New player experience: the map and zones like Grahtwood

Northwold · January 25

Given the focus on improving the new player experience I just wanted to raise something I'd almost forgotten about because I'd blanked my mind of the base game zones that are littered with obstacles like cliffs.

I did one of the Shadowfen Murkmire dailies yesterday that took me on a four location fetch quest in Grahtwood. For three of the four locations I struggled to get to them in the first place from wayshrines because the map doesn't make clear where the cliffs are / went the wrong way a very long way and reached a dead end surrounded by cliffs and sea. For two of them, I then couldn't find my way back to the wayshrine and ended up losing patience and porting to the Rosy Lion in Daggerfall and going to the Daggerfall wayshrine from there to get back to Grahtwood.

I now remember what this was like as a new player -- literally, "I want to get out of this zone as soon as possible." Perhaps the map could receive some love in this respect?

kind_hero · January 25

I have also retravelled in these areas - Grahtwood and Greenshade - for some treasure maps and leads. I completed the zones perhaps 9 years ago. I had the same feeling: I want to get the task done ASAP and leave the area, because of the map design.
It is really annoying to go one way, and discover that your destination is on the edge of some rock, but you need to go around 5 more minutes to get there.

Maybe the devs could add some slopes or at least some vines/ladder to go up/down. In Blackreach we have those nice void anomalies that allow teleports. Maybe that could be an idea. I also believe that some wayshrines have to be moved or even added, especially in cases where an incursion point, like a dolmen, is too far.

TaSheen · January 25

Wow. I LOVE Grahtwood's map, and from day one (meaning from when I was a new player myself) I haven't had any issue getting around it. One of my favorite zones.... and the first one I explored from top to bottom, edge to edge....

Sorry you've had such a problem with it. I personally don't want to see things like that made "easier".

Northwold · January 25

TaSheen wrote: »

Wow. I LOVE Grahtwood's map, and from day one (meaning from when I was a new player myself) I haven't had any issue getting around it. One of my favorite zones.... and the first one I explored from top to bottom, edge to edge....

Sorry you've had such a problem with it. I personally don't want to see things like that made "easier".

My own objection is to *the in game map* not the layout of the zone (although I do think it's poorly designed). The in game map in places like this is, to my mind, incomprehensible, and without an easily understandable map the zone becomes a chore.

TaSheen · January 25

Uh. I guess I'm really very different; I almost never look at the map even as a new player.... I just run around until I've found everything.

AlnilamE · January 25

"Grathwood - You can't get there from here." <-- That's what one of my guildies calls it.

That said, I like the zone as it is, but maybe the map can be improved to show the off-road paths a bit better.

ghastley · January 25

These people never played TES 3: Morrowind. Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

Taril · January 25

ghastley wrote: »

Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

*Laughs in Boots of Blinding Speed*

TaSheen · January 25

ghastley wrote: »

These people never played TES 3: Morrowind. Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

Yeah. Among other things....

Northwold · January 25

ghastley wrote: »

These people never played TES 3: Morrowind. Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

It didn't matter. Levitation.

Heren · January 25

I don't know - as a new player a few years back, I mainly focused on exploring the world and doing story quests, and going to a precise point as quickly and efficiently as possible wasn't really my main preoccupation - travelling a bit more to reach a destination was part of the discovery, and maybe I just wiped out the bad memories but I don't remember really struggling in these zones.

That being sayed, I do agree they are not the most pleasant to navigate when you redo content, or do repetitive content. Houses really help, and I was a fool to not buy the Grahtwood one sooner. But I wouldn't call that a new player problem - just a problem, althought maybe not a big one.

Just_Attivi · January 25

I mean, from a "Im going on an adventure" stand point, Grahtwood is pretty dope.

From a "I want to get these surveys done" standpoint, I literally just dont do grahtwood, because cliffs (theres an enchanting one in particular that is absolutely obnoxious, that also doesnt reset until youre so far away, and its just the worst lol)

100% agree, map could better indicate where cliffs are. Adding vines to climb might be nice too (which I didnt even know was a thing in the game for an embarrassingly long time)

tomofhyrule · January 25

ghastley wrote: »

These people never played TES 3: Morrowind. Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

"Yeah so to find the cave, go west out of town, then turn north at the big rock and walk seventy paces. Wait, what big rock? You know, the one over there. Yes, I know there are hundreds of rocks, just pick one."

Spoiler alert: the cave was actually southeast of town in the first place.

Vonnegut2506 · January 25

Just_Attivi wrote: »

I mean, from a "Im going on an adventure" stand point, Grahtwood is pretty dope.

From a "I want to get these surveys done" standpoint, I literally just dont do grahtwood, because cliffs (theres an enchanting one in particular that is absolutely obnoxious, that also doesnt reset until youre so far away, and its just the worst lol)

100% agree, map could better indicate where cliffs are. Adding vines to climb might be nice too (which I didnt even know was a thing in the game for an embarrassingly long time)

For the enchanting one, just jump off the cliff. The fall damage is not enough to kill you, and it is much quicker than riding up the coastline from the southern wayshrine.

SeaGtGruff · January 26

I can relate to the feeling of frustration when trying to get around in certain zones. However, the challenge of figuring out how to get from point A to point B has been an integral feature of adventure RPGs for decades.

TaSheen · January 26

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I can relate to the feeling of frustration when trying to get around in certain zones. However, the challenge of figuring out how to get from point A to point B has been an integral feature of adventure RPGs for decades.

Yes.... as regards single player games. MMOs.... not so much. Unless one is a player of MMOs as I am, which is unlikely to be the "norm"....

Northwold · January 26

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I can relate to the feeling of frustration when trying to get around in certain zones. However, the challenge of figuring out how to get from point A to point B has been an integral feature of adventure RPGs for decades.

I think you have to bear in mind the nature of the quests in this. Some (being polite) of ESO's quests are bare bones fetch quests. Pick up random object at place A, another random object at place B, talk to NPC at place C, deliver to place D. They can be dull as ditchwater in some cases and there's very little to be gained from making players get lost while grinding through these. It's just irritating. Whereas with a lot of single player games working it out is deliberately part of the game and delivers rewards. Not just "well done you you walked a totally unnecessary one mile to be able to get up a cliff you can't even see properly on the map".

thedocbwarren · January 26

I dislike that map but it's supposed to be like that as it's a forest. I thought immediately what a cool place as it was designed and modeled. It's hard to navigate but I'm not a wood elf. I'm surprised Argonians don't have underwater zones. I tired of the storyline when I first played there but it's as it should be.

GeneralGrundmann · January 26

It's part of the game, perhaps of all games where you can move freely, to learn to navigate (the map). You can also learn to read the map. Yes, cliffs and mountains might be marked better in some way on the map, but personally I think it's already quite good readable.

On a not so serious side note: Perhaps the devs could add an "auto-pilot travel-option". Just mark the spot on the map you want to go to, hit 'a' and your mount rides you the shortest/fastest legal way to this spot, also automatically avoiding enemies, and you can just enjoy the ride and look around.

cyclonus11 · January 26

Taril wrote: »

ghastley wrote: »

Not only was the map just like that, but you couldn't run because you lost stamina too quickly.

*Laughs in Boots of Blinding Speed*

*Cries in Argonians Couldn't Wear Boots*

Varana · January 26

Cliffs in Grahtwood are okay - they're annoying and the map could signal them much better (like indicating where you probably won't be able to climb), but at least they're obvious.

Much, much worse are the invisible walls they sometimes have (I think only in newer DLC) - Blackwood is especially egregious for this. You see a ridge that you're pretty sure you can get up with some hopping around, and as you reach the top, you run into an invisible wall and can't go on.

---

As for Morrowind - who cares if there are mountains in the way. You just fly over them.

LootAllTheStuff · January 26

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

It's part of the game, perhaps of all games where you can move freely, to learn to navigate (the map). You can also learn to read the map. Yes, cliffs and mountains might be marked better in some way on the map, but personally I think it's already quite good readable.

On a not so serious side note: Perhaps the devs could add an "auto-pilot travel-option". Just mark the spot on the map you want to go to, hit 'a' and your mount rides you the shortest/fastest legal way to this spot, also automatically avoiding enemies, and you can just enjoy the ride and look around.

Well, sort of readable, depending on your eyes and likely whether you play on console or PC. My biggest gripe with the maps is that the zoom (at least one console) stops just short of where it would actually be useful. It's like that old magic 8-ball item: "Location is fuzzy; check back later". It also seems to be a little inconsistent in that some areas you can zoom in closer than others (and no, I'm not talking about the city maps within zone maps).

If the next update is going to include graphical improvements, even a modest increase in map zoom would make a big difference for me.

Soarora · January 27

kind_hero wrote: »

I have also retravelled in these areas - Grahtwood and Greenshade - for some treasure maps and leads. I completed the zones perhaps 9 years ago. I had the same feeling: I want to get the task done ASAP and leave the area, because of the map design.
It is really annoying to go one way, and discover that your destination is on the edge of some rock, but you need to go around 5 more minutes to get there.

Maybe the devs could add some slopes or at least some vines/ladder to go up/down. In Blackreach we have those nice void anomalies that allow teleports. Maybe that could be an idea. I also believe that some wayshrines have to be moved or even added, especially in cases where an incursion point, like a dolmen, is too far.

Vines would be a pretty immersive way of lessening the issue.

SeaGtGruff · January 30

I still think that learning the easiest and/or fastest way to get around on the map is part of adventure RPGs. Once you figure out the best route to get to a particular destination, you can take that route the next time. If you stay away for so long that you forget the route, then you just need to relearn it from scratch or refresh your memory.

It's like most of the treasure maps in this game. They can be extremely difficult to figure out the first time (unless you're using an addon or an external reference), but after you dig up a particular map a few times you should be able to go right to it with little or no problems-- unless you don't do that particular map for an extended while and forget, in which case you need to find it again from scratch. I don't use any addons at all, and dislike having to look up treasure map locations if I can avoid it (but I will do so without remorse if I just cannot seem to find it on my own), yet there are many maps which were difficult to find the first several times-- even using an external reference-- which I'm now able to go directly to lickery-split without any trouble.

TaSheen · January 30

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I still think that learning the easiest and/or fastest way to get around on the map is part of adventure RPGs. Once you figure out the best route to get to a particular destination, you can take that route the next time. If you stay away for so long that you forget the route, then you just need to relearn it from scratch or refresh your memory.

It's like most of the treasure maps in this game. They can be extremely difficult to figure out the first time (unless you're using an addon or an external reference), but after you dig up a particular map a few times you should be able to go right to it with little or no problems-- unless you don't do that particular map for an extended while and forget, in which case you need to find it again from scratch. I don't use any addons at all, and dislike having to look up treasure map locations if I can avoid it (but I will do so without remorse if I just cannot seem to find it on my own), yet there are many maps which were difficult to find the first several times-- even using an external reference-- which I'm now able to go directly to lickery-split without any trouble.

Agreed. I however LOVE addons, so I take full advantage of them....

Sejr60 · January 30

As a new player I am struggling hard with the map.

It doesn't help much in many cases, and is confusing, so yes - I have also sprintet through quests to get them done as qickly as possible.

Espicially when it comes to different levels in delves for example, or the lack of zooming in. Also when you enter something or turn around, it seems like the mapper's hasn't checked if the maps were actually correct.

But like with other things in this game, it gives the impression of being an unfinished game and appatently no need to get things corrected.

kind_hero · January 31

Heren wrote: »

I don't know - as a new player a few years back, I mainly focused on exploring the world and doing story quests, and going to a precise point as quickly and efficiently as possible wasn't really my main preoccupation - travelling a bit more to reach a destination was part of the discovery, and maybe I just wiped out the bad memories but I don't remember really struggling in these zones.

That being sayed, I do agree they are not the most pleasant to navigate when you redo content, or do repetitive content. Houses really help, and I was a fool to not buy the Grahtwood one sooner. But I wouldn't call that a new player problem - just a problem, althought maybe not a big one.

The game is over 10 years old... Grahtwood, like other areas, have a dated design. Back then, maybe it was alright to wander alot or hug walls until you found a slope or a glitch to get across. Also, when the game was new, there weren't so many surveys or treasure map sources, and far less activities. When you are doing the zone for the first time, maybe it is fine, but I still think the design is dated. Look at games like Horizon, where you can climb anything, and as the game progresses, you unlock every type of terrain, even underwater. Such games reward you for exploring... here the exploring in areas like Grahtwood is annoying because the interest points are poorly placed.

I think zones like Grahtwood, Malabal Tor etc could be left as they are, except for some texture improvements, while moving some of the surveys/treasures points or placing wayshrines better. This way, people who want to feel lost in towering forests can enjoy the experience, and people who are just passing for the 10th time to get a survey or dig done, can save time.

VoxAdActa · January 31

I fully agree with giving the option to zoom the map in just slightly further, and with marking the impassible terrain more clearly.

The same little brownish humpy texture on the map can mean "impassible," "daunting, but there are paths through it," "gentle rolling hills," "completely flat but the vegetation is creepy and dead," and "I just thought the map would look better with some texture here."

Sometimes all of the above on the same zone map.

There's also no indication of which side of the brownish humpy texture is "above" and which is "below." There are lots of times where I've guessed wrong, either expecting to be able to jump down to my destination only to be stopped by a sheer wall, or else trying to stick to the high ground only to find my destination is now a death-fall below me.