U45 & New player experience refinement/retention

Mascen

When I heard that starting in 2025 there would be greater refinement of the vanilla zones and hopefully PVP I was greatly delighted. Most of the original alliance zones desperately needed a graphic overhaul but with that refinement I also think the new player experience needs to be taken into account given it has changed so much depending on when you started your first character. What was once a straightforward experience busting out of Coldharbour in 2014 isnt so simple anymore and for those of us who've tried to bring a friend into ESO, many have tried the game but didnt stick with it. So I think we need to ask ourselves a few simple questions:

1. What is it about ESO that made us stick with it?
2. Where are the points in the new player experience when they tend to drop off?
3. How can the root points in question #2 be fixed/adressed?

I feel that once the vanilla game experience is polished enough, ZOS can afford to go on a marketing blitz to draw in new players but till then, we as the community need to help them smooth things out to a shine.

Soarora

1) New lore that fleshes out the world.
2) Story order is really confusing, and so is the basics of making a build.
3) An in-game quest guide that suggests quest order (you can still go in any order, but it’ll push you towards the other that makes the most sense by warning you before you do a quest in the wrong order, and shows a menu where you can pick up quests that point you to the next quest giver) and advanced combat tutorials + new and improved build suggestion tool.

SwimsWithMemes

1. Lore, dungeons, trials, AvA.
2. Feel of combat (too "floaty" and no difficulty for a very long time, no real sense of progression, too many skill points required early); monetisation model of ESO+ dungeons and craft bag; maintenance duration; some things being character wide (mount levels, skill points, companion quests)
3. Can't really, devs have stuck by the systems.
3 in more detail:
A. The acceptance of weaving is a real turn off for some people interested in going from low tier to high tier combat.
B. The limited amount of skills that altogether don't feel very impactful is concerning too. You often have entire skill lines with no relevant skills for a particular character, or things like Pets take 2 slots(!). It would probably break the game but 1 or 2 more skills per bar that aren't buffs or DoTs (i.e. more interesting/situational spammables) could feel better. (Make more weapon styles and usable skills, too!)
C. Make more things account wide: Maybe Skyshards could be account wide so you could be encouraged to explore with different characters and all your characters would get more skill points simultaneously. Some skill lines can surely be account wide (Soul Magic, Excavation, Scrying). Nothing more frustrating than getting a yellow quality lead and then realizing I've only done scrying on one character so I would have to level to 7 again just to see what I found, or log out and come back later. I'm glad leads are account wide, however. Mount speed too, while we're here.
D. The homogenized level scaling means you don't feel progression between content i.e. dungeons. Vaults of Madness is a Daedric prison! It's about as hard as a sewer or a cave with Goblins.
E. While Normal difficulty is consistently easy, Veteran difficulty is a crapshoot. Veteran Falkreath Hold compared to like, Scalecaller or Maarselok or Scriveners are completely different games. The top 10 or 15 hardest vets should have a different classification so people don't queue into them by accident. Give them a separate undaunted NPC too.


I like Soarora's suggestion for an in-game content order. I would suggest that it be a setting you are prompted when you leave Coldharbour: "Do you want this Vestige to experience the game in the order the Elder Scrolls foretold?" And then it blocks out all the NPCs who give quests before you would logically expect them. Make advanced options for a filter too, so you can turn off some content for each character. I.e. no dailies, no X chapter etc. You could really have unique quest experiences with certain characters then.

Mascen

Soarora wrote: »

1) New lore that fleshes out the world.
2) Story order is really confusing, and so is the basics of making a build.
3) An in-game quest guide that suggests quest order (you can still go in any order, but it’ll push you towards the other that makes the most sense by warning you before you do a quest in the wrong order, and shows a menu where you can pick up quests that point you to the next quest giver) and advanced combat tutorials + new and improved build suggestion tool.

I agree with alot of that, IME when i brought friends into ESO they usually were overwhelmed and didnt know where to go. I think there needs to be a stronger incentive to follow the original alliance questlines and perhaps revamp the rewards for the zone questlines could do that. One of the other issues I brought up last year that overlaps with increasing the overland diffuculty would be to overhaul all those overland zones that most people dont even bat an eyelid over like the Shalk set or the Storm knight set. It would also blend in well with the PVP overhaul

Taril

It's hard to really know about point 2 unless:

1) You're a new player who left (Of course, that would mean you're not here)

2) You have analytics in regards to when people stop actively playing (I.e. You're a ZoS employee)

At best we can infer based on anecdotal evidence or surmise from our own personal pain points... But it's hard to know for sure exactly where different people drop off and why.

In regards to some theories:

- Questing routes are a mess. ZoS are aware of this and have mentioned as such in their letter and their recent actions. The refocus back to Coldharbour start was the initial move (As it not only plops players directly into their races starter zone, it makes those starter zones make sense).

They mentioned looking into providing a more curated experience for newer players to boot. Which should mean less Prologue quests being thrown at them, less DLC zones having active Wayshrines from simply having ESO+ and more focus on going through an alliance's zones. Possibly also reintroducing the level gating on the Main Story quests so that they occur periodically throughout a leveling journey rather than you get them all immediately at level 3 by wandering near a town a few dozen times.

- Gearing/Building a character is not intuitive There's not a whole lot that can really be done about this. Improving some existing sets (Especially some Base Game ones... Most of the actually usable sets are from DLC dungeons) can help bridge the gap of gear. As would expanding Transmuting/Reconstructing to be available in base game (So newer players can acquire gear more easily)

Besides that there could be some sort of newb focused Arenas to help bridge the gap between Normal and Vet content as well as to build confidence in playing a role.

Something like a starter Arena could let new players learn about the roles. Learning how tanking works (With mentioning that aggro is based around using Taunt skills), how healing works (Especially with the... Less than optimal... Ally targeting the game has) and how to play a DPS. While providing overall stat guides for the roles (Max Health and Armor for Tanks, W/S Damage and Healing Increases for Healers, W/S Damage and Crit for DPS)

Meanwhile the more advanced Arenas can put them into Vet level difficulty scenarios testing their ability to perform the roles. I.e. Tanks have to keep aggro of some enemies/bosses and not die. Healers have to keep some NPC's alive. DPS have to not stand in Red and do mechanics while having a DPS check for the boss. This would be able to put their skills and build to the test. If possible, failing at these should provide some feedback about your performance (Like maybe your armor is too low as a Tank, your DPS was good but your mechanics need work etc)

- Travelling the world is tedious and unclear. This is another point that ZoS has indicated they're doing something about. They mentioned that they will be increasing the base mount speed with U45 which will provide newer players a better experience.

Of course, they could do a little more such as removing the Major Gallop from Continuous Attacks and making that baseline too (Yes, while it's very simple to get. Not every new player will know that they can simply enter Cyro at level 10, talk to a few people while safely inside their alliance base and get enough ranks to access Continuous Attacks. Also, not having it on CA would also improve the worth of the Adept Rider set) and of course, the oft requested "Make Mount Training Not Ultra-Mega-Super-Garbage"

In addition, they could do with highlighting the Boats and Caravans that are found in cities. It seems like not a lot of people know that these exist to take them between zones easily (I know I certainly didn't for a while). Especially so when there's like the one dude who takes you to the Alliance zones surrounded by like 15 different "Take me to a specific DLC" people (While we're at it... Bring back the caravan to Craglorn. It's been replaced by a caravan to West Weald meaning that getting to Craglorn requires a trek through West Weald or Bankorai)

- Combat and its ugliness. Yes, this would be directed towards LA weaving. The non-intuitive mechanic that is necessary for optimal play. There are also other aspects too.

One of the main issues is that all the QoL features are Mythics. Meaning not only does someone need to have Excavation from DLC, but they need to obtain all the leads (From other DLC) and then it's a level 50 CP 160 item.

A new player who might have issues with the combat has to get very far before they can access the items that exist to facilitate simpler gameplay (Oakensoul/Velothi)

To mention nothing about how aside from a random loading screen tip, nothing in the game directs a player to LA weaving (And as mentioned, it is non-intuitive). Of course, an ideal world would be to finally remove LA weaving and the awkward animation cancelling it creates (They mentioned wanting to work on making combat animations better... But so long as the animation cancelling of LA weaving persists animations will always look like garbage)

TaSheen

I can't really address your points @Mascen. When I started playing 7 years ago, I just looked up stuff online (before actually even making characters), and did my usual - which is, make characters I like looking at, with backstories to fit their personalities, and then just explored, did quests as I ran across them and if they fit the character I was playing when it came to personality/backstory....

I'm a freeform player. I don't ever follow any given path. It took me 2 or maybe 3 years to do the game MQ on my first account....

I can't really address where new players get lost. I never got lost as a new ESO player - but that's because I wasn't looking for ..... "found"..... I guess.

What made me stick with it for 7 years: it's a fun, evolving, vibrant world.

Mascen

Taril wrote: »

It's hard to really know about point 2 unless:

1) You're a new player who left (Of course, that would mean you're not here)

2) You have analytics in regards to when people stop actively playing (I.e. You're a ZoS employee)

At best we can infer based on anecdotal evidence or surmise from our own personal pain points... But it's hard to know for sure exactly where different people drop off and why.

In regards to some theories:

- Questing routes are a mess. ZoS are aware of this and have mentioned as such in their letter and their recent actions. The refocus back to Coldharbour start was the initial move (As it not only plops players directly into their races starter zone, it makes those starter zones make sense).

They mentioned looking into providing a more curated experience for newer players to boot. Which should mean less Prologue quests being thrown at them, less DLC zones having active Wayshrines from simply having ESO+ and more focus on going through an alliance's zones. Possibly also reintroducing the level gating on the Main Story quests so that they occur periodically throughout a leveling journey rather than you get them all immediately at level 3 by wandering near a town a few dozen times.

- Gearing/Building a character is not intuitive There's not a whole lot that can really be done about this. Improving some existing sets (Especially some Base Game ones... Most of the actually usable sets are from DLC dungeons) can help bridge the gap of gear. As would expanding Transmuting/Reconstructing to be available in base game (So newer players can acquire gear more easily)

Besides that there could be some sort of newb focused Arenas to help bridge the gap between Normal and Vet content as well as to build confidence in playing a role.

Something like a starter Arena could let new players learn about the roles. Learning how tanking works (With mentioning that aggro is based around using Taunt skills), how healing works (Especially with the... Less than optimal... Ally targeting the game has) and how to play a DPS. While providing overall stat guides for the roles (Max Health and Armor for Tanks, W/S Damage and Healing Increases for Healers, W/S Damage and Crit for DPS)

Meanwhile the more advanced Arenas can put them into Vet level difficulty scenarios testing their ability to perform the roles. I.e. Tanks have to keep aggro of some enemies/bosses and not die. Healers have to keep some NPC's alive. DPS have to not stand in Red and do mechanics while having a DPS check for the boss. This would be able to put their skills and build to the test. If possible, failing at these should provide some feedback about your performance (Like maybe your armor is too low as a Tank, your DPS was good but your mechanics need work etc)

- Travelling the world is tedious and unclear. This is another point that ZoS has indicated they're doing something about. They mentioned that they will be increasing the base mount speed with U45 which will provide newer players a better experience.

Of course, they could do a little more such as removing the Major Gallop from Continuous Attacks and making that baseline too (Yes, while it's very simple to get. Not every new player will know that they can simply enter Cyro at level 10, talk to a few people while safely inside their alliance base and get enough ranks to access Continuous Attacks. Also, not having it on CA would also improve the worth of the Adept Rider set) and of course, the oft requested "Make Mount Training Not Ultra-Mega-Super-Garbage"

In addition, they could do with highlighting the Boats and Caravans that are found in cities. It seems like not a lot of people know that these exist to take them between zones easily (I know I certainly didn't for a while). Especially so when there's like the one dude who takes you to the Alliance zones surrounded by like 15 different "Take me to a specific DLC" people (While we're at it... Bring back the caravan to Craglorn. It's been replaced by a caravan to West Weald meaning that getting to Craglorn requires a trek through West Weald or Bankorai)

- Combat and its ugliness. Yes, this would be directed towards LA weaving. The non-intuitive mechanic that is necessary for optimal play. There are also other aspects too.

One of the main issues is that all the QoL features are Mythics. Meaning not only does someone need to have Excavation from DLC, but they need to obtain all the leads (From other DLC) and then it's a level 50 CP 160 item.

A new player who might have issues with the combat has to get very far before they can access the items that exist to facilitate simpler gameplay (Oakensoul/Velothi)

To mention nothing about how aside from a random loading screen tip, nothing in the game directs a player to LA weaving (And as mentioned, it is non-intuitive). Of course, an ideal world would be to finally remove LA weaving and the awkward animation cancelling it creates (They mentioned wanting to work on making combat animations better... But so long as the animation cancelling of LA weaving persists animations will always look like garbage)

Well i base my input partially off of my own personal experience trying to bring a friend into the game during the pandemic when we had the free time. I thought he would be into it because he played WoW growing up and loved Skyrim but for whatever reason he didnt vibe with things and somehow wound up going hard on Genshin Impact despite all my efforts to accomodate him.

I understand my experience may be unique but thats why i want to compare notes and opinions with others here; because I realize that new players are becoming more scant and I want to breathe new life into ESO.

Mascen

TaSheen wrote: »

I can't really address your points @Mascen. When I started playing 7 years ago, I just looked up stuff online (before actually even making characters), and did my usual - which is, make characters I like looking at, with backstories to fit their personalities, and then just explored, did quests as I ran across them and if they fit the character I was playing when it came to personality/backstory....

I'm a freeform player. I don't ever follow any given path. It took me 2 or maybe 3 years to do the game MQ on my first account....

I can't really address where new players get lost. I never got lost as a new ESO player - but that's because I wasn't looking for ..... "found"..... I guess.

What made me stick with it for 7 years: it's a fun, evolving, vibrant world.

Well thats the thing because I generally think I'm a freeform player as well but i recognize that were more of a rarity than we think. To use skyrim as an analogy. After getting out of helgen most people tend to go to riverwood, whiterun and follow the main questling instead of free exploring out the gate. As far as drumming up player numbers, I think that needs to be recognized but also accomodate the free form players so its easy enough to go off the rails if they want to.

AScarlato

I stuck around because I started a RP guild, and this game has a really great RP community. Probably the best community for actual lore-based RP (as opposed to more OOC type social RP I saw in FFXIV). The game also has the tools to support it through it's impressive housing system.

I think sprucing up the old zones would help - those early zones by today's standards are pretty ugly, and ESO as a whole is a decade-old MMO that already looks dated and that alone will turn off potential new players. First impressions matter and appearance is part of that.

I think some players fall off because they don't like the floaty combat, but that probably won't change so it is what it is. I had a friend tell me that LA weaving made her fingers hurt so she stopped playing entirely.

Others not really into the early gameplay loop of "Listen to several minutes of dialogue, 1-shot random mobs that pose no threat or challenge at all, then listen to another 5 minutes of dialogue" can also turn off new players since if you are not into questing this game is very boring early on. It is possible some don't even bother getting to group content. Some added challenge wouldn't hurt. I think a mob in the Coldharbour intro will even just fall over and die even if you are AFK, which isn't exactly the most exciting gameplay.

TaSheen

Mascen wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I can't really address your points @Mascen. When I started playing 7 years ago, I just looked up stuff online (before actually even making characters), and did my usual - which is, make characters I like looking at, with backstories to fit their personalities, and then just explored, did quests as I ran across them and if they fit the character I was playing when it came to personality/backstory....

I'm a freeform player. I don't ever follow any given path. It took me 2 or maybe 3 years to do the game MQ on my first account....

I can't really address where new players get lost. I never got lost as a new ESO player - but that's because I wasn't looking for ..... "found"..... I guess.

What made me stick with it for 7 years: it's a fun, evolving, vibrant world.

Well thats the thing because I generally think I'm a freeform player as well but i recognize that were more of a rarity than we think. To use skyrim as an analogy. After getting out of helgen most people tend to go to riverwood, whiterun and follow the main questling instead of free exploring out the gate. As far as drumming up player numbers, I think that needs to be recognized but also accomodate the free form players so its easy enough to go off the rails if they want to.

Agreed! I think the MMO world today doesn't really understand "freeform" - the games and their devs expect players to follow almost a step-by-step rota.... which was never my thing at all.

I do feel like a rarity! But that's okay. I'm old enough and recalcitrant enough to just not care what others think any more....

Kittytravel

1. What is it about ESO that made us stick with it?

I'm just an overall Elder Scrolls fan; so sticking with the game (once One Tamriel released personally) was easy for me. The introduction of the Justice System and Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild is what made it all feel complete to me.

2. Where are the points in the new player experience when they tend to drop off?

I've personally invited 5 people into the game; only 2 of them continued playing after the level 50 point. Here are the pain points from all 5 players that seem to be in complete cohesion.

A There is literally no way to figure out where to go. It's great that the game feels super open ended; but at the same time this is extraordinarily confusing. They all agreed that there should be SOMETHING in the quest journal to 'guide' them through the base-game story letting them know what zones to go to and in what order the 'expansions' should be progressed through to understand the story. Then once they know the game better they can decide to skip content to places they want to be and then come back later. Essentially they all wanted a 'Zone Guide' but for the whole game in order to know what 'Zone Guide' to be using. One that says "Hey your zone order for the Aldmeri Dominion story is Khenarthi's Roost, Auridon, Grahtwood, Greenshade, Malabal Tor and Reaper's March in that order."

B The level system is confusing. They all agreed there should be a way better explanation given to the player about how 'gear' works. One even suggested that gear should explicitly state (CP 0) on it if it doesn't have a champion level, just to get the young player thinking to themselves that this will be a later mechanic rather than being blindsided by it. She was rather confused when she hit level 50 only to be told that she wasn't "actually at max gear level yet" when I made her yet another set of training gear.

C Inventory Game. None of them, not a single one, appreciated the ridiculous level of inventory management they were going through. All of them ended up using addons that auto-junked everything for them because they got tired of the constant stopping for stupid things they had picked up. This drove them absolutely nuts.

D Unclear skills. They all agreed that instead of having a one-time tooltip come up explaining that "Stamina" and "Magicka" skills scale off these stats, that there really should just be a permanent window that shows up next to the "Skills" window that says that information until they turn it off in the settings as a conscious decision. Their reasoning was the 'Morph' portion of the skills is what makes this confusing; why would morphing my stamina skill into a magicka skill suddenly change the original ability? Why would anyone want to level a stamina skill just to change it to magicka? Etc. They felt like it would be easier to understand with a constant reminder that morping it to magicka would change what it scales off.

E Guild Traders. They understand the system, they get what it's for. None of them minded the system once it was explained to them. The big thing they minded was why can't they just find what guild-trader, if any, is selling something and where? They don't want to see the price of it mind you, but they did not like hopping from guild trader to guild trader HOPING to find something and they didn't like that an addon was necessary to search for it.

F Dungeon Queue Times. Why can't we just get a group for normal dungeons? I mean one of us is a healer and it still takes 30 mins!

3. How can the root points in question #2 be fixed/adressed?

A I think they are right about adding a "Zone Progression" list with the current content in the game to understand where to go. Three of the players I invited (and the two that stayed playing so far) love the way it was laid out in The Questing Guide addon. Having things listed by number for them made it easy for them to ask me "Hey why is Aldmeri Dominion, Daggerfall Covenant, Ebonheart Pact, Fighters Guild, and Mages Guild all listed as one?" and for me to explain "Technically they are all fighting different wars and fights at the same time; so it's to show you that it's all happening at the same time as all the others." It made it easier for them to understand the games story and get more into it.

B I'm not sure if adding CP O to armor would be confusing or not honestly; but I can't think of any better way to explain to a new player where the gear cap ends before they reach it.

C I mean... I know this will likely never get changed. And I feel like this is probably the worst pain point of them all, it's so hard to enjoy a game with terrible inventory systems. The only alleviation that I can see for this (that Zenimax might consider reasonable) would be something akin to an ESO+ lite subscription? Maybe for $3.99 a month instead of $14.99 a month you get the craft bag and nothing else?

D I think the 'help' panel being there would be a good way of explaining this to people. Maybe also a constant reminder that "Staves" are for Magicka and "Melee Weapons + Bow" is for Stamina while "Shields" are for tanks. Just things that players not used to a more 'free-form build' MMO would want to be reminded of until they incorporate it into memory.

E This ones rough because I get the pain point. But I think it's something that is dealt with by longevity. Perhaps some sort of NPC that can be added that can give you locations of Guild Traders having an item but not the prices would be helpful here for people not using Addons; it'd certainly be a dream for console players I'm sure as they still have to scrounge around vendor to vendor for things AFAIK.

F Probably introduce some sort of incentive here for older players to just... run normal content again. Yeah it's boring as all get out and we can just solo it but if the game provides a better incentive to spam normal dungeons it only helps the younger player base. I had never really thought of this prior to these newer players but they are kind of right; there should be a greater incentive to get people to run 'normal' content over 'veteran' content simply to help out newer players. I'm not really sure what the reward should be personally; gold wouldn't be a good solve is my insight here.

So that's all the early-game stuff... now let's head into the late game complaints that my two longevity players have pointed out over the years.

1. Dungeon Difficulty. Holy crap is this so frustrating to them to feel like they are just absolutely inept, garbage dogs*** at the game when they run into something like Scalecaller Peak, Bloodroot Forge or Moonhunter Keep and just don't know what's going on even if the fight is explained to them. They think they are so bad at the game and that I am just "trying to make them feel better" when I explain to them that MOST pugs in my experience just suffer on these dungeons when they get rolled randomly. Granted I had warned them that Vet DLC dungeons could scale very quickly but they did Veteran White Gold Tower (something I would consider among the easiest of the DLC dungeons) and thought they'd be okay day 2 when they rolled Bloodroot Forge for the daily. That went over about as well as you'd expect for two newbie CP 200ish and CP 500ish players who weren't expecting to get their lives rocked in a mechanically unforgiving dungeon.

The solution here would honestly be a community curation vote on how "hard" they would rate each veteran dungeon from a PUG perspective, not a premade perspective. Maybe we let the community create tiers of "Vet DLC - Easy" "Vet DLC - Medium" and "Vet DLC - Hard" or some other variant to impress upon new players the risks for queuing up for these specific dungeons during Pledge Days.

2. Locked Classes. This really irked them because it's hard to know you'll really enjoy a class until you see it in practice and then once you fall in love with one you just... kinda really want that one. Granted what didn't really annoy them in this case was that you had to pay for the class; after all expansion locked classes are a pretty regular thing in MMO's. What annoyed them was that they'd have to buy the class and level it up afterwards. They really wanted a way to just... immediately level it to 50 if they already reached a certain point in the game (say for example gear cap).

I think most of us can agree that it feels annoying to play the game for so long, a new class released, and we all have to sit here leveling up a new character in Skyreach, BRP, Spellscar, Dungeon Spamming, or whatever else it is when your main character is CP2000+. You definitely know how to play the game, just let us skip the boring part. It's not really going hurt anyone to let more experienced players skip the level up system.

3. Normal Trial Finder. They thought Trials were going to be a little harder than dungeons but ended up finding that doing a Normal Trial is actually easier than half the DLC vet dungeons.

Makes sense honestly. Just make a system where everyone queue's for the normal trial they want to do, pop the group together instantly and teleport them in their just like the dungeon finder. I am of course well aware of the inconsistencies in ESO's dungeon finder (and the absolute train wreck that has occurred every single Undaunted event since 2018) but here's to hopes that maybe they can improve it and I do think this would help player retention if they can more easily jump into normal trial content just like a normal dungeon.

That's pretty much everything I can think of and recall. There was a lot more I'm sure but some of the things that were griped about were, honestly, just a problem of MMO's in general and I don't think they were exclusive to ESO. The two players that have stayed are actually pretty happy with the idea that they can solo pretty much anything they want. It's kinda made them realize how much they loathe doing content in their other respective MMO's (WoW for one of them and FF14 for the other). They switch back and forth and are always surprised at how much more there is to do in a game that you can play solo for hours on end and still make progress. They also both adore the stickerbook and wish it was in every game. One of them is wild for theorycrafting and pretty much changes their build every 2 weeks and farms sets like crazy, which would be the one who really wanted a 'Normal Trial Finder' after doing so many LFG's for something that takes about as much time to run in a PUG group as a dungeon does. The other one loves the guild system, that they don't have to choose one guild and can join 5 for different interests and not feel pressured to find "The Perfect Guild" for themselves. It's made being social in the game and finding friends and people to play with far easier for them.

allochthons

There is a really weird gold dynamic when you are brand, brand new.

For instance, you get 700ish gold for completing a quest. Carrots cost 150 gold from a grocer. The starting recipes cost 270g or so.

Obviously the solution is help from other players, looting, and guild traders. But a new player doesn't know that. I spent a lot of time trying to steal carrots and repeatedly got caught because I didn't know how to be sneaky beyond crouch (nor did I have access to any of those methods.)

What kept me in the game during this frustration was an experienced player saw me sneaking (skyrim style) around a delve, and asked what I was doing? Then dumped a ton of resources on me and invited me to a guild. I'm nearly CP2800 now, and I'm still friends with that player, and thank them periodically. (I was in the guild as well, up until a few months ago, because it's essentially disbanded).

Even so, I spent an incredible amount of time looting Ilessan Tower until I got a decent amount of food ingredients.

Grizzbeorn

I have stuck with it because it's an appealing, lore-heavy, large open-world game, of the "swords and sorcery" archetype, in which I can follow my own whims (I'm one of the freeform folk), which includes being able to play a lot of it solo.

allochthons

Taril wrote: »

While providing overall stat guides for the roles (Max Health and Armor for Tanks, W/S Damage and Healing Increases for Healers, W/S Damage and Crit for DPS)
<snipped by allo>
DPS have to not stand in Red and do mechanics while having a DPS check for the boss.

I think this post is full of great ideas.
Quick question: what is W/S? Oh! Weapon/Spell damage!

And "standing in red." That setting is buried deep in the options. I would suggest having a (skippable!) part of the tutorial explain how to set your bars the way you like them, how to use Combat Settings in general and explain how to use this setting in particular. And have it default to ON. I am not kidding when I say I've seen CP1000 players who don't know that option exists.

Usually people who have concentrated on questing, and are now just starting dungeons and trials, but when people keep shouting at them "stop standing in stupid" they literally have no idea what that means.

Northwold

People often cite combat feel and being too easy (which I think it absolutely is not for the average new player), and account wide things in these discussions but, I have to say, I think these are broadly irrelevant to new players and reflect the priorities of people who've been playing for years.

Before a player makes multiple characters, before they're powerful enough that combat feels easy, they have to like the game, stay with it, and be able to broadly understand what they're even playing.

My own view when I started the game and dropped it twice with a six month gap in between was that the stories in the game were completely incoherent, and that, without them, the whole experience was like this empty, random mess of locations that weren't tied together. I started with Morrowind after Summerset had been released.

Given that stories could be played out of order it felt like a bugged, alienating game. Major plot elements of a story you hadn't even started yet would be playing out in front of you with no explanation whatever. (My first introduction to Darien was as an utterly repellent, cocksure womanising himbo getting out of bed from bedding some girl -- essentially the polar opposite of how the character had been intended.)

The first time I dropped it was after three days, tops, because I'd picked up some random quest in Morrowind that took me to, I think, Gnisis, which seemed to have a population of zero and all I was doing was a glorified fetch quest. The most interesting thing there was a cat, which I couldn't stroke, and the quest was rubbish.

If the game wanted me to stay, it needed to funnel me in those early stages into something actually interesting. It didn't.

The second time, I found out by people being patronising to me on steam forums when I said didn't understand what I was doing and telling me to "duh, Google it" (not a great start) that there was a main quest and zone stories. But then I managed to break Glenumbra by killing the big bad before I'd even started the zone quest, which then told me that it was desperately important to kill the thing I'd already killed, and to see the Silvernar married before I'd had my first introduction to him. It was a total, unplayable, nonsensical mess. Again, I dropped it after about three days.

I think the biggest change necessary to fix this is what they are already doing -- revive the original tutorial and make clear to new players that the main quest exists and how to find it. The addition of the zone guide will also have helped with playing stories in order and not breaking the base zones' many zone quests.

But beyond this I would think putting real, serious effort into giving structure to the new player experience is fundamental. The main quest is a start. But it's not made clear, for example, what the in-game guilds, eg mages, fighters, are even for (frankly, I still have no idea) beyond getting a skill line. It's not made clear what crafting dailies etc are for. Etc. Etc.

So when you start and ALL of this is thrown in your face in a near continuous stream of random, seemingly meaningless activities, the whole game plays extremely badly. It like you're constantly being told to do X, Y, Z with cryptic, poorly elaborated explanations of why they matter and no context for how they fit into (or not) the main story you're doing / anything else. There is no sense of what is important, what is pointless filler fluff (eg dailies), of priority.

And the instinctive response to that is "well, no thanks, this is incoherent and joyless". At which point as a new player you walk away and go play something more interesting that doesn't mess with your head.

Not sure how you would fix that, but I would think a total overhaul from the base up of the in-game help system, including providing contextual help without a player having to search for it, would be a start. Written in plain English from the point of view of a player who knows absolutely nothing about ESO and about MMOs.

(And I'm not even talking about the jargon that later turns up in the champion points menu and weapons descriptions: how does a new player know what "crowd control" is -- is there a security guard quest they missed? How does a player know that "bracing," "blocking", "successfully blocking" aren't fundamentally different things when the game inconsistently uses different words for them? What is "oblivion damage", what is a "martial attack", what is a "status effect", etc etc. The whole thing is just a gobbledegook word salad.)

One other thing: the game really needs to make clear that it's OK to play solo and what is and is not a multiplayer activity. Even the term "group" is jargon to a new player. "A group of players" means a whole lot more than "group". The game is slathered all over with jargon like this that, perhaps, the devs don't realise is jargon because they've been involved with it for so long.

Kittytravel

allochthons wrote: »

And "standing in red." That setting is buried deep in the options. I would suggest having a (skippable!) part of the tutorial explain how to set your bars the way you like them, how to use Combat Settings in general and explain how to use this setting in particular. And have it default to ON. I am not kidding when I say I've seen CP1000 players who don't know that option exists.

Actually I can agree with this on a different level. I've just done it for so long I never think about it but every single person I bring into the game I tell them to change the 'RED' bad color to 'HOT PINK'. There are sooooooooooo many red effects in this game that I cannot believe the default for "bad thing" is also red. But yes I tell them to switch the color of it and to turn the opacity of it all the way up so that it will always be evident to them that standing there is bad.

This should definitely be a thing, to tell new players to decide their own "bad" and "good" colors. Mine are turquoise for good and hot pink for bad because, with very few exceptions, nothing in the game has these colors. (Prior to skill styles nothing in the game had these colors at all).

Northwold

Kittytravel wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

And "standing in red." That setting is buried deep in the options. I would suggest having a (skippable!) part of the tutorial explain how to set your bars the way you like them, how to use Combat Settings in general and explain how to use this setting in particular. And have it default to ON. I am not kidding when I say I've seen CP1000 players who don't know that option exists.

Actually I can agree with this on a different level. I've just done it for so long I never think about it but every single person I bring into the game I tell them to change the 'RED' bad color to 'HOT PINK'. There are sooooooooooo many red effects in this game that I cannot believe the default for "bad thing" is also red. But yes I tell them to switch the color of it and to turn the opacity of it all the way up so that it will always be evident to them that standing there is bad.

This should definitely be a thing, to tell new players to decide their own "bad" and "good" colors. Mine are turquoise for good and hot pink for bad because, with very few exceptions, nothing in the game has these colors. (Prior to skill styles nothing in the game had these colors at all).

I may be misremembering but I think what @allochthons is describing is even worse than that. I think they're switched off by default. There is no "red" or anything else to stand in unless you turn the option on!

Kittytravel

Northwold wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

And "standing in red." That setting is buried deep in the options. I would suggest having a (skippable!) part of the tutorial explain how to set your bars the way you like them, how to use Combat Settings in general and explain how to use this setting in particular. And have it default to ON. I am not kidding when I say I've seen CP1000 players who don't know that option exists.

Actually I can agree with this on a different level. I've just done it for so long I never think about it but every single person I bring into the game I tell them to change the 'RED' bad color to 'HOT PINK'. There are sooooooooooo many red effects in this game that I cannot believe the default for "bad thing" is also red. But yes I tell them to switch the color of it and to turn the opacity of it all the way up so that it will always be evident to them that standing there is bad.

This should definitely be a thing, to tell new players to decide their own "bad" and "good" colors. Mine are turquoise for good and hot pink for bad because, with very few exceptions, nothing in the game has these colors. (Prior to skill styles nothing in the game had these colors at all).

I may be misremembering but I think what @allochthons is describing is even worse than that. I think they're switched off by default. There is no "red" or anything else to stand in unless you turn the option on!

Man if that's the case that's insane! It's been so many years since I started playing and I normally go through all my game settings before I play that I cannot remember if it's been that way as default. I'm just so used to games not having settings that I like by default. If that's not on it really needs to be a normal feature and people can turn it off if they want.

allochthons

Yes. It is off by default.

Northwold

Kittytravel wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

And "standing in red." That setting is buried deep in the options. I would suggest having a (skippable!) part of the tutorial explain how to set your bars the way you like them, how to use Combat Settings in general and explain how to use this setting in particular. And have it default to ON. I am not kidding when I say I've seen CP1000 players who don't know that option exists.

Actually I can agree with this on a different level. I've just done it for so long I never think about it but every single person I bring into the game I tell them to change the 'RED' bad color to 'HOT PINK'. There are sooooooooooo many red effects in this game that I cannot believe the default for "bad thing" is also red. But yes I tell them to switch the color of it and to turn the opacity of it all the way up so that it will always be evident to them that standing there is bad.

This should definitely be a thing, to tell new players to decide their own "bad" and "good" colors. Mine are turquoise for good and hot pink for bad because, with very few exceptions, nothing in the game has these colors. (Prior to skill styles nothing in the game had these colors at all).

I may be misremembering but I think what @allochthons is describing is even worse than that. I think they're switched off by default. There is no "red" or anything else to stand in unless you turn the option on!

Man if that's the case that's insane! It's been so many years since I started playing and I normally go through all my game settings before I play that I cannot remember if it's been that way as default. I'm just so used to games not having settings that I like by default. If that's not on it really needs to be a normal feature and people can turn it off if they want.

I do remember, probably only a year ago, seeing it in a video and thinking "ooh what's that is it an addon?" (!)

allochthons

I was in a vet Hel Ra Citadel HM run, and a player I'd been playing with for months if not years, and who was over 1000 CP at the time, was dying all the time during Shehai. Someone said "X, please stop standing in red."

X finally got frustrated enough to say "I don't know what you mean. I don't see any red." So we stopped the fight as someone walked them through the menus to that setting. At the same time, they found ability timers and so much more. X dies much less frequently now, and periodically comments on how game changing that was for them.

On a rethink, I've seen this happen twice. Once in a vet Sanity's Edge run as well.

nbksaske

For me, I've stuck around since console release as I enjoyed going through my alliance story, Cadwells silver and gold as well as the chapters/new zones (Orsinium is the best imo) creating new characters and building them up. my main and a few alts have done everything.
Patiently waiting for new content, so right now I login, do my writs, a random, and log off.
Currently enjoying the heck out of KCD2.

Nestor

I stick with the game because I can fire it up and play for 5 minutes or 5 hours as time and real world allow. There are more than enough things to do to keep me from getting bored. Of course, having played all theTES games since the 90's, and cooked from the cookbooks, you could say I am a fan of the series.

What irks me about staring a new character is getting all these quests thrown at me in the first 30 minutes. I know U45 is going to address this. However, please, give me a way to drop the Main Quest. I hate that the Journal goes to the MQ everytime a Quest Stage for say a Zone Story is completed. I do agree, with the above being said, the new player needs a better path to move through the game. There is an excellent thread that guides the player on how to approach the content so it makes the most sense. This could be incorporated into a Zone Guide of sorts. Call it a Game Guide.

As much as the Tutorials irk me as they take me out of the game so to speak, they don't go far enough when they do intrude. I think there should be a Starter Island/Zone where the game explains the day to day mechanics in detail. Maybe a "University" or College setting. Then, in that zone, go to town with Tutorials.

Nestor

allochthons wrote: »

X finally got frustrated enough to say "I don't know what you mean. I don't see any red." So we stopped the fight as someone walked them through the menus to that setting. At the same time, they found ability timers and so much more. X dies much less frequently now, and periodically comments on how game changing that was for them.

As an addition to this. The Danger Color can be changed. For those who have issues seeing certain colors, setting that color to Pepto Bismal Pink really makes the danger zone stand out when all the visuals are going on in a boss fight. I even like it and I have no issues seeing red.

Tandor

A lot of players often talk about the population having begun to drop off after the U35 combat changes, but I think the decline started just before that with the account-wide achievement changes. This is especially true of the endgame players who felt they no longer had any incentive to repeat content by way of showing newer end-gamers through it as they would no longer get the achievements on their alts as they used to do. It also reduced the amount of content all players needed to do including, for example, getting Master Angler on more than one character. Less content to do means less time playing which means fewer concurrent players which then leads to a sense that the game is dying. So please, no more account-wide conversions as that will drive away more existing players than it will gain in new players.

One of the main causes of new players feeling overwhelmed by the content isn't in my view simply the amount of content, it is the new players feeling that they have to do it all straightaway. So often I've seen posts here seeking guidance on where to go or what to do and it begins with something along the lines of "So I got the game last month, I'm CP250 and I don't know what to do next". At that rate of progression it's no wonder they're both overwhelmed and burnt out! The best advice to anyone coming into the game is "Take your time, play the game for the journey and be in no rush to get to the end destination". How many of those who fail to stay long in the game were actually playing the game rather than rushing through it? That said, I do agree that there needs to be a better guide as to the direction to be taken when playing through the game.

Grizzbeorn

Nestor wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

X finally got frustrated enough to say "I don't know what you mean. I don't see any red." So we stopped the fight as someone walked them through the menus to that setting. At the same time, they found ability timers and so much more. X dies much less frequently now, and periodically comments on how game changing that was for them.

As an addition to this. The Danger Color can be changed. For those who have issues seeing certain colors, setting that color to Pepto Bismal Pink really makes the danger zone stand out when all the visuals are going on in a boss fight. I even like it and I have no issues seeing red.

Where is that setting?

Kittytravel

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

X finally got frustrated enough to say "I don't know what you mean. I don't see any red." So we stopped the fight as someone walked them through the menus to that setting. At the same time, they found ability timers and so much more. X dies much less frequently now, and periodically comments on how game changing that was for them.

As an addition to this. The Danger Color can be changed. For those who have issues seeing certain colors, setting that color to Pepto Bismal Pink really makes the danger zone stand out when all the visuals are going on in a boss fight. I even like it and I have no issues seeing red.

Where is that setting?

Here you go, and for anyone else that stumbles onto the thread.

Grizzbeorn

Kittytravel wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

X finally got frustrated enough to say "I don't know what you mean. I don't see any red." So we stopped the fight as someone walked them through the menus to that setting. At the same time, they found ability timers and so much more. X dies much less frequently now, and periodically comments on how game changing that was for them.

As an addition to this. The Danger Color can be changed. For those who have issues seeing certain colors, setting that color to Pepto Bismal Pink really makes the danger zone stand out when all the visuals are going on in a boss fight. I even like it and I have no issues seeing red.

Where is that setting?

Here you go, and for anyone else that stumbles onto the thread.

Thanks!!