect to expose a nightblade that way. Expect to merely deter some of them. If you want to catch nightblades and your build is tanky enough to survive a gank, bait them by not running that skill and by not blocking.

These skills are not suitable for detecting nightblades speculatively, e.g. when you don't already know one is close. If that is something you really want to do, wear the Sentry set. That set has unlimited range. It might be what your heart desires. Other alternatives include playing a streaking sorc or a high-speed magblade yourself. Those types of builds tend to accidentally expose nightblades by virtue of how they play.

Nightblade is a solo class. Some are gankers. Some are brawlers. Some are questers. Some are Tel Var farmers. Above all, the class gives the player the means to deal with being outnumbered. Specifically it gives newer players the option to only engage when they choose, to not be zerged at every single opportunity. IMO this playstyle has a place. If you haven't played stealth yourself, and done so for a while, you IMO have no business talking about class balance, e.g. judging detection ranges and skill costs. If you had played stealth, you would know that being countered by a player who uses detection properly is brutal for the nightblade already.

Try to fight a nightblade in a 1v1 battle and use Mages Light as your counter to their cloak. Its nearly impossible, not entirely impossible, but almost, its needs some balancing for sure. The cost of Mages Light 4860 is nearly double the cost of Cloak 2629 to begin with so when someone hits it, it should "Summon a mote of magelight, revealing stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 4 seconds.", but it doesn't. I've been standing on Nightblades I've streaked into and hit Mages Light right after and they still enter stealth.

The duration of Magelight is 7 seconds nowadays. Cost per second, using your numbers, is 1315 for Cloak and 695 for Magelight.

First things first. If a nightblade disappears, it isn't necessarily Cloak. It could be Shadow Image. Can you tell the difference? Genuine question. If the Shadow Image is behind, you might not be able to, but if it is in your field of view, you see a whoosh, some visual effect like that. I once hunted a ganker way into the upper floor of an IC house, due to seeing that. They did not expect me, but I'm a magblade and I know all their tricks. At the end of the day, learning that stuff is what the game is about, just like, as a sorc, you learn the inaccessible or protected places you can streak to.

If a player disappears in IC, they might also be changing campaign to save their Tel Var, regardless of class.

Finally, Streak into Magelight is arguably the wrong way to use those skills. It's Magelight first, THEN Streak. That way Magelight is already pulsing, cause I agree, if you use Magelight, especially just Inner Light, nightblades may be fast enough, or the server may be desynced enough, that you won't catch them. It can be a PITA skill to use in a 1v1 to actually kill a nightblade, because spending a GCD on it in a timely fashion, before the nightblade cloaks, makes you slack off on the pressure. Nonetheless, that's exactly it. Your error was likely using the skill too late, because you likely felt you had a kill opportunity, not accounting for cloak. If you DO account for cloak in a timely fashion, whether that involves Magelight or something else, this changes things considerably. It's a bit like (me on my) DK forgetting to use Fossilize / Shattering Rocks to prevent the target from healing or ulting when they are almost dead. However, that's why the real answer is to have a detection potion slotted, because it doesn't take a GCD to use. On the other hand, Magelight spam in a group, or even just a duo, can be brutal against a nightblade who relies on cloak.

I contend that nightblades being able to escape is by design. Was it a good dueller? Did they do a lot of damage? Speed greatly synergises with cloak, but you have to run quite a compromised nightblade to have a good chance of escape via speed. This, again, means you're probably playing in IC, because you have an incentive to build that way, there.

Having said all that, I main a magblade and I've played sorc. Aside from the fact that magsorc tends to be single target and may struggle to execute dodge rollers, sorc is among the most brutal counters to a cloaking nightblade. The combination of raw pressure and survivability you get out of magsorc is very hard to match. It's immediate pressure, because the typical magsorc gets it from damage passives, spamming damage and proccing frags, not from DOTs. Sorc can keep that up for longer than other classes, not really because of the shield, but because of the ease with which Streak or BoL momentarily resets a fight in a single GCD.

I guess it's possible I'm not talking about every sorc build here. Some people make it their business to hunt NBs. I find nightblades easy kills on the whole, because it doesn't take complex DOT rotations or burst combos to kill many of them, those who lean on cloak. Although I like having Magelight or Camou Hunter in a build, I'd recommend a detection potion, when available. Judging by my experience on the receiving end, some people really have this down. I guess maybe they hate nightblades, but more likely it reflects the fact that you can have a lot of kills if you put some effort and practice into countering them.

All I ask is that you consider it also from the nightblade's perspective. Play one for a while. I assure you, it's harder to play than magsorc in the current meta, at least if you don't focus on a narrow goal, such as only sniping (which I've never done, but always assumed to be an easy starter playstyle).

ViggyBoi · March 10

honestly ive had no real issues with these skills. Stealth breaking is very strong given the right context and these skills give you the ability to remove it on demand for a high cost in a limited area which honestly is more than fair. You arent meant to use them to search for a NB they are moreso used when you already know one is around. The real issue isnt the range but desyncs or the massive potential disparity in speed between you and your target. Nightblades usually hit the classic double roll dodge into stealth and if they have really high movement speed they are likely to disappear within your range but be out of it by the time you react. This is why when fighting a NB if I get a good read on their patterns i always preemptively pop mage light. All but the really good ones wont realize in time they are exposed and drop to a few more hits or burn their stam roll dodge spamming until their reveal times out.