I have a hot take about ESO, i think?

FabresFour · February 25

Well, The Elder Scrolls Online is turning 11 years old this year, and I think it’s worth bringing up a point I’d like to see discussed here on the forum. Last year, I made a post about ESO becoming more and more of a caricature of itself. However, I’d like to propose the following: ESO is a caricature of The Elder Scrolls.

The Elder Scrolls Online never sets out to represent Tamriel in its entirety. It takes concepts from Tamriel, simplifies them, and integrates them into a world where these concepts can function together simultaneously.

When we look at Skyrim, the Tamriel presented there is fundamentally different from the Tamriel in Oblivion, just as Oblivion’s Tamriel is fundamentally different from Morrowind’s, which in turn is different from Daggerfall’s, and so on back to Arena.

The Elder Scrolls Online does what every other game in the franchise has done: it adapts the world of Tamriel to fit an game-type(MMORPG), which means simplifying many concepts (which is why we see the Nords of Windhelm and Riften, for example, sharing the same architecture despite being fundamentally different cities), while also exaggerating others (magic in ESO is far more widespread and accessible than in any other game in the series, and I believe this is due to gameplay mechanics rather than lore).

In other words, ESO bends the TES universe to fit the game it aims to be—an MMORPG. Just as the other games also bend the TES universe and create their own versions of it to fit the type of game they are trying to be.

ESO should not, in my opinion, be seen as the most faithful representation of the TES universe because, from my perspective, that’s exactly what it is—a caricature of the universe adapted to fit the MMORPG genre. And that’s not a problem.

(Just to clarify, my criticism in another thread was about ESO becoming a caricature of itself, which is something I see as a problem. But as a caricature of TES? One of the many interpretations that Nirn has? That, I don’t see as an issue.)

This post is just a random opinion and observation that popped into my head, and I thought it was worth sharing with you all here on the forum.

prof-dracko · February 25

I'd argue that ESO is far more lore accurate and it's Skyrim and Oblivion that are drastically watered down to fit the popular fantasy genres of their time.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 25

while also exaggerating others (magic in ESO is far more widespread and accessible than in any other game in the series, and I believe this is due to gameplay mechanics rather than lore).

Elder Scrolls is a fantasy setting with high magic and plenty of it. Especially in earlier eras, which ESO is set in. Not like the 4th which takes place in Skyrim, that has become a backwater that forgot the clever craft (and its pantheon), because grimdark was popular genre.

colossalvoids · February 25

Well, yeah? That's an elder scrolls theme park, quite literally.

FabresFour · February 25

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

while also exaggerating others (magic in ESO is far more widespread and accessible than in any other game in the series, and I believe this is due to gameplay mechanics rather than lore).

Elder Scrolls is a fantasy setting with high magic and plenty of it. Especially in earlier eras, which ESO is set in. Not like the 4th which takes place in Skyrim, that has become a backwater that forgot the clever craft (and its pantheon), because grimdark was popular genre.

I understand that perspective, but I’m not sure I fully agree. The way magic is presented in ESO differs significantly—even for beings who have existed for millennia. Take Divayth Fyr, for example. He appears in both ESO and Morrowind, yet his understanding and approach to magic vary between the two games.

Magic in ESO is conceptually distinct, and this seems to be more a result of the game’s format than a deliberate lore decision. The developers have already altered key aspects of the universe to fit gameplay mechanics rather than staying strictly faithful to established lore.

A prime example is spellcrafting. Originally announced in 2014 with the classic schools of magic, the system was later overhauled into Scribing, with the justification that "spellcrafting hasn’t been invented yet." This directly contradicts in-game evidence, such as spellcrafting manuals and references to traditional schools of magic found in ESO’s books. This shows that lore is not an unshakable foundation—it can be rewritten or ignored entirely when mechanics demand it. If ESO were truly committed to a consistent depiction of magic, such contradictions wouldn’t exist in the first place.

prof-dracko wrote: »

I'd argue that ESO is far more lore accurate and it's Skyrim and Oblivion that are drastically watered down to fit the popular fantasy genres of their time.

I have to disagree with that statement. In my personal opinion, While it’s true that Skyrim and Oblivion streamlined certain aspects of the lore to fit their respective gameplay and audience expectations, ESO is no different—it also simplifies and distorts numerous concepts to fit the MMORPG format.

A clear example of this is how ESO doesn’t just reuse assets but outright homogenizes cultural distinctions that were once more nuanced. Take the Nords, for instance. In ESO, they’ve been reduced to a near-parody of their former selves, often depicted as drunken, rowdy brutes with little of the depth and complexity seen in previous games. The same goes for their cities—Windhelm and Riften, which should have distinct architectural and cultural identities, end up looking almost identical because of asset reuse and oversimplification.

Or even the languages spoken by the people of Tamriel. In the other games, it’s clear that different races still use their native tongues. The Khajiit still use Ta’agra. However, in ESO, it’s made quite apparent that Ta’agra was abandoned a long time ago. (Zerith-var dialogue)

Additionally, the repeated re-use of assets throughout High Rock and the oversimplification of Valenwood’s concept are very noticeable. Valenwood was once described as a land of walking trees, home to other species like the Imga that were meant to inhabit its wilds. Yet all of this has been drastically simplified to fit the MMORPG format.

And that’s without even mentioning the excessive visual extravagance introduced to support monetization. The game is filled with overly colorful, glowing, and fantastical mounts—something that none of the other TES games ever portrayed as a natural part of the universe. The only exception might be Arvak, a summoned steed tied to the Dragonborn’s power. Meanwhile, in ESO, we see NPCs casually walking alongside Atronach animals, as if such creatures were a normal part of everyday life.

I love ESO, but I think it’s important to understand how it differs from the other Elder Scrolls games. ESO is a far more high-fantasy game than any other TES title—infinitely more high fantasy. And I don’t think that’s a problem. It’s simply a different interpretation of the same universe, just as every Elder Scrolls game is its own unique interpretation of that universe.

spartaxoxo · February 25

I think the MMO nature of the game also makes it feel more high fantasy than the ESO lore itself.

For example, the flashy mounts are mostly only owned by players. But only your own character is the real vestige. Other players are random adventurers. They don't generally impact the narrative at all.

There's other things like that too, such as the justice making it feel like guards have some type of connection with one another that transcends realms. This is just because in an MMO, it is trivial to hop continents and realms. So, your bounty has to be shared across everywhere instead of being hold specific. The vestige is also the only one with canonical ability to rez. But we are able to rez companions and other adventurers by gameplay necessity.

Heren · February 25

FabresFour wrote: »

And that’s not a problem.

Cool then.

Jestir · February 25

I do believe that it is Skyrim which tries to push the Nords as viking strong men only which is out of line with the overall lore.

ESO doesn't fit what Skyrim showed cause Skyrim ignored lore to make it a more popular game

Soarora · February 25

I don’t think its ESO, I think it’s the games as a whole. People complained about Skyrim for the city sizes not being lore accurate (Whiterun should be much larger, etc), Oblivion for Cyrodiil not being a jungle, Daggerfall and Arena are barely even considered, I think only Morrowind I have not heard complaints about. People also complained about Legends even though the stories are exaggerated and twisted on purpose. Castles gave us a race for Tiber Septim, which could be argued, etc etc.

All TES games add to the lore, and all (aside from maybe Morrowind) TES games simplify it, including ESO.

That said, your point still stands, do we consider the games to be the lore, or the writings within the games? Do we consider books, fanfiction, developer statements to be the lore? Does TES have lore or is it all up to us as individuals to decide? That is the question that haunts us, and one that has no one true answer.

katanagirl1 · February 26

As a console player, my experience comes from the games we are allowed to play, only Oblivion and later. So it might not be as complete as a PC player. However, I would not say that ESO is a caricature, since that word to me means something that is meant not to be taken seriously. There is some humor in the game, and I appreciate it, but as a whole I take the game very seriously. I feel any changes that were made to produce the game were made with good reasons for creating the game and the gameplay experience in the MMO setting. Like everyone says according to lore that Grahtwood should have enough trees to block out the sun, but I don’t think doing that in a multiplayer game ten years ago was possible.

Finedaible · February 26

In my opinion, after the Elsweyr chapter is when things started going all Harry Potter and Disney-esque themes. The base game zones' writing, Wrothgar, Thieves' Guild, and Dark Brotherhood were far more accurate to The Elder Scrolls' style of grounded fantasy.

I have brought up the complaint many times now that these days in ESO every single character has magic matching the legendary powers of the Skeleton Key. For example, the Tanlorin and Zerith-Var questlines abused portals to such an absurd amount that I felt pulled out of the world of Tamriel every single time just to cut to the chase; It's a shame too because that was the main annoyance in Zerith-Var's questline despite everything else in it being pretty great, except for maybe how comical the "Inquisition" was perhaps. There's no more of that characteristic immersion that the great Elder Scrolls writers had back in the day.

High Isle was an absolute Disney theme park in every aspect right up to the way the music sounded.

FabresFour · February 26

katanagirl1 wrote: »

As a console player, my experience comes from the games we are allowed to play, only Oblivion and later. So it might not be as complete as a PC player. However, I would not say that ESO is a caricature, since that word to me means something that is meant not to be taken seriously. There is some humor in the game, and I appreciate it, but as a whole I take the game very seriously. I feel any changes that were made to produce the game were made with good reasons for creating the game and the gameplay experience in the MMO setting. Like everyone says according to lore that Grahtwood should have enough trees to block out the sun, but I don’t think doing that in a multiplayer game ten years ago was possible.

Maybe this is a linguistic matter. In Portuguese, the meaning of "caricatura" is the same as in English, but we use it in a different way. Many times, we use this term to say that something has the "highlighted" characteristics. It’s not the actual meaning of the word, but it's commonly used in everyday speech.

For example, a Brazilian might say: The vision of the human fishermen who visited the port of Alinor is a caricature of the real Alinor, as they were enchanted by the city's beauty, which led them to exaggerate its features.

I didn't mean to use a negative term, my apologies.

Amottica · February 26

I read that each TES game is fundamentally different than the others and that ESO follows that same line in that it is fundamentally different and packaged as the MMORPG it is.

Profoundly accurate.

But then, somehow, ESO would not be seen as lore-accurate. Since it was already determined that each game bends to the game it is, being that each is fundamentally different, it stands to be very logical that ESO would bend to the game it is.

Further, Zenimax owns the lore; hence, they determine what it is, and lore often changes or bends some when telling a story in a different era.

Amottica · February 26

katanagirl1 wrote: »

As a console player, my experience comes from the games we are allowed to play, only Oblivion and later. So it might not be as complete as a PC player. However, I would not say that ESO is a caricature, since that word to me means something that is meant not to be taken seriously. There is some humor in the game, and I appreciate it, but as a whole I take the game very seriously. I feel any changes that were made to produce the game were made with good reasons for creating the game and the gameplay experience in the MMO setting. Like everyone says according to lore that Grahtwood should have enough trees to block out the sun, but I don’t think doing that in a multiplayer game ten years ago was possible.

It seems you are correct since the primary definition of caricature, as it tends to be used in the USA, is a comedic or foolish exaggeration or imitation of something. I suppose someone could boil down the word to its core, which is simply a representation of something, but that is turning it into a rather bland take on the word.

Froil · February 26

Finedaible wrote: »

In my opinion, after the Elsweyr chapter is when things started going all Harry Potter and Disney-esque themes. The base game zones' writing, Wrothgar, Thieves' Guild, and Dark Brotherhood were far more accurate to The Elder Scrolls' style of grounded fantasy.

Personally I think Elsweyr was peak, Greymoor onward was downhill.

High Isle was an absolute Disney theme park in every aspect right up to the way the music sounded.

Yeah High Isle (the whole year) was nonsensical at best; it had some okay parts, like the (Galen Spoiler)

Church being destroyed as part of Galen's main quest.

I was really expecting some political intrigue/whodunit elements.
I absolutely did not like how the druids are portrayed, they feel like generic fantasy wood elves (tree huggersx1000) more than the Bosmer do, and I hate how they're all referred to as "Druid So-and-so", almost making it seem like their first names start with Druid.

Heren · February 26

Froil wrote: »

Yeah High Isle (the whole year) was nonsensical at best; it had some okay parts, like the (Galen Spoiler)
Church being destroyed as part of Galen's main quest.
I was really expecting some political intrigue/whodunit elements.
I absolutely did not like how the druids are portrayed, they feel like generic fantasy wood elves (tree huggersx1000) more than the Bosmer do, and I hate how they're all referred to as "Druid So-and-so", almost making it seem like their first names start with Druid.

The lack of political deepness in High Isle was a huge disappointment indeed - but in all fairness almost every other chapter also lack that, although in varying degree. The 'One Tamriel' thing did most likely blurr things at this lvl, and every zone just welcome you with ( almost ) open arms, no matter your faction, which is... often weird.

But more broadly, a lot of zones just feel empty, stories wise. You don't have a lot of side-stories development within a zone, wich lead to large portions of these being empty - like almost all the northern part of High Isle, wich consist of... two ruined fortresses. No people, almost no story ( aside from the cursed castle of the evil and the mausoleum of the good knight, which are kinda meager ), almost no environemental storytelling ( oh, there is a large faun, beware ), just... nothing. Like they didn't have the ressources - be it time or people - to really use this part of High Isle, so it's almost empty.

There is ideas, sometime promising ones ( i did like the scrambles and fight between the differents druid-clans ), but when it come to make something out of this ideas... I remeber the annoucement stream for High Isle, when the three noble houses of High Isle were presented, the balance of power in the archipelago. Well, one house is the ruling somehow good et abused one, the other is the sidelined evil-not evil in fact one, and the last is just the dubious one that turn out to be the real evil one all along. No real interactions between these three, they are just very static. Which is a shame I think.

Same could be said about the knight orders, and most likely about many other things, from High Isle or other chapters.

katanagirl1 · February 26

FabresFour wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

As a console player, my experience comes from the games we are allowed to play, only Oblivion and later. So it might not be as complete as a PC player. However, I would not say that ESO is a caricature, since that word to me means something that is meant not to be taken seriously. There is some humor in the game, and I appreciate it, but as a whole I take the game very seriously. I feel any changes that were made to produce the game were made with good reasons for creating the game and the gameplay experience in the MMO setting. Like everyone says according to lore that Grahtwood should have enough trees to block out the sun, but I don’t think doing that in a multiplayer game ten years ago was possible.

Maybe this is a linguistic matter. In Portuguese, the meaning of "caricatura" is the same as in English, but we use it in a different way. Many times, we use this term to say that something has the "highlighted" characteristics. It’s not the actual meaning of the word, but it's commonly used in everyday speech.

For example, a Brazilian might say: The vision of the human fishermen who visited the port of Alinor is a caricature of the real Alinor, as they were enchanted by the city's beauty, which led them to exaggerate its features.

I didn't mean to use a negative term, my apologies.

Ah, I see. The word is not strongly negative, especially in other cases. A caricature could be part of satire and used in an entertaining way, which is not inherently negative. It is often used to make fun of politicians or celebrities though, so it usually does not highlight their positive qualities. Not necessarily a bad thing either, when the person who the caricature is based on is considered inept or ineffective in their role.

Thanks for the insight.

Elvenheart · February 26

For me, the Tamriel of ESO is like the Tamriel version of the 80’s, with colorful flashy clothes and rides, big hair and shoulders, styles some of us look back at fondly yet incredulously, etc. The Tamriel of the other games are like more recent years, not nearly as colorful. When I play Skyrim, and keeping in mind that ESO is two eras in the past, it’s like all that color and magic has just disappeared, leaving a bleaker, darker Tamriel.