I read the announcement and it sounds to me like ESO is heading into Maintenance Mode

moderatelyfatman

Hi All,

So I've read the announcement and I'm giving my 2 cents as to why I think we're heading into Maintenance Mode.

Previously, when ZOS promised us new dungeons at the end of Q1 and Q3 we got new dungeons at the end of Q1 and Q3. Likewise, with a new Chapter, we knew we were getting a new overland zone and trial at the end of Q2.

My main concern is that everything they have stated in their release has no specific due date which means can be delayed indefinitely with various excuses. We've seen this already happen in 2023 and 2024 with Q3/4 dedicated towards performance and QoL updates. Will these changes arrive in 2025 or be cut and pasted every year much like the 'Year of Performance' that happened in 2017 and then again in 2018, 2019 and 2020 (I'm no longer sure which years now because I've stopped listening). They can literally use the excuse 'We're still working on it' to deliver absolutely nothing for the next 5-10 years.

I suspect the only thing we're going to get in 2025 is the overland difficulty setting. They can do it fairly easily by making a variation of the Battlespirit buff from PvP. Then again, given all the issues with Battlespirit and item sets, who knows?

Updating visuals and graphics from skills and revamping old zones could be done but we haven't seen a single image of this which suggests they haven't started yet. Once again, not 2025 for any significant changes.

What sets off my Skatole detector the most is the comments about a separate set of skills for PvP. I remember reading somewhere that since the game still supported PS4 consoles, they had to switch to Account Wide Achievements to add Tales of Tribute. Matt Firor also admitted that it took them 2 years to free up enough memory to add the arcanist class. I'm not convinced that ZOS have the resources to be able to do a complete rewrite of the skills in every class in the game for PvP purposes when most MMOs that do this (e.g. GW2, BDO) have done this as part of their core design. Given how heavily dependent PvP has become on proc sets, ZOS will also have to write as set of PvP rules for nearly every proc set in the game.

Bear in mind that as someone who loves this game, I dearly wish to be proven wrong by ZOS. However, given their track record so far...

shadyjane62

I too am in maintenance mode. Gathering heartwood is my main job now.

RomanRex

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I too am in maintenance mode. Gathering heartwood is my main job now.

you’ll need a craft bag to store those in…

Maitsukas

If you want a recent example of a maintenance mode, take a look at TES: Legends.

No significant changes to that game since December, 2019, only the servers are kept up until January 30, 2025, which means it will be completely shut down, with no option to play it offline.

Unfadingsilence

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Hi All,

So I've read the announcement and I'm giving my 2 cents as to why I think we're heading into Maintenance Mode.

Previously, when ZOS promised us new dungeons at the end of Q1 and Q3 we got new dungeons at the end of Q1 and Q3. Likewise, with a new Chapter, we knew we were getting a new overland zone and trial at the end of Q2.

My main concern is that everything they have stated in their release has no specific due date which means can be delayed indefinitely with various excuses. We've seen this already happen in 2023 and 2024 with Q3/4 dedicated towards performance and QoL updates. Will these changes arrive in 2025 or be cut and pasted every year much like the 'Year of Performance' that happened in 2017 and then again in 2018, 2019 and 2020 (I'm no longer sure which years now because I've stopped listening). They can literally use the excuse 'We're still working on it' to deliver absolutely nothing for the next 5-10 years.

I suspect the only thing we're going to get in 2025 is the overland difficulty setting. They can do it fairly easily by making a variation of the Battlespirit buff from PvP. Then again, given all the issues with Battlespirit and item sets, who knows?

Updating visuals and graphics from skills and revamping old zones could be done but we haven't seen a single image of this which suggests they haven't started yet. Once again, not 2025 for any significant changes.

What sets off my Skatole detector the most is the comments about a separate set of skills for PvP. I remember reading somewhere that since the game still supported PS4 consoles, they had to switch to Account Wide Achievements to add Tales of Tribute. Matt Firor also admitted that it took them 2 years to free up enough memory to add the arcanist class. I'm not convinced that ZOS have the resources to be able to do a complete rewrite of the skills in every class in the game for PvP purposes when most MMOs that do this (e.g. GW2, BDO) have done this as part of their core design. Given how heavily dependent PvP has become on proc sets, ZOS will also have to write as set of PvP rules for nearly every proc set in the game.

Bear in mind that as someone who loves this game, I dearly wish to be proven wrong by ZOS. However, given their track record so far...

Everyone who plays this game loves this game i play on all platforms all servers over 50k hours played and have spent over 10k real money on this game and 100% ZOS needed to go into maintenance mode 8 years ago this is a much needed change and looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Cooperharley

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

BlueRaven

It’s 100% targeting “maintenance mode”.

The game went from giant boxed collector sets, to “bite sized” content.

Maybe it’s not all the way at “maintenance mode” yet, but it’s certainly crashing into it soon.

That letter was not reassuring at all.

Parrot1986

I don’t necessarily think it’s in/going to maintenance mode but understand people’s point on that.
I think they need a really clear roadmap of activities for the next 2 years for me to show what’s planned.

“Content” recently has been an overload of ticket events where we just do old content for tickets which is really poor.

Taking away chapters is fine but I want to see a roadmap with story releases, dungeon trials and arena releases event tests etc. still having ticket events is fine but layering them with new stuff is what’s needed.

Wow had this issue with content draught ever expansion and have given 2 year roadmap for content, events and tests like plunderstorm battle royal etc. that gives a much clearer view of what’s coming and puts people at ease a bit more.

In terms of the other things, overland content difficulty is fine but subjective and difficulty = more health isn’t the answer so interesting to see what they do.

PvP performance has been a focus forever but never really changes so I just don’t believe them on that if I’m honest. Far too many failures to trust them but hopefully they do fix it.

I’m all up for trying new experiments and a great way to see if things work without overly committing and allowing stuff to fail and moving on.

Personally I want a reason to do content, I pvp mainly now out of boredom as nothing pve is worth it. Dungeons are way too easy and I really want a scaling difficulty that allows groups to artificially increase the challenge and give me a reason to run them. So people can do the current versions but try and push harder versions. Basically like mythic+ in wow minus the toxic IO Scoring or IAs arcs.

Doing pledges was a great daily activity but now I rarely ever do them as have all the sets collected, monster sets collected and why bother running content which used to be challenging but is now mostly nerfed to the ground and pointless.

moderatelyfatman

Cooperharley wrote: »

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

If CD Projekt Red or Larian made this comment, I'd take it at face value. But with ESO, the only time when things get delivered reliably and in a (mostly) working state is when it has a specific due date (e.g. Dungeons, Chapters and additional zones).

What you have quoted is vague in its scope and has no due date. Much like improved performance, this is the sort of thing that can be promised for years without ever delivering. Think about hybridisation and how it has been left unfinished and ask yourself what are the odds we'll get PvP fixed?

I will happily admit I'm wrong and change my mind if I see proof to the contrary, but these changes look far more like promises made to placate and stall an angry player base rather than something we're going to get.

spartaxoxo

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

katanagirl1

I’m just afraid too many things will be changed and it won’t be the game that I enjoy playing anymore.

Cooperharley

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

If CD Projekt Red or Larian made this comment, I'd take it at face value. But with ESO, the only time when things get delivered reliably and in a (mostly) working state is when it has a specific due date (e.g. Dungeons, Chapters and additional zones).

What you have quoted is vague in its scope and has no due date. Much like improved performance, this is the sort of thing that can be promised for years without ever delivering. Think about hybridisation and how it has been left unfinished and ask yourself what are the odds we'll get PvP fixed?

I will happily admit I'm wrong and change my mind if I see proof to the contrary, but these changes look far more like promises made to placate and stall an angry player base rather than something we're going to get.

It’s absolutely vague because it’s the studio director’s letter at the end of the year. I expect to hear actual specifics in Q1 about what we’ll see and when, but to know that they are at some point targeting that stuff is better than an empty chapter system like we’ve had for the past 3-4 years in my book.

Change isn’t always good, but this change in my book is needed and looks good from the outside. We can’t form any specific opinions on HOW good yet, but it looks good to me.

Luke_Flamesword

"Maintenance Mode" is overused lately. This is not it, because they are doing new content and probably they will continue with it for years at least. There is too much money from ESO to just abandon it.

But!

There is trend to make less and less content. In previous letter ZOS promised bigger chapters and more new features and QoL changes as replacement of Q3 dungeons and Q4 zone. It was a lie. We had smallest chapter yet, typical Q3 base update but without dungeons (Home Tours is such a small feature, with so BASIC funcionality, that was normally small part of update not, main attraction) and just a underwhelming refresh of already existing feature (BG) in Q4.

They didn't apologise for that, but they pretend that's perfect year and everything is exactly as should be. As customer I don't believe anymore in their promises and I have every reason to believe that new strategy is just next step in this direction of doing less and less content.

spartaxoxo

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

"Maintenance Mode" is overused lately. This is not it, because they are doing new content and probably they will continue with it for years at least. There is too much money from ESO to just abandon it.

But!

There is trend to make less and less content. In previous letter ZOS promised bigger chapters and more new features and QoL changes as replacement of Q3 dungeons and Q4 zone. It was a lie. We had smallest chapter yet, typical Q3 base update but without dungeons (Home Tours is such a small feature, with so BASIC funcionality, that was normally small part of update not, main attraction) and just a underwhelming refresh of already existing feature (BG) in Q4.

They didn't apologise for that, but they pretend that's perfect year and everything is exactly as should be. As customer I don't believe anymore in their promises and I have every reason to believe that new strategy is just next step in this direction of doing less and less content.

They had announced they were cutting Q3 dungeons in favor of bug fixes and QOL changes 2 years before home tours. The previous year had been group finder. And that's exactly what we got. QOL features are generally small features intended to improve gameplay but not player power. Home Tours, Group Finder, and the all-in-one attunable crafting stations are all QOL.

In their studio letter they also had stated their goal was to reduce the number of quests in favor of bigger systems at the end of the year. They didn't promise bigger chapters, they promised the opposite. The quest quality and Q4 Big systems were supposed to make up for it. Those were Infinite Archive and the new Battlegrounds.

Valion

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Everyone who plays this game loves this game i play on all platforms all servers over 50k hours played and have spent over 10k real money on this game and 100% ZOS needed to go into maintenance mode 8 years ago this is a much needed change and looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

I doubt you know what maintenance mode means to an online game..?
It means the cow gets no more gras, less water, but every drop of milk is pressed out until she drops dead.

CatoUnchained

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

Cellithor

Save us the melodrama. The game is doing fine and the only people who think it isn't are the people who apparently hate this game so much that they have thousands of hours, every trifecta completed, and 5 separate accounts with year long ESO plus subs on all of them.

Live service games have been moving toward the "seasons" model for years and all this announcement tells me is that ESO is following the trend. The name of the game is extracting more success from less content being delivered. Shareholders want to see that profit margin get wider and wider.

So no, I don't think the game is in trouble or heading toward "maintenance mode." I think it's headed toward "min max for corporate profits" mode like every other live service game out there. I do hope that they actually commit to enhancing the content that's already there since they have promised to deliver less new content at any give time moving forward.

Valion

Cellithor wrote: »

The name of the game is extracting more success from less content being delivered. Shareholders want to see that profit margin get wider and wider.

And that's not even ironically speaking, is it?
Reducing the staff, not re-investing in infrastructure and selling less content for more money -
how would that be any good for the customer?
Or for all those people that do and did provide us with these great games?
I am not saying this is what's going to happen, only because it happens everywhere else.
But the thing is we also don't want this to happen, I believe.

I am not baiting, I hope. But this needs to be said.

sarahthes

Cooperharley wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

I didn't read it like that at all. We've been asking for them to switch it up and change that.

Overland difficulty increase
Improving visuals in old zones and textures moving forward
New stories to experience throughout the year
More experimentation
A change up in pvp, specifically cyrodiil, to improve pop caps
Seasons w/ cool new rewards
New difficult zones like OG craglorn

I'm confused as to how that's going into maintenance mode. They're little checking off most of the stuff we've been asking for?

If CD Projekt Red or Larian made this comment, I'd take it at face value. But with ESO, the only time when things get delivered reliably and in a (mostly) working state is when it has a specific due date (e.g. Dungeons, Chapters and additional zones).

What you have quoted is vague in its scope and has no due date. Much like improved performance, this is the sort of thing that can be promised for years without ever delivering. Think about hybridisation and how it has been left unfinished and ask yourself what are the odds we'll get PvP fixed?

I will happily admit I'm wrong and change my mind if I see proof to the contrary, but these changes look far more like promises made to placate and stall an angry player base rather than something we're going to get.

It’s absolutely vague because it’s the studio director’s letter at the end of the year. I expect to hear actual specifics in Q1 about what we’ll see and when, but to know that they are at some point targeting that stuff is better than an empty chapter system like we’ve had for the past 3-4 years in my book.

Change isn’t always good, but this change in my book is needed and looks good from the outside. We can’t form any specific opinions on HOW good yet, but it looks good to me.

They told us we aren't getting specifics until Q2.

Cellithor

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

CatoUnchained

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

Cellithor

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

What concrete data have you gathered regarding historical and current trends to show that player retention is the "opposite of fine"? Anecdotes from content creators and/or your buddies don't count as a trend for the entire game population.

CatoUnchained

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

What concrete data have you gathered regarding historical and current trends to show that player retention is the "opposite of fine"? Anecdotes from content creators and/or your buddies don't count as a trend for the entire game population.

Are you new to ESO? I've been playing since 2014.

Cellithor

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

What concrete data have you gathered regarding historical and current trends to show that player retention is the "opposite of fine"? Anecdotes from content creators and/or your buddies don't count as a trend for the entire game population.

Are you new to ESO? I've been playing since 2014.

And? My point and question both still stand.

CatoUnchained

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

What concrete data have you gathered regarding historical and current trends to show that player retention is the "opposite of fine"? Anecdotes from content creators and/or your buddies don't count as a trend for the entire game population.

Are you new to ESO? I've been playing since 2014.

And? My point and question both still stand.

The mass exodus began with U35. That was in 2022. Now, 2 years later, ZOS announces what is essentially an end to significant new content releases.

My point still stands unchallenged and is supported by a plethora of evidence. If you don't see it, that's on you.

disky

Initially I felt the same, but after seeing their ideas presented I can't disagree more. It actually seems like they're listening to a lot of the issues people have had with the game, major issues which require a major shift in development, and they're pushing headlong into addressing them.

Frankly, I don't think we need more zones, especially if they're as formulaic as what we've been receiving for so long. There is so much that can be done to improve the zones we have now and to make them more fun and interesting to exist in, should the devs choose to put the effort in, and it feels like that's the tack they're taking. The fact that they've mentioned a visual update to base game is evidence of this choice as well, as well as the overland difficulty changes they've announced.

This is some of the most exciting news I've seen from ZOS in a long time, in my opinion.

Northwold

I read it as they are finally going to stop adding layer upon layer of new content without ever dealing with the underlying guts of the game and, freed from the chapter cycle, are going to be able to deal with the game *as a whole* in a way they never have been able to before.

That is a good, good thing and I note (which was worrying me early on in the letter) that they have not said they will be abandoning ever introducing new zones.

Soarora

People have already been crying maintenance mode before this. But also, is it so bad for ZOS to give us less content? I feel like it’s a win because we may get content more worth the price we pay and/or players can spend their money elsewhere.

I of course want more dungeons but I think also if dungeons were given scores like trials I’d be okay with less dungeons.

Jaraal

The only real difference between the past 10 years and the coming years is that with this statement, ZOS has given themselves a pass to no longer have to meet prearranged deadlines. By creating open ended "seasons" instead of chapters with due dates, they can stretch new content creation out for as long as they want to before publishing it.

The problem with this is that until now, ZOS made money by preselling chapters. And since that will no longer be a thing, the question remains: how will they be making up for that lost revenue? That is the one thing they neglected to mention in the Studio Director's letter.

colossalvoids

Northwold wrote: »

I read it as they are finally going to stop adding layer upon layer of new content without ever dealing with the underlying guts of the game and, freed from the chapter cycle, are going to be able to deal with the game *as a whole* in a way they never have been able to before.

That was my takeaway also, hopefully that's the case here.

Northwold

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Cellithor wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Maintenance mode does not invest in new players.

What "mode" invests in player retention? You know, what is ESO doing to keep veteran end game players sticking around?

I'm sure player retention is fine. You have to remember that any game is going to focus their efforts on the new and/or casual player because veteran end gamers make up a very small portion of the player base realistically. The veteran end gamer - in any live service game - is always going to be completing the available content much faster than the developer can create more. The developer is always going to prioritize content that is relevant to the majority of their players, the new and casual players.

It's a tale as old as time. The loudest complainers are the top 5% wondering why a developer doesn't pump content into the game specifically for that 5% just as fast as those 5% exhaust the content that's already there. It's not unique to ESO by any means.

Player retention is the opposite of fine for the last few years, and the problem is getting worse in a hurry. Why do you think ESO is releasing less and less content now days? When the vet players and content creators move on it's because they see the signs and it's not long after (2-3 years typically) for the game to shutter it's doors.

I imagine they're releasing less content because it became apparent, for example, that the new player experience was disastrous and players were playing for two days and then permanently abandoning the game. They needed developer time to address that -- time which they did not have because it was all going to satisfying other things.

An MMO cannot survive based purely on satisfying the desires of end game players. There aren't enough of them and at a certain point their desires can actually begin to push the wrong way, if not carefully managed, for attracting anyone else.