Channeled "Beams", Templar and Bows

Markytous

Recently, I have been experimenting with a Bow centric PVE/PVP playstyle and was reminded of Toxic Barrage's changes some time ago. I understood that channeled beams were not supposed to be dodgeable (PVP environment), as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression are only blockable (in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable).

Templar is in a place right now where they are torn between identities which result in some players being very near and dear to Radiant Oppression - it is iconic, class-defining and powerful. This is why I, with deliberation, try to see if a compromise can exist where this skill can be dodgeable. This is indeed a PVP matter, so we need not worry about the PVE side of things, thank goodness. I do not want to foster cross-content player wars with this.

Currently during PVP encounters I find that, especially when outnumbered, a concentration of Radiant Oppressions on a player at 50% or lower HP offers little counterplay unless I can break line of sight (which may not be a luxury in Battleground maps situationally). I can attempt to block them, which basically functions as a slow on ones self and doesn't stop damage from continuing to hit you. Bashing would be more helpful if the cast range wasn't full range (28m).

I want Templar to be strong and full of fantasy flavor, but in essense I don't love the feeling of knowing there are a couple Templars against or on my team "Beam Trolling" players. Circling around, Toxic Barrage used to be similarly oppressive over range (and through terrain), but is now dodgeable. Is there any headway that can result in adjusting this skill so it remains strong but offers more counterplay? Do you feel that it is fine as is? Thanks for the read!

Kahnak

Markytous wrote: »

Recently, I have been experimenting with a Bow centric PVE/PVP playstyle and was reminded of Toxic Barrage's changes some time ago. I understood that channeled beams were not supposed to be dodgeable (PVP environment), as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression are only blockable (in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable).

Templar is in a place right now where they are torn between identities which result in some players being very near and dear to Radiant Oppression - it is iconic, class-defining and powerful. This is why I, with deliberation, try to see if a compromise can exist where this skill can be dodgeable. This is indeed a PVP matter, so we need not worry about the PVE side of things, thank goodness. I do not want to foster cross-content player wars with this.

Currently during PVP encounters I find that, especially when outnumbered, a concentration of Radiant Oppressions on a player at 50% or lower HP offers little counterplay unless I can break line of sight (which may not be a luxury in Battleground maps situationally). I can attempt to block them, which basically functions as a slow on ones self and doesn't stop damage from continuing to hit you. Bashing would be more helpful if the cast range wasn't full range (28m).

I want Templar to be strong and full of fantasy flavor, but in essense I don't love the feeling of knowing there are a couple Templars against or on my team "Beam Trolling" players. Circling around, Toxic Barrage used to be similarly oppressive over range (and through terrain), but is now dodgeable. Is there any headway that can result in adjusting this skill so it remains strong but offers more counterplay? Do you feel that it is fine as is? Thanks for the read!

"(in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable)"

They ARE interruptible. Venom Arrow, Crushing Shock or Hidden Blade would be your counter-play. Also, obviously any CC would stop the channel, as well, or a knock down/knock back like Toppling Charge (Also an interrupt), Piercing Javelin or Scatter Shot would work. I also think that considering most people's first instinct when being beamed is to run is also something that needs to be overcome, but that just comes with experience.

I think that Radiant Oppression is fine, as is. Especially considering that it's actually quite weak in PvP if it's not being used in Execute range. That being said, I'll freely admit that I don't often run into instances where I'm being beamed by several Templar players at once. At the same time, my assumption would be that the result is probably similar to what occurs when multiple people are spamming ANY ability on one player all at once - KO'd.

BXR_Lonestar

Honestly I built a bowplar just for S/G's and I was actually surprised at how effective it was. The ability to drop the balista ult AND dump extra attacks is actually pretty OP on a Plar given that you have the best execute in the game and you have jabs that can deal with close-in threats (and the counter for bow users is often to pressure them by getting close to them). So you can stand back, bait them in with your ranged attacks, pop balista, and before they know what's going on you can hit them with jabs and beam. It was actually pretty fun - but definitely not a common build in Cyro.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kahnak wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Recently, I have been experimenting with a Bow centric PVE/PVP playstyle and was reminded of Toxic Barrage's changes some time ago. I understood that channeled beams were not supposed to be dodgeable (PVP environment), as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression are only blockable (in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable).

Templar is in a place right now where they are torn between identities which result in some players being very near and dear to Radiant Oppression - it is iconic, class-defining and powerful. This is why I, with deliberation, try to see if a compromise can exist where this skill can be dodgeable. This is indeed a PVP matter, so we need not worry about the PVE side of things, thank goodness. I do not want to foster cross-content player wars with this.

Currently during PVP encounters I find that, especially when outnumbered, a concentration of Radiant Oppressions on a player at 50% or lower HP offers little counterplay unless I can break line of sight (which may not be a luxury in Battleground maps situationally). I can attempt to block them, which basically functions as a slow on ones self and doesn't stop damage from continuing to hit you. Bashing would be more helpful if the cast range wasn't full range (28m).

I want Templar to be strong and full of fantasy flavor, but in essense I don't love the feeling of knowing there are a couple Templars against or on my team "Beam Trolling" players. Circling around, Toxic Barrage used to be similarly oppressive over range (and through terrain), but is now dodgeable. Is there any headway that can result in adjusting this skill so it remains strong but offers more counterplay? Do you feel that it is fine as is? Thanks for the read!

Also, obviously any CC would stop the channel

[...]

I think that Radiant Oppression is fine, as is. Especially considering that it's actually quite weak in PvP if it's not being used in Execute range.

Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health.
BTW CC immunity is a thing.

On the other hand, people would point less fingers on some templar skills, if the animation would actually play before you are death beamed or knocked back via spear. But that's not an exclusive templar issue.

Kahnak

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Recently, I have been experimenting with a Bow centric PVE/PVP playstyle and was reminded of Toxic Barrage's changes some time ago. I understood that channeled beams were not supposed to be dodgeable (PVP environment), as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression are only blockable (in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable).

Templar is in a place right now where they are torn between identities which result in some players being very near and dear to Radiant Oppression - it is iconic, class-defining and powerful. This is why I, with deliberation, try to see if a compromise can exist where this skill can be dodgeable. This is indeed a PVP matter, so we need not worry about the PVE side of things, thank goodness. I do not want to foster cross-content player wars with this.

Currently during PVP encounters I find that, especially when outnumbered, a concentration of Radiant Oppressions on a player at 50% or lower HP offers little counterplay unless I can break line of sight (which may not be a luxury in Battleground maps situationally). I can attempt to block them, which basically functions as a slow on ones self and doesn't stop damage from continuing to hit you. Bashing would be more helpful if the cast range wasn't full range (28m).

I want Templar to be strong and full of fantasy flavor, but in essense I don't love the feeling of knowing there are a couple Templars against or on my team "Beam Trolling" players. Circling around, Toxic Barrage used to be similarly oppressive over range (and through terrain), but is now dodgeable. Is there any headway that can result in adjusting this skill so it remains strong but offers more counterplay? Do you feel that it is fine as is? Thanks for the read!

Also, obviously any CC would stop the channel

[...]

I think that Radiant Oppression is fine, as is. Especially considering that it's actually quite weak in PvP if it's not being used in Execute range.

Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health.
BTW CC immunity is a thing.

On the other hand, people would point less fingers on some templar skills, if the animation would actually play before you are death beamed or knocked back via spear. But that's not an exclusive templar issue.

"Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health. "

This incongruous juxtaposition isn't really helping whatever point you're trying to make here.

"BTW CC immunity is a thing."

And?

Markytous

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly I built a bowplar just for S/G's and I was actually surprised at how effective it was. The ability to drop the balista ult AND dump extra attacks is actually pretty OP on a Plar given that you have the best execute in the game and you have jabs that can deal with close-in threats (and the counter for bow users is often to pressure them by getting close to them). So you can stand back, bait them in with your ranged attacks, pop balista, and before they know what's going on you can hit them with jabs and beam. It was actually pretty fun - but definitely not a common build in Cyro.

Absolutely agree. Its a fun playstyle. I've managed to discuss with a few Bowplars in Cyrodiil and BGs about their experience and how on top of it all the playstyle absolutely breaks Relequen. Unblockable stuns, ranged oppressive executes and the dreadful Meteor Combo. It's frankly awesome and I enjoy snippets of that on my own Templar in PVP. Ballista into Javelin (unblockable) for some guarantees. If they're rolling then get some beams in (its not roll-dodgeable) while Relequen ticks down. The more I think about Templar the more I realize the class's gimmick is to have bypasses to the core combat mechanics. While it is majorly fun, it makes me wonder how that beam can feel more satisfying to survive (outside of desperately keeping HP at 100% against it).

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health.
BTW CC immunity is a thing.

On the other hand, people would point less fingers on some templar skills, if the animation would actually play before you are death beamed or knocked back via spear. But that's not an exclusive templar issue.

I have experienced that SO MANY TIMES! Before I see that beam cast or even a particle effect, I'm already looking at my death recap. Also yeah in response to the "any spammed attack ends in a KO", unfortunately for that argument it's simply not true. Spamming Silver Shards or Dizzying Swing or anything single target can result in a miriad of life-saving roll-dodges to LOS. The undodgeable component from 28m(+) range makes for some high pressure situations. I get it - we shouldn't be crying cuz we died in a 1vX situation. Each player should feel like they matter in a fight (Controversial considering the Ball Group stigma), but rulebreaker skills like Radiant Oppression make Soul Assault and Toxic Barrage seem underwhelming as Ultimates. Say we bash Radiant Oppression. It can be recast again in a second just like how Dark Deal can.

Perhaps the key takeaway here is that maybe we can get some reworks to the state "Interrupt" and the ramifications of being bashed while channeling. I've also been thinking about Off-Balance as well - it provides a stun but also amplifies resource restoration on full-charged Heavy Attack with a 15 second cooldown (7 second duration?). I'd love to see Off-Balance as a reliable access to a stun, see the cooldown dropped (CC Immunity exists), and the sustain implications removed completely. Maybe an Off-balance Target can't channel? Lower the duration if needed so it serves as a Medium Attack stun combo tool strictly. Tell me what you all think.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kahnak wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

Recently, I have been experimenting with a Bow centric PVE/PVP playstyle and was reminded of Toxic Barrage's changes some time ago. I understood that channeled beams were not supposed to be dodgeable (PVP environment), as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression are only blockable (in niche situations, the non-ultimate channels are bashable).

Templar is in a place right now where they are torn between identities which result in some players being very near and dear to Radiant Oppression - it is iconic, class-defining and powerful. This is why I, with deliberation, try to see if a compromise can exist where this skill can be dodgeable. This is indeed a PVP matter, so we need not worry about the PVE side of things, thank goodness. I do not want to foster cross-content player wars with this.

Currently during PVP encounters I find that, especially when outnumbered, a concentration of Radiant Oppressions on a player at 50% or lower HP offers little counterplay unless I can break line of sight (which may not be a luxury in Battleground maps situationally). I can attempt to block them, which basically functions as a slow on ones self and doesn't stop damage from continuing to hit you. Bashing would be more helpful if the cast range wasn't full range (28m).

I want Templar to be strong and full of fantasy flavor, but in essense I don't love the feeling of knowing there are a couple Templars against or on my team "Beam Trolling" players. Circling around, Toxic Barrage used to be similarly oppressive over range (and through terrain), but is now dodgeable. Is there any headway that can result in adjusting this skill so it remains strong but offers more counterplay? Do you feel that it is fine as is? Thanks for the read!

Also, obviously any CC would stop the channel

[...]

I think that Radiant Oppression is fine, as is. Especially considering that it's actually quite weak in PvP if it's not being used in Execute range.

Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health.
BTW CC immunity is a thing.

On the other hand, people would point less fingers on some templar skills, if the animation would actually play before you are death beamed or knocked back via spear. But that's not an exclusive templar issue.

"Obviously an Execute is weak outside of execute range. Yet Beam can be an very oppressive skill above 20%+ health. "

This incongruous juxtaposition isn't really helping whatever point you're trying to make here.

"BTW CC immunity is a thing."

And?

And? To downplay the power of Jesus Beam by simply stating it's fine because it isn't very strong outside execute range is dishonest and does not help your point either. Especially with it's strong and early scaling. It literally puts all the focus on you if the surrounding players are somewhat experienced.
And yes, while CCing can interrupt being beamed a good player will be cc immune while going for the kill.

Listen, I've got little issue with Templar but outright downplaying beam does not help those who play against them nor the class itself. Seemingly most of it's power budget went into that skill alone while jabs are left in the gutter.

Markytous

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Listen, I've got little issue with Templar but outright downplaying beam does not help those who play against them nor the class itself. Seemingly most of it's power budget went into that skill alone while jabs are left in the gutter.

This right here is exactly where I'm going. I greatly enjoyed the old Jabs and seeing the class output power being reallocated to a divisive "rulebreaker" skill (its a very cool skill may I add), seems a bit outdated now. The class has plenty of strengths now and the beamer playstyle is sort of an echo of before Templar had some genuinely nice updates. I want to see the whole class feel more solid in other ways such as seeing stronger Jabs or the shield skills.

Radiant Oppression as an outlier skill (undodgeable single target execute) pits it against AoE skills like Steel Tempest. Of course, it makes sense that AoE skills cannot be dodged. Jabs cannot be dodged! Templars do not need to lose out on power in this adjustment. Make Jabs the effective spammable they used to be instead. This fixes the "rulebreaker" status of Radiant Oppression.

Regarding Bows. Bows have only Arrow Barrage as an undodgeable skill (AoE Direct Damage). If we make channeled skills more potent but magnify the risk of being interrupted I could see something crazy happen - Focused Aim being UNDODGEABLE! Crazy right? Well that's where we're at with the beam. That beams great! But it's undodgeable... When Toxic Barrage is dodgeable as an ultimate.