Easy rewards

Kelenan7368

A few months ago ESO had an event where you could earn THE STAFF OF WORMS from farming dolmans.
Myself and thousands of others in the community spent days farming dolmans to get this drop.
And now in this event you can get it with a click of a button! Making the value of this rare drop earned item valueless!

I don't know who made this decision to make a rare earned item easy to obtain for the whole community but its a bad 1!

Making rare items common that people spends days to earn take all the value from it and makes the game Valueless!

I quit Rift for doing this practice and I will quit ESO if this practice of taking things I have spent days earning in this game due to the rarity of the item and making them available to everyone with a click of a button!

Why on earth would I continue to pay ESO money to undo my efforts in this game!

Please review what you have done here, and please do not make rare items easy and common place any longer!

Arunei

Why have the mentality of "because I struggled for X everyone else has to"? It doesn't take away that you got the thing if it's made easier for others to get them. Why would you want people to go through the same frustration as you did? And what about the people who went through all that frustration and got nothing last year?

Bringing things back and not making them a total grindfest is a good thing, because everyone was talking since last year how awful that whole thing was. Now people who struggled and got nothing can pick these things up, and people who missed last year for whatever reason don't have to suffer with that same frustration. I can understand being upset over spending that much time if you thought stuff wasn't coming back, but I genuinely don't understand being angry over people not having to struggle.

valenwood_vegan

Just to add to the above, it's not like getting these items was some great achievement. It was horrible, grindy rng, pure and simple. Now I would be mad if they took something that actually reflects a lot of skill and hard work, like a trial trifecta reward, and handed it out to everyone as a participation trophy.

But event rewards are kinda supposed to be fun and generally available to everyone, and the way the anniversary event style page drops were designed last year was an affront to this event philosophy and caused a lot of anger and outrage in the community. People, through no fault of their own, could have spent even more time grinding the pages than OP did and come away from the event with *nothing*, just because of a poorly implemented rng system. Others may have gotten the pages in minutes... yeah wow some great accomplishment! I applaud zos trying to make this right.

And one other thing to note is that most event rewards return in future events, and generally become easier to obtain over time (for example, the trend of past event items being placed in grab bags on the impressario in the future... old event style pages being rewarded in event boxes after the once per day new style page... etc.).

Really, if one is looking to flex more exclusive rewards, the best place to look is probably difficult content (and hopefully more rewards will continue to be added to such content).

Nomadic_Atmoran

Its an event reward. Theres nothing rare about it outside of a useless drop rate. Stop attaching your sense of value to generic items.

Vonnegut2506

I earned the Staff of Worms style page by doing three dolmen. What hard work exactly?

Amottica

I doubt the real value of the staff has changed. It is just a little easier to get, and I suspect it was labeled as an exclusive reward like the Senche Stripped Tiger Mount was for those who started playing ESO from the start.

I think @Vonnegut2506 has put this into perspective with the post above this.

Desiato

I don't disagree with the OP. I did the original grind too, BUT I recognized they would eventually capitulate to the demands to make it more accessible so I'm not disappointed. They will always give in and they have to because they have trained their playerbase to expect it.

I did enjoy using the items while they were less common at least. It was nice to have something rare that wasn't purchased with cash.

AcadianPaladin

Do people actually pay attention/notice/care what motif others use on their weapon? Honestly, the only thing I generally notice about other players is when they have an annoying mount that explodes into neon cartoon graphics when summoned. And in that case, 'impressed' is not the word that comes to mind.

DenverRalphy

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

A few months ago ESO had an event where you could earn THE STAFF OF WORMS from farming dolmans.
Myself and thousands of others in the community spent days farming dolmans to get this drop.
And now in this event you can get it with a click of a button! Making the value of this rare drop earned item valueless!

I don't know who made this decision to make a rare earned item easy to obtain for the whole community but its a bad 1!

Making rare items common that people spends days to earn take all the value from it and makes the game Valueless!

I quit Rift for doing this practice and I will quit ESO if this practice of taking things I have spent days earning in this game due to the rarity of the item and making them available to everyone with a click of a button!

Why on earth would I continue to pay ESO money to undo my efforts in this game!

Please review what you have done here, and please do not make rare items easy and common place any longer!

While I'm in favor of keeping rare items rare, in this particular instance it's more of a "Kiss and make up" gesture after the horrible execution of Jubiliee. And I'm okay with that.

AzuraFan

Over time ZOS has modified quite a few things to make them easier (or more convenient). I mean, I had to individually fillet thousands of fish before they added bulk filleting to the provisioning station. I did that one achievement that required you to do a daily 150 times before they brought it back to 30, in line with the others. Some people did the really difficult achievements on every alt before achievements were made account-wide.

I don't care when ZOS makes things easier to get for other players when I had to grind them out. It's an MMO. Things change.

In this specific case, it was to make up for the horrible RNG on these items during what was supposed to be an anniversary celebration. They're making up for that now. I won't be spending event tickets on them, but some players really wanted these items and despite grinding for hours, never got them.

XSTRONG

I totally agree with you, Zos making them super easy to get now and are selling them for Event tickets that can be bought with RL money are ridiculous.

They could have just have them drop again this Event with same droprate for respect to all players that spent hours to get them.

What Zos dont seem to know about how a player base work is that it will always have players that do not want to put in the effort for certain things in game. Its how it works and it dont have to be made super easy and buyable with RL money.

Adremal

Desiato wrote: »

They will always give in and they have to because they have trained their playerbase to expect it.

It's the other way around. You were trained to accept artificial scarcity as good game design, which it isn't, and gave in to FOMO.
On the other hand those who didn't allow themselves to be "trained" and refused to accept artificial scarcity and FOMO as good game design either lucked out last year, or reaped some baubles a year later, while not enduring hours upon hours of suffering. I still remember the horror stories being posted here about not getting drop X for 7-8 hours straight (and I do remember people getting the drops in 2-3 tries due to RNG, so skill was also not involved in any way or form).

Desiato

Adremal wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

They will always give in and they have to because they have trained their playerbase to expect it.

It's the other way around. You were trained to accept artificial scarcity as good game design, which it isn't, and gave in to FOMO.
On the other hand those who didn't allow themselves to be "trained" and refused to accept artificial scarcity and FOMO as good game design either lucked out last year, or reaped some baubles a year later, while not enduring hours upon hours of suffering. I still remember the horror stories being posted here about not getting drop X for 7-8 hours straight (and I do remember people getting the drops in 2-3 tries due to RNG, so skill was also not involved in any way or form).

No, it's not the other way around. I am happy to accept not having something if I don't enjoy the task.

Having rare items is fun in both RL and in games. That's why games have them. I've played RPGs since the 80s and know how they evolved. Gary Gygax and the other creators of dungeons and dragons didn't innovate loot tables that included rare items to induce FOMO. It was done because it's exciting to find rare treasure.

AzuraFan

Desiato wrote: »

Gary Gygax and the other creators of dungeons and dragons didn't innovate loot tables that included rare items to induce FOMO. It was done because it's exciting to find rare treasure.

It depends on how it's done. If you find the rare treasure because you explored off the beaten path, solved a puzzle, or beat a unique, challenging enemy, that's exciting. If you find it because you did the same mind-numbing activity for hours on end, that's not exciting. That's boring. And it's really not fun if you do the same mind-numbing activity for hours and get nothing, which happens too often in this game.

Adremal

Desiato wrote: »

No, it's not the other way around.

It absolutely is, I've even explained how and why, so you decided to just rebuke with a hollow "no" and an attempt to steer the conversation to Gygax, and thereby shot yourself in the foot without even realizing it, because the hallmark of his design philosophy is to have fun, no matter the tables, rolls, and rules - to have fun regardless of the rules, to override the rules should they turn detrimental to the game's experience. That's what set aside his system from others - the DM can bend the rules. Rules, tables, rolls and such are but tools to the DM, not something the DM should be bound to. And to conclude while staying on topic, D&D transpositions reflect this: they do not feature artificial scarcity. It's exciting to loot Carsomyr off of Firkraag's body because it's a challenging fight, not because there's artificial scarcity or FOMO involved. Gygax and by extension D&D transpositions do not attempt to train, but to entertain.

Desiato

Adremal wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

No, it's not the other way around.

It absolutely is, I've even explained how and why, so you decided to just rebuke with a hollow "no" and an attempt to steer the conversation to Gygax, and thereby shot yourself in the foot without even realizing it, because the hallmark of his design philosophy is to have fun, no matter the tables, rolls, and rules - to have fun regardless of the rules, to override the rules should they turn detrimental to the game's experience. That's what set aside his system from others - the DM can bend the rules. Rules, tables, rolls and such are but tools to the DM, not something the DM should be bound to. And to conclude while staying on topic, D&D transpositions reflect this: they do not feature artificial scarcity. It's exciting to loot Carsomyr off of Firkraag's body because it's a challenging fight, not because there's artificial scarcity or FOMO involved. Gygax and by extension D&D transpositions do not attempt to train, but to entertain.

First of all, FOMO is a subjective thing. If one experiences it, it is a them thing. While it's true all marketers use it, if a person is affected by it, it is fully within their power to control.

Secondly, almost gameplay aspects are "artificial". We're not really using swords to stab real dragons. However, the scarcity can be real, regardless if it was designed and how it is applied.

The point is loot tables weren't innovated to psychologically exploit players. Not in pen and paper D&D, nor when they were implemented in the first computer RPGs and MUDs. They were implemented because it's fun and exciting to find rare items, period.

I enjoyed having rare items to adventure for and it was fun to loot them. If I didn't, I would have put the proposition into perspective and declined. I would have preferred skill based gating through challenging encounters that resulted in the same level of scarcity, but believe me, that would have resulted in even more outrage!

This is a difficult topic to discuss in the forums because it relates to psychology and other things we are discouraged to discuss here, so I'll let my points stand.

DenverRalphy

Adremal wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

No, it's not the other way around.

<snip>
And to conclude while staying on topic, D&D transpositions reflect this: they do not feature artificial scarcity. It's exciting to loot Carsomyr off of Firkraag's body because it's a challenging fight, not because there's artificial scarcity or FOMO involved. Gygax and by extension D&D transpositions do not attempt to train, but to entertain.

It's not the prize that made it exciting, but it is what made it satisfying and rewarding. If the prize were given away even after failure, the sense of accomplishment takes a massive hit.

Ingenon

I do not like rewards that are tied to RNG. Because a one in a hundred chance for an RNG drop means that one player will get the drop in three tries, while another player will try one hundred times and not get the drop. In my opinion, this is terrible game design. There is no player skill in this, it is all luck of the draw.

On the other hand, I like the current Golden Pursuits. Want the Elven Hero Costume? Everyone that gets it has to do 12 activities. Nobody gets it after only doing three activities.

Hapexamendios

I got all of them during the first event. It does not bother me that people can get them easier now.

Adremal

Desiato wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

No, it's not the other way around.

It absolutely is, I've even explained how and why, so you decided to just rebuke with a hollow "no" and an attempt to steer the conversation to Gygax, and thereby shot yourself in the foot without even realizing it, because the hallmark of his design philosophy is to have fun, no matter the tables, rolls, and rules - to have fun regardless of the rules, to override the rules should they turn detrimental to the game's experience. That's what set aside his system from others - the DM can bend the rules. Rules, tables, rolls and such are but tools to the DM, not something the DM should be bound to. And to conclude while staying on topic, D&D transpositions reflect this: they do not feature artificial scarcity. It's exciting to loot Carsomyr off of Firkraag's body because it's a challenging fight, not because there's artificial scarcity or FOMO involved. Gygax and by extension D&D transpositions do not attempt to train, but to entertain.

First of all, FOMO is a subjective thing. If one experiences it, it is a them thing. While it's true all marketers use it, if a person is affected by it, it is fully within their power to control.
(snip)
This is a difficult topic to discuss in the forums because it relates to psychology and other things we are discouraged to discuss here, so I'll let my points stand.

Of course it affects people differently, I've never claimed otherwise. My point is that you claimed people had been "trained" to appreciate certain implementations, where in fact it is you who took the lure, so to speak. And if you're aware we're discouraged from discussing "psychology" and such on the forums (of which I found no mention in the rules which I just double-checked), why did you even start? It's you who first took the "training" tangent. Now, "training" in the context you've used it is offensive to both ZOS and a subset of the player base, as it implies that ZOS somewhat brainwashes ("trains") players, so I can only surmise you're playing games of sophistry, and will leave you to your... standing points.

wolfie1.0.

It's only value is that it's a limited time drop that you can't sell or trade. If you got yours previously then you got to enjoy it for that time.

Otherwise, it doesn't have any value.

SeaGtGruff

One time, I stood in line in the bitter cold for nearly an hour to get into a movie at the midnight opening. And now people can watch it FOR FREE on the Pluto TV app! I spent a lot of money for my ticket, and a LOT more additional money on popcorn, chocolate-covered peanuts, and soda. What an outrage! I expect to be fully reimbursed for all of that. >:(

Turtle_Bot

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Do people actually pay attention/notice/care what motif others use on their weapon? Honestly, the only thing I generally notice about other players is when they have an annoying mount that explodes into neon cartoon graphics when summoned. And in that case, 'impressed' is not the word that comes to mind.

Sometimes I'll notice if someone has something that looks really good (much easier to notice with armor tbh), but outside of that, I don't really care what others have in terms of cosmetics since it doesn't affect me playing the game outside of going "that looks cool".

Idinuse

I too suffered through the grinds for the Style Pages at the first event. I, however, think it is grand for ZOS to exhibit generosity in making things like this available to more people. I have been "flashing" my staffs since the grind, and just feel happy now that more people can have a rewarding feeling in the game.

On that point I would also like to complement ZOS for the relatively easy and fast Golden Pursuit this month - during the Pan Tamriel Event. This gave the rewarding feeling the game needs and at the same time it opens up for us to focus on the event and do activities of our choosing to add to Motif Collections or what ever we have long wished for in our own time.

Suddenly the game is filled with players doing various event activities and helping each other while the drop rates feel rewarding. The game suddenly feels organic. Well done.

Arunei

I'll even drop this story again since it's relevant.

I got the Soul Shriven Skin and Stonefire Scamp drops from the center of IC after a BUTTLOAD of farming. And then they introduced an event where people could buy both for 10 tickets each.

Didn't bother me then, doesn't bother me all these years later. I was just glad there was another way for people to get something they wanted without having to waste who knows how many hours before finally getting either (if they didn't give up on it that is).

There's no reason for things up to RNG not to have periods where that RNG is either less butt, or.circumvented altogether. It isn't skill to sit and grind a Dolmen or fishing for hours, it's just time spent. Saving people those hours so they can do stuff in the game they actually want to do is always a win in my book.

Lugaldu

You could say the same for fishing. I spent months to become Master Angler and now the rare fish drops are curated... Great for those who don´t have the title yet and I have to admit that it leaves a bitter taste for me since I could have spent my time in ESO with something more interesting than fishing for days and weeks, but thats like it is - one time you have to suffer, but maybe next time you are the one who benefits of something.

Arunei

Lugaldu wrote: »

You could say the same for fishing. I spent months to become Master Angler and now the rare fish drops are curated... Great for those who don´t have the title yet and I have to admit that it leaves a bitter taste for me since I could have spent my time in ESO with something more interesting than fishing for days and weeks, but thats like it is - one time you have to suffer, but maybe next time you are the one who benefits of something.

Unless they change their minds and implement the change permanently, I think curated Fish is only for the duration of the event.

sans-culottes

Grinding is a part of MMORPGs. I suspect those of you for whom grinding for cosmetic items is a bridge too far would’ve despised games like EverQuest.

LalMirchi

In older times walking to to school uphill both ways in deadly storms was the normal, hunkering down with bended backs was excruciating to say the least.

In newer times one can take a shortcut, what's not to like?

sans-culottes

LalMirchi wrote: »

In older times walking to to school uphill both ways in deadly storms was the normal, hunkering down with bended backs was excruciating to say the least.

In newer times one can take a shortcut, what's not to like?

That’s nice. It still doesn’t change that you’d have found the tropes of the genre very frustrating in other examples. But then again, EverQuest also isn’t walking through the snow in the cold. Nor is WoW. But hey, if you like everything just being handed to you, if that’s gratifying, then please know I understand the value of “shortcuts” to those seeking immediate gratification. Now that I think of it, best to avoid anything with RNG, yeah? D&D—yikes! Might as well be walking from cave to cave, right?

Vonnegut2506

Everquest was the first MMO I played, and I enjoyed it back when I was in my twenties and had a lot of extra time to do nothing but mindlessly grind mobs for hours for one bubble of experience. I was okay camping Plane of Fear for eight hours because there really was no other option. In this day and age, there are so many MMO's available that a game can't punish its players and expect that people are just going to stick around. Anyone still willing to put up with terrible, grindy MMO mechanics can probably find a small MMO that still caters to that crowd, but thankfully, ESO is moving even farther away from that model.