Sypher's observations about the state of eso pvp....

Desiato · November 20

...are pretty much the same as every decent player:

- too much healing
- sustain is too easy
- duels and open world 1v1s are usually not enjoyable
- too tanky
- too much hp
- high ttk, long drawn out fights

He was playing in Cyro and doing as well as anyone, but didn't seem to be having fun, so instead he showed his audience how much more fun ESO PVP used to be by showing them his videos from 2015 and 2016. The gameplay was SO MUCH BETTER.

React · November 20

Yeah, pretty much every returning veteran has those exact observations. The game was so much better when you had to actually utilize combat mechanics, animation cancelling, heavy attacks, etc to perform well. Now you simply run a bunch of health and sustain, face tank and heal through everything, and go for bursts when you have ult.

This developer stream really highlighted some things for me. The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP" - meaning this is likely the type of gameplay they're okay with and want to encourage.

It's sad to see for veterans who enjoyed the fast-paced action combat where decisions and mechanical skill mattered, but I don't think we're ever going to see that make a comeback.

Stafford197 · November 20

I didn’t see the clip but those points sound accurate to me. Same sentiment as every active player who understands the PvP scene.

One small point I’d add is that this scene is the worst possible outcome of PvP because it has minimal room for gameplay mastery.

Back in the day you could play your favorite class, master your combos / survivability methods, and start to do extremely well. Sure certain specs were slightly too strong (a small nerf to Mag Sorc shield would’ve been fine) and some specs slightly too weak (Stam Sorc needed more identity) but overall the gameplay was tons of fun. Also no one was running 50k Health… you could defeat all players. The few people running super tanky builds were strictly supports who dealt zero damage.

I used to play tons of PvP back in the day! Some of the most fun PvP I’ve ever experienced. It’s a shame what the Combat Team has done.

Deimus · November 20

His face when they went up against the team that kept spamming RoA had me rolling. He got up and left for a bit after that one.

A guy who hasn't played the game in so long he didn't know what any of the battleground modes were noticed some of the pain points echoed here after playing again for a couple of hours.

Tommy_The_Gun · November 20

React wrote: »

This developer stream really highlighted some things for me. The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP" - meaning this is likely the type of gameplay they're okay with and want to encourage.

This would kinda explain why Ball Groups have not received a single nerf or at least tiny adjustment since... well... since this game launched lol.

Cooperharley · November 20

Yea I haven’t played ESO PvP seriously since back then. The problem is a lot of time in ESO I feel like things get developed around what the combat devs want rather than what the players want and it’s led to the situation we’re in today.

I see and hear the “we’re receptive to feedback,” but actions speak otherwise IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️

tsaescishoeshiner · November 20

Quoted post has been removed.

People bring up Cyrodiil in bad faith in Twitch chats. I would delete such obvious bait if I was a Twitch channel mod, too.

In isolation, one honest question like "What about Cyrodiil updates?" would be a totally neutral question, but in reality it's become a hot button topic that players bring up on Twitch just to rage about. People don't say "Cyrodiil Cyrodiil Cyrodiil" in Twitch chat to bring up a new, constructive point lol. So now when anyone mentions it, which they do on every ESO stream, it seems like trolling, even a potentially legitimate comment by the small minority of players asking fair, polite, on-topic questions about Cyrodiil in full sentences.

I was having fun watching the stream and seeing the devs respond directly to some people's ideas, complaints, and critique. Seeing a bunch of people feel persecuted because they can't let any official stream exist without spamming the chat with Cyrodiil was a case of a loud minority bringing everyone down. Even if their complaints are valid!

And I expect it'll happen next stream, too. : p It's not gonna change anything or help anyone in my opinion.

Thumbless_Bot · November 20

Is it against the rules to post a link here to the video? I'd love to see it.

Desiato · November 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Is it against the rules to post a link here to the video? I'd love to see it.

@Thumbless_Bot

Here's a vod of the stream, just before he seemed to get bored of cyro.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2306687114?t=03h06m24s

Aldoss · November 21

Cooperharley wrote: »

Yea I haven’t played ESO PvP seriously since back then. The problem is a lot of time in ESO I feel like things get developed around what the combat devs want rather than what the players want and it’s led to the situation we’re in today.

I see and hear the “we’re receptive to feedback,” but actions speak otherwise IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'm highlighting this comment to say that a combat lead should absolutely be making the game what they want because they've been granted that responsibility by the company that cares about its financial success.

However, a great combat lead would be one who has their thumb on the pulse for what the players are feeling and sensing and making adjustments to their vision with that feedback in mind.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't comment on the forums. Currently that appears to be @ZOS_Kevin's job. That means that Brian has to rely on Kevin seeing the info, aggregating the info, and delivering the feedback in a way that is representative of what the players were sharing. I'm not slighting Kevin here, I'm saying that there's so much wrong with combat, I don't even know how anyone could potentially deliver all the compiled feedback.

Brian really needs to get back into this community. He needs to provide a show that he's here to help cultivate the type of game that we all want to see, while also communicating that it would be impossible to please all of us.

ZOS has a culture of silence being their primary mode of communication. It's really awful. I hope that today's stream was eye opening for them and that they'll make some change. I won't be holding my breath.

Thumbless_Bot · November 21

Desiato wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Is it against the rules to post a link here to the video? I'd love to see it.

@Thumbless_Bot

Here's a vod of the stream, just before he seemed to get bored of cyro.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2306687114?t=03h06m24s

Thanks a lot.

Thumbless_Bot · November 21

Aldoss wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Yea I haven’t played ESO PvP seriously since back then. The problem is a lot of time in ESO I feel like things get developed around what the combat devs want rather than what the players want and it’s led to the situation we’re in today.

I see and hear the “we’re receptive to feedback,” but actions speak otherwise IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'm highlighting this comment to say that a combat lead should absolutely be making the game what they want because they've been granted that responsibility by the company that cares about its financial success.

However, a great combat lead would be one who has their thumb on the pulse for what the players are feeling and sensing and making adjustments to their vision with that feedback in mind.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't comment on the forums. Currently that appears to be @ZOS_Kevin's job. That means that Brian has to rely on Kevin seeing the info, aggregating the info, and delivering the feedback in a way that is representative of what the players were sharing. I'm not slighting Kevin here, I'm saying that there's so much wrong with combat, I don't even know how anyone could potentially deliver all the compiled feedback.

Brian really needs to get back into this community. He needs to provide a show that he's here to help cultivate the type of game that we all want to see, while also communicating that it would be impossible to please all of us.

ZOS has a culture of silence being their primary mode of communication. It's really awful. I hope that today's stream was eye opening for them and that they'll make some change. I won't be holding my breath.

I can't have my thumb on the pulse for obvious reasons but I think you make some really insightful, um, insights. Great post

fizzylu · November 21

React wrote: »

This developer stream really highlighted some things for me. The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP" - meaning this is likely the type of gameplay they're okay with and want to encourage.

It's sad to see for veterans who enjoyed the fast-paced action combat where decisions and mechanical skill mattered, but I don't think we're ever going to see that make a comeback.

Nope. And I'd say we're now the farthest from that considering 4v4v4 BGs were completely replaced with the 2 team setup and 4v4 especially where healing/tanky/bruiser builds are pretty much all you encounter. And maybe it's just me, but I thought it was pretty obvious from the stream that first announced the BG rework and the day they went live that they were created in favor of that kind of PvP playstyle.

But seriously, this stream was just sad. I am thankful they did it though because it really just showed the world exactly how boring the new BGs are.

kiwi_tea · November 21

I found the stream kind of devastating, in terms of the future of PVP. Firstly, it's clear there's no place for a player with the skill of Sypher in the present meta, because even when he executed himself perfectly and fluidly he struggled so hard to confirm a kill given the healing and tankiness. Everyone has become so utterly reliant on procs combos to get through the enormous bulk. The balance of PVP and sets feels so completely out-of-whack that it's hard to imagine how you could bring PVP meta back down to earth to the point where a beginner player can walk in and learn basic survival mechanics without being blown to bits by a Maw proc or Mech Acuity Northern Storm rush. The arms race between proc sets and bulk has been unhealthy for the better part of decade.

To see a tank in 4v4 BGs is *always* depressing, even in flag games, because any self-respecting group will ignore the tank and focus on the fact that "Yay, we're in a 4v3". You just use your numbers advantage to kill everyone, then the tank. To see an actual dev running a tank in BGs was definitely the most upsetting part of the stream, because it suggests a low level of engagement with BGs *as they are played by strong players* in the first place. I'm not even a good player, but I know that 99.9% of matches there's almost no upside to having a tank on your team in BGs (DKs who read the match and spam stagger, Petrify and Talons being the 00.1%). At best you have to pray the other side are especially bad players who will try to kill the tank before picking everyone else off with greater numbers.

Thumbless_Bot · November 21

kiwi_tea wrote: »

I found the stream kind of devastating, in terms of the future of PVP. Firstly, it's clear there's no place for a player with the skill of Sypher in the present meta, because even when he executed himself perfectly and fluidly he struggled so hard to confirm a kill given the healing and tankiness. Everyone has become so utterly reliant on procs combos to get through the enormous bulk. The balance of PVP and sets feels so completely out-of-whack that it's hard to imagine how you could bring PVP meta back down to earth to the point where a beginner player can walk in and learn basic survival mechanics without being blown to bits by a Maw proc or Mech Acuity Northern Storm rush. The arms race between proc sets and bulk has been unhealthy for the better part of decade.

To see a tank in 4v4 BGs is *always* depressing, even in flag games, because any self-respecting group will ignore the tank and focus on the fact that "Yay, we're in a 4v3". You just use your numbers advantage to kill everyone, then the tank. To see an actual dev running a tank in BGs was definitely the most upsetting part of the stream, because it suggests a low level of engagement with BGs *as they are played by strong players* in the first place. I'm not even a good player, but I know that 99.9% of matches there's almost no upside to having a tank on your team in BGs (DKs who read the match and spam stagger, Petrify and Talons being the 00.1%). At best you have to pray the other side are especially bad players who will try to kill the tank before picking everyone else off with greater numbers.

Troll tanks are the single worst part of this game. I dread having them on my team because they are not helpful outside of standing on one single flag and holding l2 and spamming heals. Or whatever it is that they do.

I, for one. Do not want them on the other team either because it creates imbalance. I want 4v4v4, or 4v4 or 8v8 because I want the bgs to be competitive. It's like doing bgs on a new toon and going 40-0 kd in low mmr... it's not fun.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this was less of an issue in 3 team format.

fizzylu · November 21

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Not to beat a dead horse, but this was less of an issue in 3 team format.

*cue the handful of people who are going to dismiss or simply ignore that and say healing/tankiness was a problem even before the update and proper MMR will make everything better*

The_Meathead · November 21

Full on Tanks have their place in Cyrodiil, even if they make me grumble a lot. Burning Sieges, being damage sponges in front of their pals, standing flags... it doesn't look like the most exciting gameplay to me, but it definitely has a function I won't try to argue.

In a BG? Every once in a while, they can pull some of that off depending on BG type, but mostly they're just a nuisance for their own team as much as the opponent.

I found it very odd and worrisome our lead COMBAT DESIGNER went with one, of all people. Shouldn't he be the guy who shows and blows us away with mathematic wizardry combined with phenomenally deep understanding of mechanics to turn into the second coming of Pelinal Whitestrake, leaving herds of dead Crit-kitties and Mer slaughtered before him?

That was the biggest letdown of the day to me, because of all the people we need in sync with PvP, it's him. It made me feel like there's a very large disconnect between the person overseeing the decisions and the PvP game itself. If that's his version of how PvP should be played or his pinnacle of builds for it... well, I guess it explains a lot of decisions since U35.

Cooperharley · November 21

Aldoss wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Yea I haven’t played ESO PvP seriously since back then. The problem is a lot of time in ESO I feel like things get developed around what the combat devs want rather than what the players want and it’s led to the situation we’re in today.

I see and hear the “we’re receptive to feedback,” but actions speak otherwise IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'm highlighting this comment to say that a combat lead should absolutely be making the game what they want because they've been granted that responsibility by the company that cares about its financial success.

However, a great combat lead would be one who has their thumb on the pulse for what the players are feeling and sensing and making adjustments to their vision with that feedback in mind.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't comment on the forums. Currently that appears to be @ZOS_Kevin's job. That means that Brian has to rely on Kevin seeing the info, aggregating the info, and delivering the feedback in a way that is representative of what the players were sharing. I'm not slighting Kevin here, I'm saying that there's so much wrong with combat, I don't even know how anyone could potentially deliver all the compiled feedback.

Brian really needs to get back into this community. He needs to provide a show that he's here to help cultivate the type of game that we all want to see, while also communicating that it would be impossible to please all of us.

ZOS has a culture of silence being their primary mode of communication. It's really awful. I hope that today's stream was eye opening for them and that they'll make some change. I won't be holding my breath.

This is essentially what I mean. There’s a huge disconnect between the devs and the players. The players are essentially a resource for the developers to enact certain things and for them to get an idea of where we should head. It’s up to them to steer the ship and morph popular ideas into what their vision of said idea should be.

I’m not saying every developer should be reading the forums and enact anything and everything the players say. But when there’s a big enough disconnect to where there’s not a PvP update for 7 years and changes are made on a regular basis that are LARGELY unpopular, there’s a problem.

moosegod · November 21

Yeah I thought it was pretty poignant that he noticed all these issues after an hour back in PvP. It was nostalgic watching his old videos on stream. The game was a lot simpler back then, simple sets/effects and succeeding in combat relied on a mastery of game mechanics. People weren't inherently tanky, 35k HP was a lot back then. Sustain wasn't free and built in to every class, you could actually run a player out of resources. Sets didn't carry a player then like they do today.

It's clear Sypher has passion for the game and PvP in particular but it looks like he was left jaded after yesterday's experience.

fizzylu · November 21

The_Meathead wrote: »

I found it very odd and worrisome our lead COMBAT DESIGNER went with one, of all people. Shouldn't he be the guy who shows and blows us away with mathematic wizardry combined with phenomenally deep understanding of mechanics to turn into the second coming of Pelinal Whitestrake, leaving herds of dead Crit-kitties and Mer slaughtered before him?

My favorite part is when he stood there trying to grab the relic despite repeatedly getting interrupted while the enemy player didn't even get close to dying from the damage Sypher was putting out.
10/10 gameplay, for sure.

The_Meathead · November 21

fizzylu wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

I found it very odd and worrisome our lead COMBAT DESIGNER went with one, of all people. Shouldn't he be the guy who shows and blows us away with mathematic wizardry combined with phenomenally deep understanding of mechanics to turn into the second coming of Pelinal Whitestrake, leaving herds of dead Crit-kitties and Mer slaughtered before him?

My favorite part is when he stood there trying to grab the relic despite repeatedly getting interrupted while the enemy player didn't even get close to dying from the damage Sypher was putting out.
10/10 gameplay, for sure.

Yeah, which is a great argument for why Tanks hamstring their own small teams in BGs. That's literally his one function - get a Relic and hold it till cap, but once stopped he's entirely without use.

He seemed like a pretty decent guy and I don't wanna bash him (pun intended!) as a person or as a player, since being the smartest dude in the room about Sets and Abilities doesn't translate to being the best on screen with twitch and ability.

I do think he deserves some heat for being unaware of what certain Abilities or Sets were, when asked, though. They weren't uncommon or obscure ones being asked about, and while it's easy enough to forget words in the heat of PvP it probably should have been on the tip of his tongue going in. It did NOT feel like he's particularly immersed, and that's not great.

Thumbless_Bot · November 21

fizzylu wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Not to beat a dead horse, but this was less of an issue in 3 team format.

*cue the handful of people who are going dismiss or simply ignore that and say healing/tankiness was a problem even before the update and proper MMR will make everything better*

Ba dum che... 😀

xylena_lazarow · November 21

React wrote: »

The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP"

Welcome to the era of "selfish healers" that could care less about supporting their allies, they know exactly how unfun they make the game for DD players, and absolutely relish in that. True support players would be bringing cross healing AoE DDs that win the game, not tanks that grind combat to a halt just so they can laugh at other people not having fun.

kiwi_tea · November 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

React wrote: »

The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP"

Welcome to the era of "selfish healers" that could care less about supporting their allies, they know exactly how unfun they make the game for DD players, and absolutely relish in that. True support players would be bringing cross healing AoE DDs that win the game, not tanks that grind combat to a halt just so they can laugh at other people not having fun.

I really like both bringing and playing alongside full heals with offensive boosts and synergies, personally. Big synergy hits that get around GDC are nice for DPS, and give a real edge. Love combustion and nova as finishers, as hard as it is to pull a good nova off these days (tbh, the smaller bgs help, but getting a DPS who procs the synergies is impossible in solo queue). But I try not to queue solo heals in 4v4 (COS EVERYONE THERE RN IS A HEALER, TANK, OR HAS 16K HP!!!!!!!). Tbh, I barely queue 4v4 right now.

buzzclops · November 21

React wrote: »

Yeah, pretty much every returning veteran has those exact observations. The game was so much better when you had to actually utilize combat mechanics, animation cancelling, heavy attacks, etc to perform well. Now you simply run a bunch of health and sustain, face tank and heal through everything, and go for bursts when you have ult.

This developer stream really highlighted some things for me. The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP" - meaning this is likely the type of gameplay they're okay with and want to encourage.

It's sad to see for veterans who enjoyed the fast-paced action combat where decisions and mechanical skill mattered, but I don't think we're ever going to see that make a comeback.

Tbh it goes further than just wanting to be annoying. It’s a matter of playstyle and if he would’ve been “really annoying and tanking 8 players while healing sustaining and bashing” I would’ve been like yea I guess he likes to play like that and does it well. But it wasn’t done well. Opposite in fact. Seemed to have no knowledge of the simplest mechanics and character building… it’s what scares me the most

Thumbless_Bot · November 21

buzzclops wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, pretty much every returning veteran has those exact observations. The game was so much better when you had to actually utilize combat mechanics, animation cancelling, heavy attacks, etc to perform well. Now you simply run a bunch of health and sustain, face tank and heal through everything, and go for bursts when you have ult.

This developer stream really highlighted some things for me. The biggest thing being that the lead combat dev plays a full tank-healer and by his own admission "likes to just annoy people in PVP" - meaning this is likely the type of gameplay they're okay with and want to encourage.

It's sad to see for veterans who enjoyed the fast-paced action combat where decisions and mechanical skill mattered, but I don't think we're ever going to see that make a comeback.

Tbh it goes further than just wanting to be annoying. It’s a matter of playstyle and if he would’ve been “really annoying and tanking 8 players while healing sustaining and bashing” I would’ve been like yea I guess he likes to play like that and does it well. But it wasn’t done well. Opposite in fact. Seemed to have no knowledge of the simplest mechanics and character building… it’s what scares me the most

It's funny but after so many years and thousands of bgs it is really obvious who is a seasoned bg sweaty, whether they're cheezin meta or runnin their own stuff ( i fall into this category ), and who isn't a seasoned player and whether they are fronting cheez but have no idea how to play or running pve gear and getting steamrolled over and over.

I mean, you can usually tell in 10 seconds. @buzzclops observations above are no different. If it looks Ike a duck...

Sluggy · November 21

Desiato wrote: »

...are pretty much the same as every decent player:

- too much healing
- sustain is too easy
- duels and open world 1v1s are usually not enjoyable
- too tanky
- too much hp
- high ttk, long drawn out fights

He was playing in Cyro and doing as well as anyone, but didn't seem to be having fun, so instead he showed his audience how much more fun ESO PVP used to be by showing them his videos from 2015 and 2016. The gameplay was SO MUCH BETTER.

The only thing I disagree with here is the TTK. It's actually insanely low. Less than two or three seconds in most cases. But the other factors mentioned make it so that full recovery and a hard reset of a fight are easy to achieve if they don't die outright. I say it every time this pops up. Fight entropy. There needs to be an inevitable march toward a conclusion.

fizzylu · November 21

Sluggy wrote: »

The only thing I disagree with here is the TTK. It's actually insanely low. Less than two or three seconds in most cases.

Uh, maybe if you're a gankblade targeting squishies.... but in most cases, I'd say that isn't the case.

StarOfElyon · November 21

Basically my views before the stream:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Over the years YouTube and Twitch content creators have expressed their complaints about combat in ESO, especially when proc sets began dominating, and making the game less about skill and more about set combinations.

Those complaints were never addressed and led to ESO losing what I see as a great treasure in these content creators. I feel like they were treated as replaceable and the value that they brought to the game was under valued.

Now ESO is having an event with streamers and expecting that them playing the game that ignored their complaints is going to make for some positive exposure. I don't believe it will have that effect. I believe it will be the opposite. Maybe I'm alone in that opinion.

Sluggy · November 21

fizzylu wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

The only thing I disagree with here is the TTK. It's actually insanely low. Less than two or three seconds in most cases.

Uh, maybe if you're a gankblade targeting squishies.... but in most cases, I'd say that isn't the case.

Again, I want to stress the difference between time-to-kill and a hard fight reset. If they aren't dead from a burst in two or three GCDs that means they've fully recovered and hard reset the fight to a state before you ever even attacked. And with sustain being so strong it's not like they are down the resources it cost to do that. No entropy. Fight continues forever until someone slips up or a technical issue like lag steps in. Damage and defense right now is like balancing two elephants on a see-saw and lag is a guy with a gun pointed in the air that is randomly going to fire at some point.

fizzylu · November 21

Sluggy wrote: »

Again, I want to stress the difference between time-to-kill and a hard fight reset. If they aren't dead from a burst in two or three GCDs that means they've fully recovered and hard reset the fight to a state before you ever even attacked.

But most people aren't going to think like that when they consider TTK. "Hard fight reset" or not, if you're able to do that with a games combat system most people are going to say that the TTK is high, plain and simple.

It's like in a duel. I can duel my friend for almost 10 minutes.... then just by chance, I can do her complete health pool in under 3 seconds if I just happened to get crits off and they didn't block/dodge.... and the main reason; they didn't have their giant Arcanist shield ult (which btw, that they can usually pop 3 or more times in that period). So while I get what you're saying, most people are going to look at the fact that the duel still lasted close to 10 minutes and say that TTK is high. And I agree with that basic perspective of it, especially when you look at the main reason why they were even able to last that long.