DK should be banned from BG, or Nerfed, like Nightblade and Sorc.

Avran_Sylt

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

the1andonlyskwex

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

Ingenon

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

Avran_Sylt

Ingenon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

I'm not entirely against such a mentality, but when it comes to such a nebulous concept (that is to say, a broad range of interactions) such as freakin' PvP, I call [snip]. At least given we can't freely respec our chars to different classes at the same level. Even then, at what cost.

And I'm not calling for a rebalance of the game. just that classes get nerfed just like the other classes and not get special treatment (Why do sorcs and NB's have their abilities nerfed against such objectives?). [snip]

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Avran_Sylt

Ingenon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

Actually, I suppose my issue is more that the inter-personal interactions are at a disadvantage. I'd not be too concerned if it were just my problem with choosing a class against an NPC environment, but this is about being queued against other players.

If at any rate, then just make it so that some classes can be eligible for PvP game-modes, and others cannot. Handled by the system. This would firmly dictate to players who can and who cannot partake in PvP. Class-wise, at least.

Avran_Sylt

Ingenon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

To take an extreme, say I want to play a stealthy build while running a Relic. Is that at all possible? I cannot use stealth while holding the relic, I have to initiate a delayed interaction a the relic source, I'm visible on THE COMPASS.

You might be able to say that you could be stealthy to try ang get to the point of attempting to grab the objective, but you cannot say you can be once you have it. It is not a supported playstyle. At this point I'm picking less at an overall class issue, and more of an overall lack of diversity issue (That BG's has as a whole).

Some classes might be built towards one thing, or another, and thus, segregate them into separate queues in BGs so that their skills don't need to be considered too harshly in the overall PvP department.

Avran_Sylt

Ingenon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

In fact, I did make a mention of the idea of class segregation in BG's

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/670507/should-classes-be-segregated-in-bg-queues

Given your response on this thread, I'd love to hear your opinion.

the1andonlyskwex

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

the1andonlyskwex

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

I don't disagree, but this is just more reason to standardize and segregate PvP from PvE. Maybe such that PvP has no classes, or that all players who play PvP must choose the Dragonknight Class. (In essence the same, but easier, just making PvP restricted to a given character class instead of needing to rebalance things)

the1andonlyskwex

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

I don't disagree, but this is just more reason to standardize and segregate PvP from PvE. Maybe such that PvP has no classes, or that all players who play PvP must choose the Dragonknight Class. (In essence the same, but easier, just making PvP restricted to a given character class instead of needing to rebalance things)

Terrible idea is terrible. If you want everyone to be the same, don't play an MMORPG.

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

I don't disagree, but this is just more reason to standardize and segregate PvP from PvE. Maybe such that PvP has no classes, or that all players who play PvP must choose the Dragonknight Class. (In essence the same, but easier, just making PvP restricted to a given character class instead of needing to rebalance things)

Terrible idea is terrible. If you want everyone to be the same, don't play an MMORPG.

Then why make an objective game-mode of a general concept (PvP), exclusively favoring a certain playstyle?

the1andonlyskwex

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

I don't disagree, but this is just more reason to standardize and segregate PvP from PvE. Maybe such that PvP has no classes, or that all players who play PvP must choose the Dragonknight Class. (In essence the same, but easier, just making PvP restricted to a given character class instead of needing to rebalance things)

Terrible idea is terrible. If you want everyone to be the same, don't play an MMORPG.

Then why make an objective game-mode of a general concept (PvP), exclusively favoring a certain playstyle?

It doesn't. A winning team relies on multiple play styles working together. Sure, a stealth nightblade might not be a good ball carrier, but they're still great at killing and defending ball carriers, which are the things that most people in any given match need to be doing anyway.

Vonnegut2506

Oh good, another nerf a class post. I never get tired of these.

valenwood_vegan

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Oh good, another nerf a class post. I never get tired of these.

ikr? Something killed me, it has to be deleted!

They should really just make pvp light and heavy attacks only, no skills, no sets, no classes... then it would be balanced.

Avran_Sylt

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What are you talking about? Stealth and (especially) mobility work great in BGs.

?

Unless you're talking about specific move-speed % increases (which I'm unsure as to why they affect Relic Runners, as it's contradictory the removal of mobility skill useage while holding a relic), you cannot use any mobility skills while holding a Relic.

You also cannot use stealth while performing any interaction with BG objectives: Stealth cannot be used while holding a relic, nor can you capture a point while in stealth.

All objective actions must be performed while obvious to the other team.

And how much time do you actually spend doing those things? Almost none.

Shadowy Disguise and Streak are two of the most powerful PvP skills in the game, even in BGs. Sure, they can't be used when interacting with objectives in certain ways, but that doesn't make them useless, or even below average. Use them to get to objectives (or otherwise gain tactical advantage) and kill your opponents, then don't worry about them in the limited times when they're not allowed.

You're not wrong, but when "Everything is balanced", wouldn't the class that can use all of their abilities and class passive without restriction come out on top? Especially when such a class can be used and is designed around the prevention of death on an objective, almost tank-like?

To be frank I've played a lot of BG's this past week, and It's almost all DK's. To an absurdly annoying degree.

Balance has to cover lots of different content and play styles. Sorcerers and Nightblades who rely on those restricted skills for survivability may not be the best chaosball carriers, but they're also better than other classes at tons of other things. ESO certainly has balance issues, but Shadowy Disguise and Streak not working while holding relics isn't anywhere near the top of the list (and, if anything, is probably making balance better, not worse).

I don't disagree, but this is just more reason to standardize and segregate PvP from PvE. Maybe such that PvP has no classes, or that all players who play PvP must choose the Dragonknight Class. (In essence the same, but easier, just making PvP restricted to a given character class instead of needing to rebalance things)

Terrible idea is terrible. If you want everyone to be the same, don't play an MMORPG.

Then why make an objective game-mode of a general concept (PvP), exclusively favoring a certain playstyle?

It doesn't. A winning team relies on multiple play styles working together. Sure, a stealth nightblade might not be a good ball carrier, but they're still great at killing and defending ball carriers, which are the things that most people in any given match need to be doing anyway.

A winning team mostly relies on good defenses, strong heals, sticking together, and focusing the weakest target. Not stealth. A stealthblade is also hampered by the majority of their hard hitting attacks having telegraphs that a player paying attention to (visually and audibly), can avoid. (Or they're already just block-casting self-heals), And there's also popping a stealth detect pot to make sure they can't sneak up on you.

Against new players, sure, stealth can be decent, but not against decent players.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Oh good, another nerf a class post. I never get tired of these.

ikr? Something killed me, it has to be deleted!

They should really just make pvp light and heavy attacks only, no skills, no sets, no classes... then it would be balanced.

PvP is mostly about brawling. Very little else (Except popping undergeared players as they move to the objective, but IMO there's kinda of an issue with gear-access in PvP). All objectives are out in the open. And DK has a lovely passive in that of Battle-roar where if they get burst they can turnaround and go "No U" and heal back a ton.

Hmm. Though maybe they could make Battleroar a passive affixed to Battle-spirit?

Oblivion_Protocol

Avran, I’m going to explain this in the simple terms that I think everyone else is missing.

Cloak is an ability that turns you (and potentially) whatever you’re holding completely invisible. In a game mode where the objective is to find and take a thing, turning it and yourself invisible is broken and unfair. Imagine playing football, but one person can take the ball, turn invisible, and still run up the score while invisible. Does that sound like a fun game?

Streak is an ability that allows a Sorc to traverse the field faster than anyone or anything else in a few seconds. A practiced Sorc can literally be on the other side of the map faster than you could type ‘nerf Streak now’. In a game mode where part of the objective is to take something from another player, moving around at a thousand miles per hour is fundamentally unfair. Imagine that same game of football, but instead of turning invisible, one player can literally teleport every second. Does that still sound like a fun game?

When balancing class abilities, the devs primarily look at combat situations. Once you introduce objective play that offers scenarios where those abilities give intrinsically and insurmountably unfair advantages, those abilities have to be altered or banned altogether.

And before you say “but DK abilities are unfair and therefore should be banned, too”, a reminder that I said intrinsically and insurmountably unfair, as in, it alters the game and you can’t stop it. Battle Roar doesn’t do jack but squat for any objective play, and you can always kill a DK. Maybe it’ll take a little longer, but you can do it. If there is some cracked DK player who racks up 30+ kills and goes unbeaten, they would probably do the same on the other six classes.

Avran_Sylt

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Avran, I’m going to explain this in the simple terms that I think everyone else is missing.

Cloak is an ability that turns you (and potentially) whatever you’re holding completely invisible. In a game mode where the objective is to find and take a thing, turning it and yourself invisible is broken and unfair. Imagine playing football, but one person can take the ball, turn invisible, and still run up the score while invisible. Does that sound like a fun game?

Streak is an ability that allows a Sorc to traverse the field faster than anyone or anything else in a few seconds. A practiced Sorc can literally be on the other side of the map faster than you could type ‘nerf Streak now’. In a game mode where part of the objective is to take something from another player, moving around at a thousand miles per hour is fundamentally unfair. Imagine that same game of football, but instead of turning invisible, one player can literally teleport every second. Does that still sound like a fun game?

When balancing class abilities, the devs primarily look at combat situations. Once you introduce objective play that offers scenarios where those abilities give intrinsically and insurmountably unfair advantages, those abilities have to be altered or banned altogether.

And before you say “but DK abilities are unfair and therefore should be banned, too”, a reminder that I said intrinsically and insurmountably unfair, as in, it alters the game and you can’t stop it. Battle Roar doesn’t do jack but squat for any objective play, and you can always kill a DK. Maybe it’ll take a little longer, but you can do it. If there is some cracked DK player who racks up 30+ kills and goes unbeaten, they would probably do the same on the other six classes.

You have detect pots, detection skills, snares, gap closers, and range. Did you know that AoE attacks can break players out of stealth? Caltrops can be useful for that.

Slot the abilities and use the tools given to you to combat such abilities like everyone else is expected to against the tools allowed by the other classes, don't just disable to skills because it'd be too much work to make them balanced.

Navaac223

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Avran, I’m going to explain this in the simple terms that I think everyone else is missing.

Cloak is an ability that turns you (and potentially) whatever you’re holding completely invisible. In a game mode where the objective is to find and take a thing, turning it and yourself invisible is broken and unfair. Imagine playing football, but one person can take the ball, turn invisible, and still run up the score while invisible. Does that sound like a fun game?

Streak is an ability that allows a Sorc to traverse the field faster than anyone or anything else in a few seconds. A practiced Sorc can literally be on the other side of the map faster than you could type ‘nerf Streak now’. In a game mode where part of the objective is to take something from another player, moving around at a thousand miles per hour is fundamentally unfair. Imagine that same game of football, but instead of turning invisible, one player can literally teleport every second. Does that still sound like a fun game?

When balancing class abilities, the devs primarily look at combat situations. Once you introduce objective play that offers scenarios where those abilities give intrinsically and insurmountably unfair advantages, those abilities have to be altered or banned altogether.

And before you say “but DK abilities are unfair and therefore should be banned, too”, a reminder that I said intrinsically and insurmountably unfair, as in, it alters the game and you can’t stop it. Battle Roar doesn’t do jack but squat for any objective play, and you can always kill a DK. Maybe it’ll take a little longer, but you can do it. If there is some cracked DK player who racks up 30+ kills and goes unbeaten, they would probably do the same on the other six classes.

You have detect pots, detection skills, snares, gap closers, and range. Did you know that AoE attacks can break players out of stealth? Caltrops can be useful for that.

Slot the abilities and use the tools given to you to combat such abilities like everyone else is expected to against the tools allowed by the other classes, don't just disable to skills because it'd be too much work to make them balanced.

Some of us don't have the luxury of having flex spots. I can't make room for a gap closer or a detect skill on my stamcro, neither can I unslot my weapon damage pot. Funny bar space or potion slots didn't cross your mind, as if you were playing one of the best classes in pvp..

Anyways, please consider the implications of what you're saying : you would need to design your build around nighblades and sorcs. I'm pretty sure the balance issues are already obvious enough, we don't have to make the "play nb/magsorc or get ***" update

Avran_Sylt

Navaac223 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Avran, I’m going to explain this in the simple terms that I think everyone else is missing.

Cloak is an ability that turns you (and potentially) whatever you’re holding completely invisible. In a game mode where the objective is to find and take a thing, turning it and yourself invisible is broken and unfair. Imagine playing football, but one person can take the ball, turn invisible, and still run up the score while invisible. Does that sound like a fun game?

Streak is an ability that allows a Sorc to traverse the field faster than anyone or anything else in a few seconds. A practiced Sorc can literally be on the other side of the map faster than you could type ‘nerf Streak now’. In a game mode where part of the objective is to take something from another player, moving around at a thousand miles per hour is fundamentally unfair. Imagine that same game of football, but instead of turning invisible, one player can literally teleport every second. Does that still sound like a fun game?

When balancing class abilities, the devs primarily look at combat situations. Once you introduce objective play that offers scenarios where those abilities give intrinsically and insurmountably unfair advantages, those abilities have to be altered or banned altogether.

And before you say “but DK abilities are unfair and therefore should be banned, too”, a reminder that I said intrinsically and insurmountably unfair, as in, it alters the game and you can’t stop it. Battle Roar doesn’t do jack but squat for any objective play, and you can always kill a DK. Maybe it’ll take a little longer, but you can do it. If there is some cracked DK player who racks up 30+ kills and goes unbeaten, they would probably do the same on the other six classes.

You have detect pots, detection skills, snares, gap closers, and range. Did you know that AoE attacks can break players out of stealth? Caltrops can be useful for that.

Slot the abilities and use the tools given to you to combat such abilities like everyone else is expected to against the tools allowed by the other classes, don't just disable to skills because it'd be too much work to make them balanced.

Some of us don't have the luxury of having flex spots. I can't make room for a gap closer or a detect skill on my stamcro, neither can I unslot my weapon damage pot. Funny bar space or potion slots didn't cross your mind, as if you were playing one of the best classes in pvp..

Anyways, please consider the implications of what you're saying : you would need to design your build around nighblades and sorcs. I'm pretty sure the balance issues are already obvious enough, we don't have to make the "play nb/magsorc or get ***" update

Oh no, bar space did cross my mind. It does quite a lot actually. I run an Oakensoul build so I'm dealing with very little free real-estate.

For example: if I'm a backline damage dealer build I'm running Cloak (Defensive dodge/disengage)/Elemental Weapon(part of sustained burst)/Merciless(Burst/stat stacking)/Lethal Arrow(Sustained Burst)/Malevolent Offering (sustain because of stupid hybrid scaling of WP/SD and also support healing) and Ice Comet (Burst). I could slot some detect pots but I don't want to spend the money so I just use pots I get from pugging as a tank/overworld for ult gain and some here and there resource regain.

It'd be nice to have caltrops to act as zone denial against other NB's (especially those that run detect pots themselves where I'm just stuck twiddling my thumbs as they sit in cloak, being able to detect me too even if I enter cloak), but then my periodic burst damage to break through healer output suffers (If I replace snipe from Snipe/LA/Elemental rotation)/I can't heal myself as well or heal teamates as well (if I were to replace Malevolent)/Removing hybrid resource spending means I deal less sustained damage (if I removed Elemental weapon).

Without Oakensoul you should have MORE than enough space to add in utility with 5 more slots. I just deal with the fact I can't slot all the needed utility given how much of it Oakensoul gives me with not needing to constantly cycle rotations on buff uptimes.

If I get caught out, I'm more or less dead-in-the-water, but hey that's how that build works and I'm not too bent out of shape about getting got. Just annoys me to no end where Battle roar just feeds into the basic concepts of resource sustain in BG's and is a staple of the DK class but other classes have their unique identity hamstrung.

MincMincMinc

.......Laughs in acuity warden being better than any other class

Avran_Sylt

MincMincMinc wrote: »

.......Laughs in acuity warden being better than any other class

Is that because healstacking? Or using Shalks+Dizzy to pop undergeared players as you rotate around resource keep structures 2nd floor?

BXR_Lonestar

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

This is L2P man. A templar or a warden can be just as devastating in close quarters combat, but this is all going to be dictated on build and knowledge/skill of the player.

And the mobility/stealth classes are going to struggle a little bit in some of the BG matches, but that doesn't mean they can't function, you just need to learn the map and learn how you can use your abilities to your advantage in that map.

Avran_Sylt

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

This is L2P man. A templar or a warden can be just as devastating in close quarters combat, but this is all going to be dictated on build and knowledge/skill of the player.

And the mobility/stealth classes are going to struggle a little bit in some of the BG matches, but that doesn't mean they can't function, you just need to learn the map and learn how you can use your abilities to your advantage in that map.

I am trying to learn to play, and the more that I try to learn to play, the more and more it seems like sustain and resource return is king when it comes down to holding objectives (which is basically all PvP is).

Perhaps soon I'll fall into the crowd, make an Argonian DK, bash anyone else that tries to play anything but tanky attrition, and come to love ballgroups.

MincMincMinc

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

.......Laughs in acuity warden being better than any other class

Is that because healstacking? Or using Shalks+Dizzy to pop undergeared players as you rotate around resource keep structures 2nd floor?

Warden is just overtuned beyond belief for many reasons. It is without a doubt the top class by far.

---

Do you want guidance in pvp? Build theory help? Practically anyone can hit cp160 and slot crafted gear within a day or two of playing the game. Which will be highly competitive in pvp for any class.

It seems others already explained why being able to cloak and streak with the objectives would be bad.

As far as the "tank meta" feel free to complain to zos about how max stam/mag has lost its importance and lead to people stacking 40-50khp on every build. Sustain being so easy to get that people are instead stacking only damage sets+enchants+mundus. Pen being so accessible that people are hitting 25-30k pen and still being able to run more damage sets on top of that. Movement speed so high that players can move in and out of melee distance each second. Snare and root counterplay so bad that players prefer to spam roll instead..........Rant, rant, rant

Avran_Sylt

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

.......Laughs in acuity warden being better than any other class

Is that because healstacking? Or using Shalks+Dizzy to pop undergeared players as you rotate around resource keep structures 2nd floor?

Warden is just overtuned beyond belief for many reasons. It is without a doubt the top class by far.

---

Do you want guidance in pvp? Build theory help? Practically anyone can hit cp160 and slot crafted gear within a day or two of playing the game. Which will be highly competitive in pvp for any class.

It seems others already explained why being able to cloak and streak with the objectives would be bad.

As far as the "tank meta" feel free to complain to zos about how max stam/mag has lost its importance and lead to people stacking 40-50khp on every build. Sustain being so easy to get that people are instead stacking only damage sets+enchants+mundus. Pen being so accessible that people are hitting 25-30k pen and still being able to run more damage sets on top of that. Movement speed so high that players can move in and out of melee distance each second. Snare and root counterplay so bad that players prefer to spam roll instead..........Rant, rant, rant

.... No. Not really. I have a general idea of how I'd need to build, the skills I'd need to slot, and the groups I'd best join if I really just want to see numbers go up and see myself killing people mostly. But I like to play like a tankbuster. A sniper. One-pump-chump. I want to be able to take a target and make sure they don't survive, disregarding if I'm able to make an escape afterwards. But that's not really a thing anymore. And when it was, it was usually because it was a broken mechanic that also enabled such bursts against most targets with little investment. (What's up Caluurion/Snipe stuns from Stealth). (And even now, while I can generally "tankbust" healers, I still have a lot of survivability given ranged and the relative safety of my spam).

This is in general a bit of why my angst is targeted at DK's, who when in execute range can just pop flight or molten.

My guess is you'd say:

Potion of immovability with your given resource regain to set yourself up for you combo without being interrupted.
Tri-stat foods.
Tri-stat enchantments.
Some Bloodthirsty/Triune Jewelry enchantments.
Oblivion damage enchantment or poisons that target resource regeneration.
Make sure you've got a stun/fear. For setup and resource drain.
Make sure you've got an immobilization. For resource drain and bait into stuns.
Have some DoTs on your backbar/be sure to have skills slotted that give slotted bonuses.
Have something for roll-catching.
Figure out a decently damaging combo for you class. (In this case Nightblade Incap Merciless). The more abilities landing at once the better.
Wear damaging sets so you can leverage your resistance dominance against noobs so you can kill them using procs without them being able to make much of a dent in you.

Get in a group that runs supportive buff sets/cross heals. Stick to them, stack on crown, and dump ults when ordered to for the most amount of burst.

Be sure to leverage terrain for LoS and to prevent ranged attackers from being able to reliably hit you or stop cast-time abilities from reliably hitting.

Veinblood1965

Ingenon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

DK can take advantage of their class Identity in Battlegrounds, through their close combat superiority. But Nightblade or Sorcerers cannot take advantage of their subtlety or maneuverability in BGs given the mobility and stealth restrictions on interacting with objectives.

Pls disable Dragonknights in BG's.

Standard answer whenever anyone posts about another class/build being better than theirs in some activity:

"Play as you want" does not mean that your particular chosen class/build will be "best" at every activity in ESO (battlegrounds, infinite archive, veteran trials DPS, veteran trials tank, Cyrodiil 1vX PvP, whatever).

I suggest using seven of your character slots to create one of each class. That way, when you believe that another class is better at doing some ESO activity, you can play as that class.

I do not think that ZOS developers should rebalance the game whenever players post that another class that they are not playing needs nerfed because they think that another player is doing better than them.

Agreed, I recommend just rolling a DK in this instance. I do have to admit that the hardest class I come up against in PVP is DK followed by Sorc. They rarely can kill me but then I can't make a dent in their health. We usually just walk away. I did take my own advise and rolled a DK but it's not as fun as my NB.

Tommy_The_Gun

Agree, but I am kinda puzzled by the title... Sorc was nerfed ? When ? In what way ?
As far as I can tell they are still dominating in Cyro.

Avran_Sylt

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Agree, but I am kinda puzzled by the title... Sorc was nerfed ? When ? In what way ?
As far as I can tell they are still dominating in Cyro.

Eh, moreso the inability to use certain movement skills while holding a Relic.

They're still a class that seems their skill scaling's are based around a lack of crit, such that they get nice Amps when they both crit, and can proc CFrags.