What'dy'all think the direction "Performant Skills" will be taken in Cyrodiil?

Avran_Sylt

My guess is a reduction in AoE based skills, especially AoE DoT/HoTs that need to perform multiple updates and checks against anything within their radius and treat themselves as an independent entity. (I'd imagine this is kinda how it works).

Probably making more skills single-target, and if AoE, likely not persistent area based abilities.

MincMincMinc

From their statement they said all "classes will have PvP-specific skills"

There are a few ways of interpreting this:

1. Zos makes all new skills solely for pvp. Unlikely, but would be alot of work.
2. Zos makes new rules for skills. Hots&Dots wont stack, Heals may not cross out of group, Some AoE's may be capped, Some skills may have increasing cost ramps.
3. Zos bans certain skills

Id bet that they go #2 since it will barely impact most players. Zerglings who are casting into a 50man void wont be able to tell. Solo/smallman players may just need a morph change. Ballgroups will now be softcapped and wont sit with 12x every BIS hot/buff in the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

Whatever it will be, based on what we have seen since 2014, it will be either an indirect or direct buff to Ball Groups.

Sleepsin

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Whatever it will be, based on what we have seen since 2014, it will be either an indirect or direct buff to Ball Groups.

I believe it is only going to be in one of the campaigns. So the ball groups won't be on that campaign if it does have a negative affect on them.

Sluggy

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Avran_Sylt

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

rauyran

Since scribing can be seen as a new skill construction kit then I expect all PVP skills will be new ones using some unique effects but all using the same power costings as scribed skills. Also we've seen a huge number of new effects that could have been used for skills in Infinite Archive visions and verses.

MincMincMinc

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

Not that it would ever happen, but removing cc immunity on the receiving player and only having cc cooldowns on the caster would drastically hurt combat. It is fine in games like League where you may have 1 tank on the team which has a cc or two. However most players have 3+ forms of CC on their build on teams up to 50 players. So in combat youd be chain cced for potentially minutes at a time. Go into pvp and dont cc break ever, it wont go well.

Its not just 1vX builds that are tanky, the whole game has shifted due to design choices. Arguably pugs and ball groups are far more tanky because of infinite stacking. If zos prioritized a functional stat system rework, we wouldnt have these massive meta swings every few months.

Zodiarkslayer

Something similar to how Companions use skills is most likely ZOS' plan.

They'll remove all PvE abilities and passives. Instead you will be able to use something limited in scope and functionality, like companion abilities are limited by cooldown. Only with ressources, obviously.

It would be great, because it would remove all possibilities for exploitation. And it's the only way their performance increase claim can work.

Avran_Sylt

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

Not that it would ever happen, but removing cc immunity on the receiving player and only having cc cooldowns on the caster would drastically hurt combat. It is fine in games like League where you may have 1 tank on the team which has a cc or two. However most players have 3+ forms of CC on their build on teams up to 50 players. So in combat youd be chain cced for potentially minutes at a time. Go into pvp and dont cc break ever, it wont go well.

Its not just 1vX builds that are tanky, the whole game has shifted due to design choices. Arguably pugs and ball groups are far more tanky because of infinite stacking. If zos prioritized a functional stat system rework, we wouldnt have these massive meta swings every few months.

Ahh right, currently you can slot up to 12 CC abilities if so desired, maybe 15 based on sets (Not currently preset per champ like League, though that could be something of consideration given they're talking about preset skills), would definitely need to be per person. But I do think that global CC immunity from Break-free is problematic (But likely the easiest for networking).

Deimus

I guess giving each class a targeted hard cc, soft cc, mobility skill, and execute in their class kit beyond that no idea.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

From their statement they said all "classes will have PvP-specific skills"

There are a few ways of interpreting this:

1. Zos makes all new skills solely for pvp. Unlikely, but would be alot of work.
2. Zos makes new rules for skills. Hots&Dots wont stack, Heals may not cross out of group, Some AoE's may be capped, Some skills may have increasing cost ramps.
3. Zos bans certain skills

Id bet that they go #2 since it will barely impact most players. Zerglings who are casting into a 50man void wont be able to tell. Solo/smallman players may just need a morph change. Ballgroups will now be softcapped and wont sit with 12x every BIS hot/buff in the game.

#2 would 100% make it the most popular campaign and get the most players to return to the game. If they really want 2014 levels of Cyrodiil and more money that's the move.

Iriidius

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

So you suggest solo players should be stunnable immediately after breaking free so they are stunned non stop without ever having control over their character. Seems fair to not even let outnumbered players control their characters and kill players that cant defend themself,
There is cooldown on stunning, it is just on stunned target and not on stunner.
There is nothing problematic with stunning abilities not having a cooldown, fossilize spamming players one by one is not very effektive nor is spamming aoe stuns on players stun immune after first cast.

1vX is nearly extinct and the less 1vXer there are left the more haters hate them denying their right to exist and want to extinct them. Most 1vXer do only enter Cyrodiil with group if at all now. Only players with no friends available and masochist play solo.

Iriidius

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

Overall tankiness of 1vX builds is Only high compared to the uncompetitive players they fight when played by a competitive player but compared to other competitive build types they are not that tanky and annoying to fight.



Duelling builds are maybe less survivable in 1vX than 1vX builds but in duell they are harder to kill as they keep you in defense with high pressure and heal also have higher
Permablock tanks are much tankier than 1vXer and can tank 20 players without LoSing.
Healers are usually also tankier than 1vXer as they dont need to kill anyone.
Warden are already tanky 1vXer alone but as Smallscaler group with crosshealing they become so much tankier than any 1vXer.
Ballgroupbuilds are maybe easy to kill but they are never alone and in ballgroup are much tankier than same or even multiple times the number of 1vXers.

Gankers are usually squishy but that does not help you much because you cant attack them because outside of oneshoting you they are not there.
Bombers are easy kill if you find them as they are not build for it but usually you wont and they can kill much larger groups than 1vXer and althought they dont annoy me they annoy zerglings.

NotPvPer and Zerglings use all kinds of trashbuilds or PvE builds therefore many of them are easy to kill in equal numbers but Zerglings .
Zerglings also often use permablocktank, healer or ganker(dd) builds.
There are also professional zerglingbuilds intended to more effektively Xv1 players running away or actively defending themselves and not die against outnumbered players/1vXer/bomber even when failing to avoid their burst.

Avran_Sylt

Iriidius wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

So you suggest solo players should be stunnable immediately after breaking free so they are stunned non stop without ever having control over their character. Seems fair to not even let outnumbered players control their characters and kill players that cant defend themself,
There is cooldown on stunning, it is just on stunned target and not on stunner.
There is nothing problematic with stunning abilities not having a cooldown, fossilize spamming players one by one is not very effektive nor is spamming aoe stuns on players stun immune after first cast.

1vX is nearly extinct and the less 1vXer there are left the more haters hate them denying their right to exist and want to extinct them. Most 1vXer do only enter Cyrodiil with group if at all now. Only players with no friends available and masochist play solo.

Immediately? Likely not. about 1s or so of Global CC immunity to give them time to block or roll-dodge any upcoming attacks after Break-free.

But the 7s of CC immunity is apparently too generous of a window that players can slot enough resource sustain sets/abilities to maintain near permanent sustain while still being able to output lethal damage bursts. (Likely a combo of both proc and sustain).

If players wanted to increase a reduced global CC window, I can see them using sets/gear/skills to amplify that at the expense of other stats. But 7s base is too long.

Avran_Sylt

Iriidius wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Cooldowns. That's what I read, anyway.

Probably.

There's something problematic with stunning abilities having no cooldown. Since you then need to balance that in some form so you don't have a player pressing the stun button on another player for an hour. (Which we have with the CC immunity).

But the current CC immunity is global against all players, and not player dependent.

Making it player dependent could be a method to address the overall tankiness of 1vX builds. But that might be more resource intensive.

Like a game with league, it has no CC immunity (outside of specific skills, usually ults), and as such CC can be stacked and used for lockdown on hyper-carries.

Overall tankiness of 1vX builds is Only high compared to the uncompetitive players they fight when played by a competitive player but compared to other competitive build types they are not that tanky and annoying to fight.



Duelling builds are maybe less survivable in 1vX than 1vX builds but in duell they are harder to kill as they keep you in defense with high pressure and heal also have higher
Permablock tanks are much tankier than 1vXer and can tank 20 players without LoSing.
Healers are usually also tankier than 1vXer as they dont need to kill anyone.
Warden are already tanky 1vXer alone but as Smallscaler group with crosshealing they become so much tankier than any 1vXer.
Ballgroupbuilds are maybe easy to kill but they are never alone and in ballgroup are much tankier than same or even multiple times the number of 1vXers.

Gankers are usually squishy but that does not help you much because you cant attack them because outside of oneshoting you they are not there.
Bombers are easy kill if you find them as they are not build for it but usually you wont and they can kill much larger groups than 1vXer and althought they dont annoy me they annoy zerglings.

NotPvPer and Zerglings use all kinds of trashbuilds or PvE builds therefore many of them are easy to kill in equal numbers but Zerglings .
Zerglings also often use permablocktank, healer or ganker(dd) builds.
There are also professional zerglingbuilds intended to more effektively Xv1 players running away or actively defending themselves and not die against outnumbered players/1vXer/bomber even when failing to avoid their burst.

My ire regarding resource sustain is mostly targeted at perma-block/heal tanks.

That being said, when it comes to LoS and the 7s of CC immunity base break-free provides, I'd say it's a tad too long at providing easy damage avoidance through targeting interruptions in places like resource node keeps. Especially given how much faster players have gotten.

LittlePinkDot

I don't know why people here are talking like the change has anything to do with class balance or unkillable tanks or anything like that.

They specifically said its because of population caps. There's too many calculations on the server to have good performance with anymore that we already have. Any for alot of people there's still too much lag.
They said they only want 1 campaign and they want everyone who wants to play to be able to play at the same time. The only way I see they could do that is if they heavily simplify the combat. I wouldn't be surprised if they just get rid of buffing and just have all the buffs on in Cyrodiil all the time so there's none of those timed calculations going on causing lag.
It might even be 1 bar only so no bar swapping.

It sounds like it will be very simplified. Every character that's the same class will play exactly the same.
It will be like ESO Call of Duty/ Destiny 2