Rallying Cry Needs a Nerf – It’s Too Strong and Outclasses Other Sets

Iriidius

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Imagine going after the one set that scales better with less people and promotes solo/smaller scale pvp.

nice try.

10 group members getting 10*165wpn dmg and 903 crit resi is still 5.5 times as much as one player getting the full 300 wpn dmg and 1650 crit resisten.

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Does Rallying Cry stack with itself? In other words, if two people in a group are running Rallying Cry, can one person get buffs from both at the same time?

If so, it definitely needs a nerf (probably just to not stack with itself). If not (which is how I always assumed it worked), it really doesn't seem all that overpowered. Assuming it doesn't stack with itself, the scaling and non-stacking pretty quickly make it really only worth using if you're playing solo or you've coordinated with your team to make sure only 1-2 people are wearing it. Sure, the first instance in a group is top-tier (mostly because it buffs the whole group), but subsequent instances are pretty quickly wasted.

Rallyng cry stacks not with itself. Otherwise at least pugs could stack (5) piece like ballgroups with most players wearing rallyng cry anyway. Making setbuff stacking available to more players excluding less but also make it even worse for players not doing it.

Same Buffset not stacking makes sure only regular groups can stack different buffsets as you have to communicate to distribute and then farm the sets first which is too mucheffort for irregulars.

It is still overpowered in group as the scaling is not making the sum of stats given to all group member stop increaing until the 11th player of a group and dimish until the 12th (and last) player of group.

Iriidius

Rallyng cry is Julianos+Impregable_5boni with both 5piece as onebarable multitarget procs.

xylena_lazarow

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

If one set is overtuned

It's not overtuned. Neither effect is strong on its own, in fact Hundings and Impreg are BAD sets on their own. Nobody wins anything just because they wore Rallying Cry, and the 2-4pc bonuses are mid. It dominates the meta because it's the best available generic balanced stat set, and the nature of stat sets is that there's no reason to ever choose weaker numbers, unless you benefit from specific class synergies like Alfiq on MagSorc, or Draugrkin on pressure DK.

Renato90085

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Does Rallying Cry stack with itself? In other words, if two people in a group are running Rallying Cry, can one person get buffs from both at the same time?

If so, it definitely needs a nerf (probably just to not stack with itself). If not (which is how I always assumed it worked), it really doesn't seem all that overpowered. Assuming it doesn't stack with itself, the scaling and non-stacking pretty quickly make it really only worth using if you're playing solo or you've coordinated with your team to make sure only 1-2 people are wearing it. Sure, the first instance in a group is top-tier (mostly because it buffs the whole group), but subsequent instances are pretty quickly wasted.

No,if your group run 2 rallying cry,2nd only refreshes the duration,like all icon buff proc

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

React wrote: »

The only change that should be made to this set, is that the scaling should be much more harsh with group size than it is now. The concept of stat dense sets to benefit people who are likely going to be at a numbers disadvantage is fine, imo. The stat density of this set is nowhere near as strong as the utility, stats, and dynamics that simply having more players in your group brings.

Have it remove 1/3rd of the stats per additional player in the group.

Solo = 1650 crit resist, 300 WD
Duo = 1100 crit resist, 200 WD
Trio = 550 crit resist, 100 WD
4+ = 0 stats

This but it should affect any player you heal so that if you're running in a zerg it wont be as effective either.

Vaqual

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

If one set is overtuned

It's not overtuned. Neither effect is strong on its own, in fact Hundings and Impreg are BAD sets on their own. Nobody wins anything just because they wore Rallying Cry, and the 2-4pc bonuses are mid. It dominates the meta because it's the best available generic balanced stat set, and the nature of stat sets is that there's no reason to ever choose weaker numbers, unless you benefit from specific class synergies like Alfiq on MagSorc, or Draugrkin on pressure DK.

What matters here is by what margin Rallying Cry is better than those other stat sets. It is the mix between backbarability, forgiving uptime, the trivial proc condition and total stat yield that makes it a prime choice.
And I find that is the very thing that is the root cause of most debates here: Whenever something offers too much generic power the game feels unbalanced and less fun, and real choice is virtually removed from competitive play. We have/had issues with too easy passive scaling on heals from WD/SD or HP (old Intensive Mender, current Polar) exacerbated by free tankiness (CP+old Undeath), we had proc sets that do it all (old Crimson Twilight), we have had flat bonuses that outperform stat builds in absurd ratios (previous Masters DW).
The result is mostly a portion of the playerbase identifying the issue and an equivalent portion arguing in defense of the subject. My fun is not more valueable than yours, and your fun is not more valuable than mine, I think we can agree on that. You may find that the game is in a reasonable or even good state with the current version of Rallying Cry, while I wonder what neccessitates a scenario where one stat based set has to outperform dozens of others in multiple aspects. With this perspective it doesn't matter so much how it can hold up against completely different build concepts, like for example a meta proc set.
I can agree that this is maybe not the most pressing issue, but nonetheless I am not happy with it.

WaywardArgonian

Rallying Cry is a shining example of a well-crafted, useful though not obligatory PVP set.

YandereGirlfriend

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Buff Malacath back to 25% then the Crit Resist isn't so good

Heck yeah!

YandereGirlfriend

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

I think that problem is that we need more backbar 5-piece options. rallying have two five-pece bonuses with the luxury of 100% uptime. Going by that logic:

Clever alch 5 piece bonus to 900 wsd up from 600 wsd, since its uptime is 33%, and single 5-piece is 300 wsd.
Essence thief needs 15 sec uptime with 10 sec cooldown, and also replenish magica as well on proc, more of a QoL adjusment, since this set is already in nice spot. 1-4 bonuses could be changed to wsd and crit as well.
Seventh legion needs 3410 armor instead of 341 health recovery on 5-piece, since ZoS killed health recovery in PvP, and armor is much more desired stat.

Those 3 would be a great start, Im sure there is much more sets that could be brought to the sandart.

Yes, more of this.

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

In fact, I was looking at Seventh Legion the other day and was like, "This is SO close to being a good set but so much of its power budget is wasted on these dogwater Health Regen buffs that are relics from a bygone era."

I would toss in Armor Master as another set that COULD be a fantastic defensive back-bar option if the proc lasted longer (at least 20 seconds but let's dream big and go for 30) or had a more forgiving proc condition (e.g. any Armor-increasing ability, like the old Seventh Legion used to have).

Nathanbreakfast

Compared to all of the things wrong with pvp, asking for a Rallying Cry nerf is insane.

xylena_lazarow

Vaqual wrote: »

What matters here is by what margin Rallying Cry is better than those other stat sets.

Okay so nerf Rallying Cry down to the level of Hundings and Impreg. Great, now nobody uses any of those, might as well decon RC for some gold mats, and the meta is now 99% back bar Wretched Vitality instead. Nerf that too?

You need decent generic sets so classes can support multiple playstyles and archetypes. Alfiq or Draugrkin are cool unique stat sets but they're only for specialized playstyles on specialized builds, you don't want to pigeonhole the classes (at that point you might as well scrap the build system and start over like they're doing with Vengeance).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

Exactly. We still have good defensive back bars like Daedric Trickery, we need to add more offense/defense balanced sets, like a modern version of 7th Legion like you mentioned would be pretty cool.

forum_gpt

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The sets being compared here are false equivalences. Impreg is a group set, it is designed for group play, RC is a solo set designed for solo (or duo/trio) play. As for groups using RC, maybe ZOS should be looking at why groups are able to stack so many buffs up using so few sets that they end up having room to add RC to their group.

Impregnable is not a group set—it’s a purely selfish defensive set that only benefits the wearer. It has no group utility, no synergy, and no scaling mechanics, so calling it a ‘group set’ is just incorrect. Meanwhile, Rallying Cry is a group set by design, as it explicitly applies buffs to multiple allies.

Vaqual

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

What matters here is by what margin Rallying Cry is better than those other stat sets.

Okay so nerf Rallying Cry down to the level of Hundings and Impreg. Great, now nobody uses any of those, might as well decon RC for some gold mats, and the meta is now 99% back bar Wretched Vitality instead. Nerf that too?

You need decent generic sets so classes can support multiple playstyles and archetypes. Alfiq or Draugrkin are cool unique stat sets but they're only for specialized playstyles on specialized builds, you don't want to pigeonhole the classes (at that point you might as well scrap the build system and start over like they're doing with Vengeance).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

Exactly. We still have good defensive back bars like Daedric Trickery, we need to add more offense/defense balanced sets, like a modern version of 7th Legion like you mentioned would be pretty cool.

This is really drastic argumentation. How many % can you shave off the stats until Rallying Cry is no longer a choice for you? Why not lower the stats by a reasonable margin, so that it doesn't blatantly outperform 2 specialized sets, by 20% on each stat for example, and remove the 5 second grace time on the duration. It will still be miles better than Hundings or Impregnable, but at least not outperform them on their primary purpose.

The argument that one is always going to be the best just doesn't matter really, if the ratio between #1 and the stuff that comes after is reasonable.

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

I think that problem is that we need more backbar 5-piece options. rallying have two five-pece bonuses with the luxury of 100% uptime. Going by that logic:

Clever alch 5 piece bonus to 900 wsd up from 600 wsd, since its uptime is 33%, and single 5-piece is 300 wsd.
Essence thief needs 15 sec uptime with 10 sec cooldown, and also replenish magica as well on proc, more of a QoL adjusment, since this set is already in nice spot. 1-4 bonuses could be changed to wsd and crit as well.
Seventh legion needs 3410 armor instead of 341 health recovery on 5-piece, since ZoS killed health recovery in PvP, and armor is much more desired stat.

Those 3 would be a great start, Im sure there is much more sets that could be brought to the sandart.

Yes, more of this.

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

In fact, I was looking at Seventh Legion the other day and was like, "This is SO close to being a good set but so much of its power budget is wasted on these dogwater Health Regen buffs that are relics from a bygone era."

I would toss in Armor Master as another set that COULD be a fantastic defensive back-bar option if the proc lasted longer (at least 20 seconds but let's dream big and go for 30) or had a more forgiving proc condition (e.g. any Armor-increasing ability, like the old Seventh Legion used to have).

On Armor Master doesn't the Minor Toughness only work on the bar with the Armor Skill? It should proc with the Armor.

7th Legion also had the disastorous condition of not refreshing until the proc was expired, years ago when it took this present form, might be fixed by now.

Urzigurumash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

What matters here is by what margin Rallying Cry is better than those other stat sets.

Okay so nerf Rallying Cry down to the level of Hundings and Impreg. Great, now nobody uses any of those, might as well decon RC for some gold mats, and the meta is now 99% back bar Wretched Vitality instead. Nerf that too?

You need decent generic sets so classes can support multiple playstyles and archetypes. Alfiq or Draugrkin are cool unique stat sets but they're only for specialized playstyles on specialized builds, you don't want to pigeonhole the classes (at that point you might as well scrap the build system and start over like they're doing with Vengeance).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

Exactly. We still have good defensive back bars like Daedric Trickery, we need to add more offense/defense balanced sets, like a modern version of 7th Legion like you mentioned would be pretty cool.

Most explicit example since you said Daedric - Kynmarcher's Cruelty should proc off all damage like Daedric so we can backbar it and proc it off DoTs.

Markytous

Back to reality - Rallying Cry is so stat-dense that it has destroyed build theorycrafting to levels where double-barred sets are completely useless. It's your Hundings/Julianos. It's your Impregnable/Pariah. It's them at the same time. Welcome to power-creep where you can now wear an equivalent to 3 5pc Sets and a Monster Set and a Mythic all together, still able to drop in Trainee Heavy Reinforced Cuirass. There is no alternative to what this set provides. For example, in Battlegrounds you can give your entire group a buffer of Critical Resistance and damage. Can't do that with Hundings or Impregnable!

Because Rallying Cry has powercrept stat density in 5pc back-bar viable sets, I suggest that EVERY SINGLE SET in the entire game get a buff to be equivalent to double their current yield in value or gut Rallying Cry by 50% in both Power and Critical Resistance. Yes. 165 Weapon/Spell Power and 850 Critical Resistance with the same reduction penalties per person (Implying that the set becomes useless at 9+ group members). This set has destroyed build theorycrafting more than any bombers, ballgroups or blocktanks could ever do.

Kahnak

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I think it's just that the other sets are terrible...

...and if everything else is terrible then follow the logic train.... rallying cry is overpowered.

Sorry, that's not how logic works.

KiltMaster

I don't think the answer to everything should be nerfs. Why don't we buff other sets to make them more useful?

spartaxoxo

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I think it's just that the other sets are terrible...

...and if everything else is terrible then follow the logic train.... rallying cry is overpowered.

It's not that most of them are terrible because of Rallying. Many of them are outdated and not good as a general matter even without comparing them to that set. Newer sets fit the newer content standards

Markytous

I just realized that Rallying Cry is basically Ancient Dragonguard if it let you have both the damage and armor at all times at the 5pc bonus regardless of HP. Thats funny.

BXR_Lonestar

The set is at its strongest when you have a very small number of players in your group, and it gets weaker the more group members you have, whereas Impreg will stay the same regardless of players in your group, so I don't think this is a problem at all. You also have 100% uptime on Impreg vs. Rally Cry will have some downtime unless you are well-versed in bar swapping or playing as a healer. So these are the kinds of things you need to take into effect when you theorycraft your build.

And honestly, I don't think Impreg is not used because Rally Cry is so strong - I think it isn't used because it has no synergy in group play and there are other good options outside of Impreg. A set that many people overlook is Critical Reposte, which provides crit resist, minor enervation and minor uncertainty, meaning you not only get extra crit resist, but you reduce your opponent's crit chance and crit damage for a time - not just against you, but against any other targets. I've been using this set to great effect on some of my troll builds.

Varana

Vaqual wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

What matters here is by what margin Rallying Cry is better than those other stat sets.

Okay so nerf Rallying Cry down to the level of Hundings and Impreg. Great, now nobody uses any of those, might as well decon RC for some gold mats, and the meta is now 99% back bar Wretched Vitality instead. Nerf that too?

You need decent generic sets so classes can support multiple playstyles and archetypes. Alfiq or Draugrkin are cool unique stat sets but they're only for specialized playstyles on specialized builds, you don't want to pigeonhole the classes (at that point you might as well scrap the build system and start over like they're doing with Vengeance).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

More competitively balanced back-bar sets are what the game needs right now not nerfing everything down to the level of bland oatmeal as some here seem to desire.

Exactly. We still have good defensive back bars like Daedric Trickery, we need to add more offense/defense balanced sets, like a modern version of 7th Legion like you mentioned would be pretty cool.

This is really drastic argumentation. How many % can you shave off the stats until Rallying Cry is no longer a choice for you? Why not lower the stats by a reasonable margin, so that it doesn't blatantly outperform 2 specialized sets, by 20% on each stat for example, and remove the 5 second grace time on the duration. It will still be miles better than Hundings or Impregnable, but at least not outperform them on their primary purpose.

The argument that one is always going to be the best just doesn't matter really, if the ratio between #1 and the stuff that comes after is reasonable.

If we have learned one thing over the last decade, then it's that ZOS doesn't do "reasonable" and "shaving off".
When they change Rallying Cry, they will nerf it into Oblivion.
Which I suppose is the entire purpose of this thread.

---

Usually, these threads go like "I was killed by X, nerf X!"

So I just have to assume that OP was killed by Rallying Cry, which is an impressive achievement.

Deimus

Nah hard disagree Rallying Cry is fine the set that really needs a nerf in PvP is Rush of Agony if there is any set ZOS needs to allocate manhours to balancing it's RoA. Rallying Cry looks overpowered, because the set you're comparing them to is just bad after being subjected to EIGHT years of set inflation.

What many players have said before and I agree with is instead of adding new sets they should be going back and making older sets competitive. They're doing a Julianos theme for this year with events so perfect time to revamp the classic once beloved Law of Julianos set to make it competitive in today's environment.

Markytous

Why don't people understand that the reason why Rallying Cry is an issue is because it invalidates almost all the other sets in PVP? It has nothing to do with "Oh its killing people". Also it has 100% uptime. How can someone say Impregnable Armor has any advantage? You can make sure a heal crit happens in the 5 second window to refresh Rallying Cry easily. I have 11 characters and all of them can use this set to suddenly become top 5% performing in PVP. It kills the build diversity dead. I would use Impregnable Armor if it was actually valuable and even consider stacking it with Rallying Cry however now that Farstrider exists Critical Resistance values just seem amorphous. Has anybody actually tested Farstriding a Farstrider who Farstrided a Rallying Cry Impregnable wearer? Does the Critical Resistance just go infinitely upwards in a chain to all of these players? Critical Riposte doesn't give you a Hundings/Julianos 5pc... but something tells me it should. Blunted Blades is almost good - it's like a Rallying Cry but deformed.

Joy_Division

As long as they aren;t wearing Rush of Agony, I don't care at this point.

Markytous

Joy_Division wrote: »

As long as they aren;t wearing Rush of Agony, I don't care at this point.

I can agree with this - Rallying Cry or Wretched Vitality or any of the powercrept sets whatever can't even begin to compare to the gamebreaking Rush of Agony. Thats in the league of "hotfix patch disabling RoA until a solution is made" tier.

Solariken

It is indeed too strong, it's weird to see so many people rushing in to defend it. It's literally the equivalent of two 5-piece sets lol.

Markytous

Solariken wrote: »

It is indeed too strong, it's weird to see so many people rushing in to defend it. It's literally the equivalent of two 5-piece sets lol.

They're invested in the short-term state of ESO PVP to the point where the health/big picture of the game as a whole isn't a concern to them. Essentially, wearing "the best gear" makes them feel good. Lets face it. This community "Whats the best build" culture has kneecapped the MMORPG and at large many role-playing games in the character building department - people are more concerned with using or watching videos pointing them towards the best setups without finding out for themselves what is good or what fits their playstyle. People aren't interested in finding their own playstyles in ESO as much as they want to wear "the best" set(s) and start "facerolling" so to speak. This is caused in part by both the community and the direction of development making an arms race of gear, selling expansions for stat denser sets and mythic items. People are defending Rallying Cry because are defending their egos. They consciously realize that Rallying Cry is holding them up in PVP more than vast knowledge of combat mechanics does. Its more satisfying to them to feel "at the top" than to form something uniquely awesome utilizing the vast set collection stickerbook mechanic to toolbox a viable and clever build. Its a culture that can be observed in E-sports tier meta analysis and the illusion-of-choice that games like these create. Rallying Cry is the best PVP set. Its defenders are merely saying "So what if its the best? Get good.".