Why do CP levels need to be visible?

abkam · February 23

I'm a player with 2k+ CP's. I have almost every item in the game, though I’m missing some because I don’t enjoy certain activities too much. I only earn those items when I truly need to go to those places.

I have 44k+ achievement points, and believe me, I don’t actively hunt them, except for dungeons and trials. After all, we really need those to prove how good we are, right?

But from time to time, I like to play on my alt account CP 400-, and it's so damn hard to do anything with it. I can't join other groups because I’m "not good enough." And if I create a group, people join and then leave because my CP is too low. Even when I link Trial HM achievements or Dungeon trifectas, they don’t believe me, just because of my low CP.
Or maybe what we really need is a QoL improvement in Group Finder, something that shows if players have enough experience.
For example, it could track:

How many times a player has completed a vDungeon/Trial
How many weapons they’re still missing from that content

I’m not sure what the best solution is, but something needs to change. CP'S is nothing more than a tool to keep players locked out of content.

So, tell me; why on earth do you need to see a player's CP if they’ve already linked the achievement? If a player can prove they’ve completed the content, why does CP still matter?

And I’d love to suggest an improvement to Group Finder:
"If a raid leader creates a vet group with achievement requirements, only players who have vet achievement should be able to join."
The game should be able to automatically detect whether a player have vet achievement before allowing them to join.

RealLoveBVB · February 23

Not everyone thinks like this. I like to join random groups too and often those low CPs are better than "veterans" with their heavy attack builds.

abkam · February 23

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Not everyone thinks like this. I like to join random groups too and often those low CPs are better than "veterans" with their heavy attack builds.

By far for sure.

aleksandr_ESO · February 23

abkam wrote: »

So, tell me; why on earth do you need to see a player's CP if they’ve already linked the achievement? If a player can prove they’ve completed the content, why does CP still matter?

An achievement link is just a piece of text that you insert into a chat. It can be modified, so it doesn't prove anything.

abkam · February 23

Let's try to focus on the topic. Why do CP levels need to be visible? If the only reason is to keep players out of content for no reason, then let's hope and ask for a simple change; hiding CP from others.

Instead of visible CP levels, fix the group finder and update the code to automatically detect whether a player has the veteran achievement before allowing them to join.

OsUfi · February 23

I'd honestly love to do away with CP entirely. Hiding it in general should also be an option.

I have over 2000 CP, I PvP daily, hit arc 4 solo in Archive, and can solo nearly every world boss in the game. But I never wear meta gear or do vet dungeons (or dungeons at all anymore, rant-rant-toxic-mid-game-PvE-community). On the rare occasions I have set foot in vet dungeons I've done it with guildies, and I still get comments like "how do you reach 2k cp and you've never done Ruins of Mazzy vet?"

It's that expectation, you're clearly a vet, your CP tells everyone you're a vet, but there's suddenly pressure for you to be wearing Pillar, Rele, and Velothi and know what you're doing.

And that piddling ESO Logs can get in the bin. I'll be mid to high end on the DPS and get a "Wow, you did all that on your weird set up? Now put all on some real gear and you'll be a god!" No, no I won't be. I'm good with my builds and set ups cause I made them and use them everywhere. I use cookie cutter YouTube builds and I play like trash because I don't know what I'm doing. It's a part of the reason why I don't even raid with guild I like hanging with in normal mode trials anymore.

Urgh. Pressure and blargh. Give us a no-cp server or let us hide CP and I'd be a happy Bosmer.

abkam · February 23

OsUfi wrote: »

I'd honestly love to do away with CP entirely. Hiding it in general should also be an option.

I have over 2000 CP, I PvP daily, hit arc 4 solo in Archive, and can solo nearly every world boss in the game. But I never wear meta gear or do vet dungeons (or dungeons at all anymore, rant-rant-toxic-mid-game-PvE-community). On the rare occasions I have set foot in vet dungeons I've done it with guildies, and I still get comments like "how do you reach 2k cp and you've never done Ruins of Mazzy vet?"

It's that expectation, you're clearly a vet, your CP tells everyone you're a vet, but there's suddenly pressure for you to be wearing Pillar, Rele, and Velothi and know what you're doing.

And that piddling ESO Logs can get in the bin. I'll be mid to high end on the DPS and get a "Wow, you did all that on your weird set up? Now put all on some real gear and you'll be a god!" No, no I won't be. I'm good with my builds and set ups cause I made them and use them everywhere. I use cookie cutter YouTube builds and I play like trash because I don't know what I'm doing. It's a part of the reason why I don't even raid with guild I like hanging with in normal mode trials anymore.

Urgh. Pressure and blargh. Give us a no-cp server or let us hide CP and I'd be a happy Bosmer.

After reading "How do you reach 2k CP and you've never done Ruins of Mazzy vet?", I have to assume… yeah, I’ve probably done that too. Sadly.
I once saw a CP 3600 healer, and they were so bad. Like, unbelievably bad. We had to kick them from the trial. Otherwise, instead of mocked him just because he was CP 3600, but no real knowledge of healing, maybe we would have asked: "Is this your first time healing?" And maybe, we would have even helped him. But no. Instead, we all mocked him just because he was CP 3600 and had no idea how to heal. And I truly believe that was the first time I realized CP should not be visible at all.
Not just as an option, but hidden by default with no way to enable it. Because if it’s just an option, raid leaders will start demanding that it be turned ON, and we’ll end up right back where we are today.

Grizzbeorn · February 23

Would this not just give group members another incentive to kick someone, in this case for being unwilling to share their numbers?

Renato90085 · February 23

I totally support your idea..
i never care any player cp in pug ,i alway ask group have exp or need me teach mech.
for me cp only give you 10~15% dps(if you parse 80k it only 8k+),but if you are tank/healer cp It will be more important
i met/teach some dps who can solo do vcr+2 portal or solo vdsr reef in 600cp or parse dummy 100k when they only 400cp
Or met a 2k+ player loot Trophy in fg1 rnd...
I think people take cp too seriously..
know you can finished or have exp better than check you cp

abkam · February 23

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Would this not just give group members another incentive to kick someone, in this case for being unwilling to share their numbers?

Why?
I'm pretty sure you've already seen a CP 1000 Nightblade (or other) in your group dealing more DPS than a CP 2000+ Arcanist. And I can promise you that many great tanks, possibly some of the best in the game, love to tank on alt accounts with CP 400 or lower.
So why encourage kicking someone just because their CP is hidden?

OsUfi · February 23

abkam wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Would this not just give group members another incentive to kick someone, in this case for being unwilling to share their numbers?

So why encourage kicking someone just because their CP is hidden?

I imagine people would assume that hidden CP = low CP. I agree with his post. I also still want to hide CP.

Grizzbeorn · February 23

abkam wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Would this not just give group members another incentive to kick someone, in this case for being unwilling to share their numbers?

Why?
I'm pretty sure you've already seen a CP 1000 Nightblade (or other) in your group dealing more DPS than a CP 2000+ Arcanist. And I can promise you that many great tanks, possibly some of the best in the game, love to tank on alt accounts with CP 400 or lower.
So why encourage kicking someone just because their CP is hidden?

I'm not trying to encourage the behavior.
I do not run grouped content.
I was merely asking a question based on the well-documented prevalence of players to mistreat their fellow players; seemingly always on the look-out for ways to gate-keep.
Your idea could easily be abused in that manner.

abkam · February 23

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I'm not trying to encourage the behavior.
I do not run grouped content.
I was merely asking a question based on the well-documented prevalence of players to mistreat their fellow players; seemingly always on the look-out for ways to gate-keep.
Your idea could easily be abused in that manner.

I expressed myself wrong earlier, sorry about that!

But how can anyone abuse gatekeeping if CP levels are hidden? That's what I want to understand from all of you. If, somehow, the developers decided to hide CPs permanently, how could that be a bad thing? And why?

said no one ever · February 23

people can pay for a carry for end game content so thats not a great determiner. people can and do buy accounts so no metric is 100% guarantee really.

abkam · February 23

said no one ever wrote: »

people can pay for a carry for end game content so thats not a great determiner. people can and do buy accounts so no metric is 100% guarantee really.

Pugs don’t do endgame content. They can try, but they don’t actually do it! Only organized groups, most of them on Discordn handle endgame content. And in Discord, they don’t need to see your CP Ingame at all because they have your logs, parses, and screenshots.

And if someone buys a carry run, believe me—they won’t be running endgame content with any of those players for sure. From that point forward, they’ll have to pay for almost every HM content. 😆

sans-culottes · February 23

abkam wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I'm not trying to encourage the behavior.
I do not run grouped content.
I was merely asking a question based on the well-documented prevalence of players to mistreat their fellow players; seemingly always on the look-out for ways to gate-keep.
Your idea could easily be abused in that manner.

I expressed myself wrong earlier, sorry about that!

But how can anyone abuse gatekeeping if CP levels are hidden? That's what I want to understand from all of you. If, somehow, the developers decided to hide CPs permanently, how could that be a bad thing? And why?

Because then you’d just have to prove it in other, more tiresome ways. Hard pass on this idea, sorry.

Sluggy · February 23

abkam wrote: »

Even when I link Trial HM achievements or Dungeon trifectas, they don’t believe me, just because of my low CP.

If that's the case, they weren't good enough for you. You'd be wasting your time with them.

abkam · February 23

We just finished vDSR, and this @CP305 did 3-6-9 alone and almost solo bridges. How many raid leaders would actually allow him to join?

oldbobdude · February 23

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

So, tell me; why on earth do you need to see a player's CP if they’ve already linked the achievement? If a player can prove they’ve completed the content, why does CP still matter?

An achievement link is just a piece of text that you insert into a chat. It can be modified, so it doesn't prove anything.

Also, you can be carried through content and still get the achievement.

Arizona_Steve · February 23

Dunno, it's always fun to run into a CP3600er. Only seen two so far.

abkam · February 23

oldbobdude wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

So, tell me; why on earth do you need to see a player's CP if they’ve already linked the achievement? If a player can prove they’ve completed the content, why does CP still matter?

An achievement link is just a piece of text that you insert into a chat. It can be modified, so it doesn't prove anything.

Also, you can be carried through content and still get the achievement.

"The game should be able to automatically detect whether a player have vet achievement before allowing them to join."
How will someone be carried?

Ezhh · February 23

abkam wrote: »

But from time to time, I like to play on my alt account CP 400-, and it's so damn hard to do anything with it. I can't join other groups because I’m "not good enough." And if I create a group, people join and then leave because my CP is too low. Even when I link Trial HM achievements or Dungeon trifectas, they don’t believe me, just because of my low CP.
Or maybe what we really need is a QoL improvement in Group Finder, something that shows if players have enough experience.
For example, it could track:
How many times a player has completed a vDungeon/Trial

How many weapons they’re still missing from that content

I’m not sure what the best solution is, but something needs to change. CP'S is nothing more than a tool to keep players locked out of content.

So, tell me; why on earth do you need to see a player's CP if they’ve already linked the achievement? If a player can prove they’ve completed the content, why does CP still matter?

Out of curiosity, in addition to linking an achievement, do you say it's your alt account to explain the low CP? I did that on my own alt account and had zero issue being accepted for runs. I was able to join a carry group to raise a little gold and a trifecta team at 400CP when I switched server for a bit, and found random runs easy enough to get into as long as I told the lead it wasn't my main account. Sometimes they wanted to check I had okay equipment or asked what I'd cleared on my main account, but that was generally it.

As for moving from displaying CP to completion or equip collection info - wouldn't this be the same problem with a different number? I might never have done x trial or dungeon on my alt account but have done the trifecta on my main account multiple times. I'd be in the same situation as with CP.

From a lead perspective, I prefer to see CP, and if I have any doubts I'll ask someone a couple questions. I've had people under 160 try join for trials in the past and without being able to see CP I wouldn't be able to prevent that, and under 160 CP is almost definitely a problem. I personally feel much below 400 ish, depending on role and which content it is, might be an issue in general, since you simply don't have the survivability until a certain point. (And I say this as someone who has tanked CR+3 at 160CP - the attacks were practically one hits at this level even when blocked). I do want to stress this depends on content though. For vet dungeons and easier vet trials 160+ is fine.

Amottica · February 23

It is common in games like this to be able to see a character's level, and CP is part of a character's level even though it is account-wide.

As such, it would not make sense to hide it.

The better solution is to avoid playing with random players, find a guild that meets the player's needs, and run with them. This would lead to running with better and more consistent groups, improving the gaming experience overall and not preventing running solo when one wants to.

Win/Win

wolfie1.0. · February 23

I'm about to hit 2600 on my primary account. I have alt accounts thst range from no cp to 1000 cp.

On my primary want to know the primary thing that got me to that level?

Master crafting writs.

That's really it. I didn't really start doing other content until around 1800 - 1900

Cp is a poor judge of skill.

But skill aside it IS an indicator about how hard an interaction in pve can be. Cp does help a lot in keeping people alive. In a good group cp shouldn't matter too much. In a bad one it can matter a whole lot.

Heren · February 23

Yeah, let's get rid of this thing that keep players out of content, and implement that thing that... keep players out of content... but not me !

abkam · February 23

Ezhh wrote: »

Out of curiosity, in addition to linking an achievement, do you say it's your alt account to explain the low CP? I did that on my own alt account and had zero issue being accepted for runs. I was able to join a carry group to raise a little gold and a trifecta team at 400CP when I switched server for a bit, and found random runs easy enough to get into as long as I told the lead it wasn't my main account. Sometimes they wanted to check I had okay equipment or asked what I'd cleared on my main account, but that was generally it.

This doesn’t happen every time with every group, but we all know it does happen. And I bet even you have seen it before—a leader kicking someone out for having low CP. No?

Ezhh wrote: »

As for moving from displaying CP to completion or equip collection info - wouldn't this be the same problem with a different number? I might never have done x trial or dungeon on my alt account but have done the trifecta on my main account multiple times. I'd be in the same situation as with CP.

You're right; maybe this isn’t the best option. I don’t know what the perfect solution is, but I do know that something needs to change. Gatekeep someone just because of low CP have to stop.

abkam · February 23

Amottica wrote: »

It is common in games like this to be able to see a character's level, and CP is part of a character's level even though it is account-wide.

As such, it would not make sense to hide it.

The better solution is to avoid playing with random players, find a guild that meets the player's needs, and run with them. This would lead to running with better and more consistent groups, improving the gaming experience overall and not preventing running solo when one wants to.

Win/Win

It’s not a win-win. It’s an even bigger failure! Why?

Because if you do that, guilds will ask you to join Discord. Then they’ll ask for your parse, your Pithka screenshot, and maybe even your logs. After that, you’ll get a tag to join groups. And if you’re good enough, you’ll get to run trials with them. If not, you’ll be stuck running normal ones. This should happen when guilds are doing HM or trifecta runs.
Come on, you know I’m right! Every guild will ask for parses in Discord, and then they’ll decide whether to gatekeep you or not.
They will gatekeep you even if it’s just a vet run. And they don’t actually care about your CP—they care about your DPS.
If your account is CP 400 but you pull 70k DPS, and they have someone with 91k DPS, they’ll still gatekeep you just because of your low CP… unless there’s no one else available.
You know this is true.

I’m talking about pugs—just logging in, playing the game, and having some fun. That’s it. Playing the game with pugs!

Desiato · February 23

Because it's relevant information for other players to consider.

You may not prefer how they use that info, but that doesn't mean they would prefer not to have it.

The reality is that most low CP players on their first accounts have traits that some experienced players may prefer to avoid.

Of course it doesn't apply to everyone, and any low cp player may potentially be an elite player on an alt account, but that is likely to be an outlying scenario.

I think we should keep the information public and let people make informed choices based on their preferences.

Ezhh · February 23

abkam wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

Out of curiosity, in addition to linking an achievement, do you say it's your alt account to explain the low CP? I did that on my own alt account and had zero issue being accepted for runs. I was able to join a carry group to raise a little gold and a trifecta team at 400CP when I switched server for a bit, and found random runs easy enough to get into as long as I told the lead it wasn't my main account. Sometimes they wanted to check I had okay equipment or asked what I'd cleared on my main account, but that was generally it.

This doesn’t happen every time with every group, but we all know it does happen. And I bet even you have seen it before—a leader kicking someone out for having low CP. No?

I'm not claiming it doesn't happen, but I honestly can't remember seeing it directly unless it was also performance based in content where we needed a certain level of ability to clear.

But keep in mind, in a dungeon I'm the one who usually won't okay random vote kicks without seeing a clear reason for them (CP isn't one to me, other than maybe under 160 in a harder vet DLC), and I will generally always queue with one other person so can't be vote kicked (not that it tends to come up). For trials I usually only "pug" via Discord servers where it's easier to talk to people and sort out any concerns in advanced. The few recent-ish times I joined in game trial pugs there were some low CP people present (500-700ish) and no one said a word.

So can it happen? Sure. But it feels like it can be worked around.

Mik195 · February 23

CP just says how much you play and doesn't have anything to do with capabilities. I'm CP sonething close to 2500 and consider it a good day when I can roll dodge rather than jump. DPS when I test it is nearly always less than 20k.

I don't group for obvious reasons, but if you are screening for skill, CP won't always work.

Amottica · February 24

abkam wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

It is common in games like this to be able to see a character's level, and CP is part of a character's level even though it is account-wide.

As such, it would not make sense to hide it.

The better solution is to avoid playing with random players, find a guild that meets the player's needs, and run with them. This would lead to running with better and more consistent groups, improving the gaming experience overall and not preventing running solo when one wants to.

Win/Win

It’s not a win-win. It’s an even bigger failure! Why?

Because if you do that, guilds will ask you to join Discord. Then they’ll ask for your parse, your Pithka screenshot, and maybe even your logs. After that, you’ll get a tag to join groups. And if you’re good enough, you’ll get to run trials with them. If not, you’ll be stuck running normal ones. This should happen when guilds are doing HM or trifecta runs.
Come on, you know I’m right! Every guild will ask for parses in Discord, and then they’ll decide whether to gatekeep you or not.
They will gatekeep you even if it’s just a vet run. And they don’t actually care about your CP—they care about your DPS.
If your account is CP 400 but you pull 70k DPS, and they have someone with 91k DPS, they’ll still gatekeep you just because of your low CP… unless there’s no one else available.
You know this is true.

I’m talking about pugs—just logging in, playing the game, and having some fun. That’s it. Playing the game with pugs!

Not at all. It is a win/win when adhering to the suggestion I made. Create restrictions, and it becomes something else.

As I noted, find a guild that meets the player's needs. I guess I needed to add that the needs must be realistic. Not all guilds require using Discord, submitting a parse, or providing anything other than yourself. Many casual guilds out there do not have those requirements, but they still provide a better-than-average GF experience. I know this for a fact. I used to lead raids in one of them.

Of course, a player serious about raiding, especially the more challenging raiding, will be willing to submit to such information and participate in voice communications. They will do so because they realize that a group will perform better if a degree of competence is required, and hearing instructions improves group play.

However, that is not what this thread is discussing. Many casual guilds have a lot of fun, and that would be great for a low-bbie account like the one being discussed here. It does take kissing a few frogs to find the right one, but it is very well worth the effort and more likely to happen than hiding CP levels.

Good luck with your search if you choose to take on such a task.