Why does the Elder Dragon passive still exist

Tonturri

129 HP regen per skill slotted might as well not exist - dragon knight effectively has a genuinely useless passive. I don't remember health regen ever being useful even in PvE in any meta, and it was only for a bit back when Troll King/Orgnum's was a valid combo until health regen was added to battle spirit.

It'd be great if this passive was replaced with something useful.

Taril

Several classes have some form of "Defensive boost per skill slotted"

DK's happens to be Health Recovery, due to it being part of their identity what with their Major Fortitude from Dragon Blood.

As far as it goes, 258 recovery per skill isn't too bad. If you 6 slot then you get 1548 recovery, which is a little more than Strategic Reserve's 1500 which some people like to build around for solo stuff.

Of course, the main thing is that for the most part Health Recovery is kind of gimped with it getting inexplicably low values from most sources (Meanwhile, PvP still has Battle Spirit nerfing it to stop it being a thing there)

Overall, most of these "Per skill slotted" things generally just feel kind of mediocre in normal builds since you don't often stack a bunch of skills from a single skill line so these things generally end up giving less than a standard passive.

Tonturri

Taril wrote: »

Several classes have some form of "Defensive boost per skill slotted"

DK's happens to be Health Recovery, due to it being part of their identity what with their Major Fortitude from Dragon Blood.

As far as it goes, 258 recovery per skill isn't too bad. If you 6 slot then you get 1548 recovery, which is a little more than Strategic Reserve's 1500 which some people like to build around for solo stuff.

Of course, the main thing is that for the most part Health Recovery is kind of gimped with it getting inexplicably low values from most sources (Meanwhile, PvP still has Battle Spirit nerfing it to stop it being a thing there)

Overall, most of these "Per skill slotted" things generally just feel kind of mediocre in normal builds since you don't often stack a bunch of skills from a single skill line so these things generally end up giving less than a standard passive.

I get what they were going for but it just doesn't work with health regen. Maybe it'd be more workable if both bars were considered 'active' at the same time. It needs to be changed, imo, or buffed to a level so absurd just to be useful (just for being health regen) that it might as well be changed anyway.

I don't mind mediocre passives - not everything can be build-defining. But Elder Dragon has been this way for, insofar as I can recall, since launch and never even been mediocre.

Taril

Tonturri wrote: »

I get what they were going for but it just doesn't work with health regen. Maybe it'd be more workable if both bars were considered 'active' at the same time. It needs to be changed, imo, or buffed to a level so absurd just to be useful (just for being health regen) that it might as well be changed anyway.

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Like the overall premise isn't bad, having a permanent HoT ticking away giving you more health over time. But the low values of everything combined with Recovery's 2 second tick rate and the end result is meh (It's similar to the feeling every healer felt when HoTs got changed to 2s tick rates) - Even with Major Fortitude (Which is ironically uncommon given how mediocre it is)

Meanwhile... You compare how much effort it takes to get any sort of reasonable Health Recovery to just slotting Vigor or Sage's Remedy and getting much more healing, across everyone nearby...

sans-culottes

Necromancers have a passive that boosts resource regeneration when pets are active, but their pets only last ~15 seconds. That the execrable Sacrificial Bones/Grave Lord’s Sacrifice is explicitly called out in this awful passive is embarrassing. Pathetic that this useless ability is absurdly treated as a pet—why bother? Frankly, what you’ve cited is way better. Lol

BXR_Lonestar

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Health recovery is actually a really fun stat, but unfortunately, the only way to get enough of it to really matter is to go into the atherian archive with health recovery food and hope you can stack a bunch of those 45% extra health regen visions ontop of eachother.

I had few runs in IA where this vision kept coming up as the only useful perk so I grabbed it multiple times, ate sugar skulls, and used strategic reserves and my health regen was nearly 10k. It definitely helped alot, and I can only imagine how it would have been had I slotted in something like Bee Keeper or Green Pact as my defensive/survivability set.

But outside the archive, health recovery is pretty much useless. I definitely would like them to take a look at some of the bonuses in the archive and see if they can figure out how to make sets based off of them that will allow you to make some of these stats more useful in other parts of the game.

Tonturri

Taril wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I get what they were going for but it just doesn't work with health regen. Maybe it'd be more workable if both bars were considered 'active' at the same time. It needs to be changed, imo, or buffed to a level so absurd just to be useful (just for being health regen) that it might as well be changed anyway.

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Like the overall premise isn't bad, having a permanent HoT ticking away giving you more health over time. But the low values of everything combined with Recovery's 2 second tick rate and the end result is meh (It's similar to the feeling every healer felt when HoTs got changed to 2s tick rates) - Even with Major Fortitude (Which is ironically uncommon given how mediocre it is)

Meanwhile... You compare how much effort it takes to get any sort of reasonable Health Recovery to just slotting Vigor or Sage's Remedy and getting much more healing, across everyone nearby...

Could just change it to a base value, and then change all health recovery stuff on gear, passives, etc to healing taken. And make healing taken work on health regen, so the original concept is still there but it's ends up being actually useful.

sans-culottes wrote: »

Necromancers have a passive that boosts resource regeneration when pets are active, but their pets only last ~15 seconds. That the execrable Sacrificial Bones/Grave Lord’s Sacrifice is explicitly called out in this awful passive is embarrassing. Pathetic that this useless ability is absurdly treated as a pet—why bother? Frankly, what you’ve cited is way better. Lol

I'd take Undead Confederate any day over Elder Dragon, it's just better. And the skeletal archer/arcanist lasts 20 seconds.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Health recovery is actually a really fun stat, but unfortunately, the only way to get enough of it to really matter is to go into the atherian archive with health recovery food and hope you can stack a bunch of those 45% extra health regen visions ontop of eachother.

I had few runs in IA where this vision kept coming up as the only useful perk so I grabbed it multiple times, ate sugar skulls, and used strategic reserves and my health regen was nearly 10k. It definitely helped alot, and I can only imagine how it would have been had I slotted in something like Bee Keeper or Green Pact as my defensive/survivability set.

But outside the archive, health recovery is pretty much useless. I definitely would like them to take a look at some of the bonuses in the archive and see if they can figure out how to make sets based off of them that will allow you to make some of these stats more useful in other parts of the game.

I think health regen occupied an interesting and unique position in the game that just wasn't given enough support or options until it was nerfed. It wasn't impacted by battle spirit and, iirc, Major/Minor defile healing debuffs didn't work on it. Battle spirit probably should've reduced it (though definitely not by 50%) from the beginning, but it was a cool way to get around those debuffs, and it took a lot of investment for it to be useful. The archive definitely has some cool bonuses that'd be interesting to see elsewhere. Having health regen serve as a way to soft-counter healing reduction would be great, imo, especially since it still takes a decent amount of investment to really do anything with it.

BXR_Lonestar

I think health regen occupied an interesting and unique position in the game that just wasn't given enough support or options until it was nerfed. It wasn't impacted by battle spirit and, iirc, Major/Minor defile healing debuffs didn't work on it. Battle spirit probably should've reduced it (though definitely not by 50%) from the beginning, but it was a cool way to get around those debuffs, and it took a lot of investment for it to be useful. The archive definitely has some cool bonuses that'd be interesting to see elsewhere. Having health regen serve as a way to soft-counter healing reduction would be great, imo, especially since it still takes a decent amount of investment to really do anything with it.

And tbh you have to sacrifice using your ulti if you want to maximize the stat. You CAN build for it, but it really isn't that useful for anything beyond normal content.

sans-culottes

Tonturri wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I get what they were going for but it just doesn't work with health regen. Maybe it'd be more workable if both bars were considered 'active' at the same time. It needs to be changed, imo, or buffed to a level so absurd just to be useful (just for being health regen) that it might as well be changed anyway.

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Like the overall premise isn't bad, having a permanent HoT ticking away giving you more health over time. But the low values of everything combined with Recovery's 2 second tick rate and the end result is meh (It's similar to the feeling every healer felt when HoTs got changed to 2s tick rates) - Even with Major Fortitude (Which is ironically uncommon given how mediocre it is)

Meanwhile... You compare how much effort it takes to get any sort of reasonable Health Recovery to just slotting Vigor or Sage's Remedy and getting much more healing, across everyone nearby...

Could just change it to a base value, and then change all health recovery stuff on gear, passives, etc to healing taken. And make healing taken work on health regen, so the original concept is still there but it's ends up being actually useful.

sans-culottes wrote: »

Necromancers have a passive that boosts resource regeneration when pets are active, but their pets only last ~15 seconds. That the execrable Sacrificial Bones/Grave Lord’s Sacrifice is explicitly called out in this awful passive is embarrassing. Pathetic that this useless ability is absurdly treated as a pet—why bother? Frankly, what you’ve cited is way better. Lol

I'd take Undead Confederate any day over Elder Dragon, it's just better. And the skeletal archer/arcanist lasts 20 seconds.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Health recovery is actually a really fun stat, but unfortunately, the only way to get enough of it to really matter is to go into the atherian archive with health recovery food and hope you can stack a bunch of those 45% extra health regen visions ontop of eachother.

I had few runs in IA where this vision kept coming up as the only useful perk so I grabbed it multiple times, ate sugar skulls, and used strategic reserves and my health regen was nearly 10k. It definitely helped alot, and I can only imagine how it would have been had I slotted in something like Bee Keeper or Green Pact as my defensive/survivability set.

But outside the archive, health recovery is pretty much useless. I definitely would like them to take a look at some of the bonuses in the archive and see if they can figure out how to make sets based off of them that will allow you to make some of these stats more useful in other parts of the game.

I think health regen occupied an interesting and unique position in the game that just wasn't given enough support or options until it was nerfed. It wasn't impacted by battle spirit and, iirc, Major/Minor defile healing debuffs didn't work on it. Battle spirit probably should've reduced it (though definitely not by 50%) from the beginning, but it was a cool way to get around those debuffs, and it took a lot of investment for it to be useful. The archive definitely has some cool bonuses that'd be interesting to see elsewhere. Having health regen serve as a way to soft-counter healing reduction would be great, imo, especially since it still takes a decent amount of investment to really do anything with it.

Remind me: How long does SacBones/GLS last?

Tonturri

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I get what they were going for but it just doesn't work with health regen. Maybe it'd be more workable if both bars were considered 'active' at the same time. It needs to be changed, imo, or buffed to a level so absurd just to be useful (just for being health regen) that it might as well be changed anyway.

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Like the overall premise isn't bad, having a permanent HoT ticking away giving you more health over time. But the low values of everything combined with Recovery's 2 second tick rate and the end result is meh (It's similar to the feeling every healer felt when HoTs got changed to 2s tick rates) - Even with Major Fortitude (Which is ironically uncommon given how mediocre it is)

Meanwhile... You compare how much effort it takes to get any sort of reasonable Health Recovery to just slotting Vigor or Sage's Remedy and getting much more healing, across everyone nearby...

Could just change it to a base value, and then change all health recovery stuff on gear, passives, etc to healing taken. And make healing taken work on health regen, so the original concept is still there but it's ends up being actually useful.

sans-culottes wrote: »

Necromancers have a passive that boosts resource regeneration when pets are active, but their pets only last ~15 seconds. That the execrable Sacrificial Bones/Grave Lord’s Sacrifice is explicitly called out in this awful passive is embarrassing. Pathetic that this useless ability is absurdly treated as a pet—why bother? Frankly, what you’ve cited is way better. Lol

I'd take Undead Confederate any day over Elder Dragon, it's just better. And the skeletal archer/arcanist lasts 20 seconds.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

To be fair, they could really do with overhauling the entire Health Recovery system as a whole. Given there's a lot of health recovery based stuff that just... Well, sucks.

Health recovery is actually a really fun stat, but unfortunately, the only way to get enough of it to really matter is to go into the atherian archive with health recovery food and hope you can stack a bunch of those 45% extra health regen visions ontop of eachother.

I had few runs in IA where this vision kept coming up as the only useful perk so I grabbed it multiple times, ate sugar skulls, and used strategic reserves and my health regen was nearly 10k. It definitely helped alot, and I can only imagine how it would have been had I slotted in something like Bee Keeper or Green Pact as my defensive/survivability set.

But outside the archive, health recovery is pretty much useless. I definitely would like them to take a look at some of the bonuses in the archive and see if they can figure out how to make sets based off of them that will allow you to make some of these stats more useful in other parts of the game.

I think health regen occupied an interesting and unique position in the game that just wasn't given enough support or options until it was nerfed. It wasn't impacted by battle spirit and, iirc, Major/Minor defile healing debuffs didn't work on it. Battle spirit probably should've reduced it (though definitely not by 50%) from the beginning, but it was a cool way to get around those debuffs, and it took a lot of investment for it to be useful. The archive definitely has some cool bonuses that'd be interesting to see elsewhere. Having health regen serve as a way to soft-counter healing reduction would be great, imo, especially since it still takes a decent amount of investment to really do anything with it.

Remind me: How long does SacBones/GLS last?

You can check stuff like that in online skill calcs if you can't log in to the game for whatever reason: https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build-planer/

ZOS_Icy

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YandereGirlfriend

Add to this the class passives that extend the duration of class abilities.

Like... shouldn't that just be baked into the skills themselves rather than pre-nerfing them and then wasting class passive slots on un-nerfing them?

Necro, for example, had many of its damage abilities pre-nerfed under the justification that the Rapid Rot passive boosted them back up to the regular damage standards. Like, what is the point here?! No actual power is gained so why not just delete the passive altogether and save some CPU cycles on the unnecessary multiplication.

Also, Skeletal Mage and Archer were pre-nerfed and those never benefited from Rapid Rot do begin with since they are Direct Damage abilities! So they are just nerfed abilities without redress. Absolute madness.

Tonturri

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Add to this the class passives that extend the duration of class abilities.

Like... shouldn't that just be baked into the skills themselves rather than pre-nerfing them and then wasting class passive slots on un-nerfing them?

Necro, for example, had many of its damage abilities pre-nerfed under the justification that the Rapid Rot passive boosted them back up to the regular damage standards. Like, what is the point here?! No actual power is gained so why not just delete the passive altogether and save some CPU cycles on the unnecessary multiplication.

Also, Skeletal Mage and Archer were pre-nerfed and those never benefited from Rapid Rot do begin with since they are Direct Damage abilities! So they are just nerfed abilities without redress. Absolute madness.

This is a good point, I forgot about that. Passives should differentiate classes from one another, but instead we have a whole host of generic passives that every class has to have, otherwise they're weaker. The 'here's 18%/200/400 more regen', the good 'ol ult gen passive, and so on. We also have a ton of More X on active bar stuff, which I'm convinced is what contributes to ZOS' server struggles - recalculating a whole bunch of stuff every time someone bar swaps and a myriad of small, pointless passives with lots of numbers and modifiers.

I could maybe see pre-nerfing *some* class abilities with the idea that they'll be boosted up by class passives, but only if that passive then extends to other stuff that can actually be used...But that doesn't end up actually being the case. There aren't enough DoT skills, or even bar space at that, for it to work out.