Nexon CEO might inspire ZOS

JiubLeRepenti · October 12

https://insider-gaming.com/nexon-ceo-feedback-more-important-data/

Nexon CEO Thinks That User Feedback is More Important Than Data in Game Development

I think that focusing on user feedback is the most reliable standard at present … I think that if you confidently tell the upper management, “This game will be well received by users!”, it will be accepted, but I don’t think it will work if you say, “We can make this much money.” This is because the sales figures change depending on various circumstances.

When was the last time you saw a poll, a thread, or even just a message from a developer here? When did you see one of them sharing, speaking, asking things to the community?

How many people feel frustrated when they see a set, a mythic item, or anything else get ruined just because of data (the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

How many people left ESO because they felt their feedback, opinions, or concerns were not being taken into consideration by the dev team?

OsUfi · October 12

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

Danikat · October 12

I wish there was a full translation of the interview to read. That article looks like it's pulled selected quotes out of context (the first one starts with "on the contrary") and without knowing the questions he was responding to I think it's difficult to know the point he's actually making.

I'm not suggesting they're deliberately misrepresenting what he said, but it sounds like he's specifically talking about setting a budget at the start of development, not the entire process.

I don't disagree that user feedback is useful, especially in that context. Too many studios recently tried to jump on the band wagon of making live service games, expecting them to be an easy money maker and missed that they're not actually that popular with players and the people who do like them tend to find one game or a couple of games and stick with them. All of which means if they just copy what's currently popular (or was popular 5 years ago when they started development) they're going to be in the very difficult position of trying to draw players away from the game they're already commited to. They were just looking at reported profits, not what players (and potential players) were telling them they wanted.

It's the same thing that happened last decade with MMOs. Lots of companies looked at the success of WoW and decided they were going to do that too, for a while it seemed like a new MMO was coming out every month and while a few managed to find their own audience and stick around (even hitting their 10th anniversary

) others disappeared relatively quickly because they were too much of a generic WoW clone and failed to find their audience, or weren't the easy money train the studio had hoped for so they dropped it.

But I also think data is important. Especially for existing games where they can get real data on their actual players, not hypothetical numbers estimated from other games. If they just go on what players say you run into two problems. Firstly vocal minorities who are convinced everyone wants what they want and can be entirely wrong about it. Secondly chasing ideas that sound good in a forum post or a youtube video or whatever but don't actually work in the game. Actual player data can show them what players really do (and how many, how often etc.) and then the feedback can tell them how we feel about that, but it needs both together, not one or the other.

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a poll, a thread, or even just a message from a developer here? When did you see one of them sharing, speaking, asking things to the community?

I can't find it now but earlier this week there was a survey about guilds, how many guilds you're in, how you found them, the type of activity you do with them etc. It also asked how you'd improve the guild system.

If you click the dev tracker at the top of the forum you can also see times they responded to threads. (Interspaced with patch notes, official announcements etc. but it's not hard to find replies.)

Of course they won't immediately implement every suggestion, that would be impossible and make the game a jumbled mess, but we know they do see what we're discussing.

JiubLeRepenti · October 12

OsUfi wrote: »

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

We could basically say the same about ESO Crown store. Why do you think ZOS is keeping its store so well furnished?

Anyway, what he says remains correct. A game can't just base itself on data in order to satisfy its community.

OsUfi · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

We could basically say the same about ESO Crown store. Why do you think ZOS is keeping its store so well furnished?

But... They don't... It genuinely boggles my mind the crown store makes any money at all. 95% of mounts look awful. Radiant Apex mounts are all hideous. There's no P2W. Everything's a reskin. They return the same stuff every season. ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO I've played.

JiubLeRepenti · October 12

OsUfi wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

We could basically say the same about ESO Crown store. Why do you think ZOS is keeping its store so well furnished?

But... They don't... It genuinely boggles my mind the crown store makes any money at all. 95% of mounts look awful. Radiant Apex mounts are all hideous. There's no P2W. Everything's a reskin. They return the same stuff every season. ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO I've played.

We'll never get exact figures, but we know ESO made 2Bln in ten years, which means 15M per month. Of course it's an average and there are periods where they get more than others.

But yea, the store is working. Also, you have to pay for everything in the game.

You want to change your class? Buy a token
You want to add armorer profile? Buy a token
You want to add extra outfit? Buy a token
You want to make your caracter smile? Buy a token
You want to change your hair color? Buy a token

OsUfi · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

We could basically say the same about ESO Crown store. Why do you think ZOS is keeping its store so well furnished?

But... They don't... It genuinely boggles my mind the crown store makes any money at all. 95% of mounts look awful. Radiant Apex mounts are all hideous. There's no P2W. Everything's a reskin. They return the same stuff every season. ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO I've played.

We'll never get exact figures, but we know ESO made 2Bln in ten years, which means 15M per month. Of course it's an average and there are periods where they get more than others.

I'm not denying they make money from it, I'm saying they don't invest in it and it genuinely boggles my mind they make money on the crown store when they put so little effort into it.

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

But yea, the store is working. Also, you have to pay for everything in the game.

You want to change your class? Buy a token
You want to add armorer profile? Buy a token
You want to add extra outfit? Buy a token
You want to make your caracter smile? Buy a token
You want to change your hair color? Buy a token

You can't buy class change.

You get an armorer slot free. We get 9 character slots. That's 18 builds. We're also allowed to use addons on PC to the point where the armorer is pointless on PC.

You get an outfit style slots for free. You can get darn near every motif in game. What is there, three crown store exclusives?

Sure, on the last two an in game character editor would be nice. But that's not "everything in the game"

I can stay competitive in any field in ESO without the crown store. I can play dress up. I can swap builds. I get the odd mount or pet with endeavors. There's heaps to earn in game. They're adding more all the time now. That's something ZoS have improved on.

Again, ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO, and infact online game in general, I've played for years.

JiubLeRepenti · October 12

Again, ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO, and infact online game in general, I've played for years.

Well, same for me.

I can stay competitive in any field in ESO without the crown store. I can play dress up. I can swap builds.

Just as WoW and FFXIV which are direct competitors to ESO, that's not the point. I'm not comparing ESO with chinese gatchas or more recent game that add P2W content on purpose.

Having an attractive store isn’t solely about adding P2W content to it.

You don’t make two billion dollars just from selling chapters. So yes, it suggests that the Crown Store is very, VERY attractive. Just because you don’t personally feel drawn to what’s in it doesn’t necessarily reflect the majority's opinion.

I’m saddened to see how people defend the idea of basic elements being purchasable in the Crown Store. It’s because of this mindset that we now have the two new companions in the Store (and please don’t tell me it’s free with ESO+. That’s not my point here).

By accepting this, you start with a small compromise, then it escalates to a larger one, and before you know it, you're completely engulfed. When that happens, it’s usually too late to ask for a change.

(for this last sentence I firstly wrote something about fingers, fists and arms in a certain hole but since I'll get snipped for this...)

OsUfi · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Just as WoW and FFXIV which are direct competitors to ESO, that's not the point. I'm not comparing ESO with chinese gatchas or more recent game that add P2W content on purpose.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was quite clear I was referencing Nexon in my first reply.

Renato90085 · October 12

Nexon...they no care player feedback too ,so last year warhaven die(when game development beta

manukartofanu · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

https://insider-gaming.com/nexon-ceo-feedback-more-important-data/

Nexon CEO Thinks That User Feedback is More Important Than Data in Game Development

I think that focusing on user feedback is the most reliable standard at present … I think that if you confidently tell the upper management, “This game will be well received by users!”, it will be accepted, but I don’t think it will work if you say, “We can make this much money.” This is because the sales figures change depending on various circumstances.

When was the last time you saw a poll, a thread, or even just a message from a developer here? When did you see one of them sharing, speaking, asking things to the community?

How many people feel frustrated when they see a set, a mythic item, or anything else get ruined just because of data (the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

How many people left ESO because they felt their feedback, opinions, or concerns were not being taken into consideration by the dev team?

I saw a poll a week ago. A message from a developer... yesterday. Something is happening.

Destai · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

When was the last time you saw a poll, a thread, or even just a message from a developer here? When did you see one of them sharing, speaking, asking things to the community?

How many people feel frustrated when they see a set, a mythic item, or anything else get ruined just because of data (the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

How many people left ESO because they felt their feedback, opinions, or concerns were not being taken into consideration by the dev team?

There are efforts being made. To their credit, we do get many "we're working on it" and other bug acknowledgements. Kevin also helps a lot of people out with their support tickets. They just posted a guild poll a few days ago, so there are some efforts being made.

However, there are many examples where conversational engagement was needed, like u35, and they didn’t take the opportunity.

Polls are not frequent occurrences though. The communication we see here is still largely patch notes, official website links, and moderation. I just think there are larger issues going on beyond what individual employees can address.

Many players have suggested better ways to communicate, ways we think would help the situation and our understanding, and those suggestions are largely not implemented. Additionally, there have been many longstanding issues like the stuck in combat bug that don’t receive acknowledgment here. Even recently, there’s been answers to topics in interviews and Reddit that have open threads. I don’t understand why those answers aren’t posted here consistently. They’re aware of the topic after all.

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

How many people feel frustrated when they see a set, a mythic item, or anything else get ruined just because of data (the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

This was me after the recent warden changes. I don't feel like the changes were needed. And if anything, they felt like a 180 from previous patches.

I just don't know where they're going combat-wise. For me, it was a final straw that ensures I take an extended break on the game. I'm not really in a place where I want to rebuild my character I've played for 1000s of hours. I'm sure I could find a new build but the most recent warden changes impacted my soloing farming, which is literally all I can do in game at this point.

Warhawke_80 · October 12

Nexon?

That's such a throw away statement...

Question...you have sixty people asking for eighty different things who do you listen to?

" The ones who screech the loudest and can work the word toxic in every topic of course.... "

I just don't see that as net positive game development.....

CatoUnchained · October 12

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Nexon?

That's such a throw away statement...

Question...you have sixty people asking for eighty different things who do you listen to?

" The ones who screech the loudest and can work the word toxic in every topic of course.... "

I just don't see that as net positive game development.....

Why can't you accept that Cyrodiil PvP was integral in the base game design of ESO? If you don't like PvP, then don't. But why lobby so hard to get ZOS to change the game from what it was designed to be? Those of us that loved Cyrodiil PvP see efforts of this nature as toxic, and legitimately so. Nefas even did an extensive video explaining how this effort to make Cyrodiil a PvE zone is toxic. If people were continually lobbying to remove every casual aspect of ESO I'm sure the casual, non competitive players would view that as toxic behavior, wouldn't you?

Warhawke_80 · October 12

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Nexon?

That's such a throw away statement...

Question...you have sixty people asking for eighty different things who do you listen to?

" The ones who screech the loudest and can work the word toxic in every topic of course.... "

I just don't see that as net positive game development.....

Why can't you accept that Cyrodiil PvP was integral in the base game design of ESO? If you don't like PvP, then don't. But why lobby so hard to get ZOS to change the game from what it was designed to be? Those of us that loved Cyrodiil PvP see efforts of this nature as toxic, and legitimately so. Nefas even did an extensive video explaining how this effort to make Cyrodiil a PvE zone is toxic. If people were continually lobbying to remove every casual aspect of ESO I'm sure the casual, non competitive players would view that as toxic behavior, wouldn't you?

No I would care less...because I'm not silly

Why should it bother you that someone has a different opinion than yours?

Are you scared that my powers of persuasion are such that the devs will listen to me?

And according to Nefas anyone who isn't 100% onboard with the .5% of the community that happen to be Hypercompetitive's are "Toxic" or are a "Toxic positive"...so he can take a flight for all I care.

I'll keep giving my opinion... you can just cope.

Estin · October 12

I feel that ZOS should go the dev diary route. Something similar to what OSRS does where they lay out all of what they're developing for the current year and let community feedback influence the process. Not through voting, just plain feedback. The PTS process just does not work anymore. ZOS has come out and said that the PTS is where they test their visions rather than to incorporate player feedback, and anybody who has been playing for a long time knows that ZOS's vision isn't popular amongst its players. The PTS cycle is also too short to incorporate any significant feedback if they ever did, and I bet any player feedback causes development interruptions for future updates because they have to spend time on the feedback instead of focusing on the content for the future updates. The whole process feels like them building a house but forgetting to include any bathrooms, so 2 updates later, it finally gets a [snip] tacked on extension to include an outhouse. That problem could've been avoided if they laid out what they were doing much earlier and opened it up to player feedback.

Does it have to be done for every update? No, probably not. But for these new Q4 tentpole systems and any major class changes like GLS, I would say yes. It's much better than getting the showcase some 5 weeks before its release and knowing that what they have is not going to work out at all because they didn't think everything through (Queueing issue for new BGs), or receiving a half baked class change in the name of balance/performance/accessibility/unique excuse that has remained unfinished by their words for over a year because it's too late to incorporate any feedback by the time it hit PTS.

[edited for bashing]

MJallday · October 12

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

https://insider-gaming.com/nexon-ceo-feedback-more-important-data/

Nexon CEO Thinks That User Feedback is More Important Than Data in Game Development

I think that focusing on user feedback is the most reliable standard at present … I think that if you confidently tell the upper management, “This game will be well received by users!”, it will be accepted, but I don’t think it will work if you say, “We can make this much money.” This is because the sales figures change depending on various circumstances.

When was the last time you saw a poll, a thread, or even just a message from a developer here? When did you see one of them sharing, speaking, asking things to the community?

How many people feel frustrated when they see a set, a mythic item, or anything else get ruined just because of data (the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

How many people left ESO because they felt their feedback, opinions, or concerns were not being taken into consideration by the dev team?

You do realise developers are not in charge of what’s in the game right?

It’ll be decided by managers that they report into . Sure they’ll have input but ultimately they’ll be told what to code, and they’ll code it.

jaekobcaed · October 13

This isn't a flaw intrinsic to ZOS, here. Ever since the rise of cesspits like Reddit and Discord, virtually every MMO has relegated any of their socialization with the community to interactions with brown-nosing cliques in those two services. Old school MMO players who enjoy engaging on a game's forum tend to be neglected by the developers, sadly.

spartaxoxo · October 13

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

(the latest example being the Azureblight “nerf”)?

Azureblight was nerfed after complaints about it on the forum. The devs do post here (through Kevin) but we could definitely use official responses more often.

alternatelder · October 13

While Nexon absolutely is great at listening to player feedback and making the changes the player is asking for (no joke), I played The First Descendant to know this as fact. Anyone can look at what the game is and can easily see they are thinking "how can we make lots of money" and that it is the biggest objective. 😅❔

FelisCatus · October 13

Don't hold your breath. Sad that we as gamers/customers are relying on investors to hear us out not developers...

tincanman · October 13

zos/eso dev paradigm seems to be 'we know best'.

There may be some fingers stuck in ears and a lot of 'la-la we're not listening' sounds, too, judging from the pts over the years. Wouldn't like to say which side that's coming from, though, or even if it is entirely one-sided.

LalMirchi · October 13

While "focusing on user feedback" would be ideal I still think that the tail should not wag the dog, figuratively speaking.

User feedback is rather volatile content and I still think that games should follow their founders visions.

Warhawke_80 · October 14

LalMirchi wrote: »

While "focusing on user feedback" would be ideal I still think that the tail should not wag the dog, figuratively speaking.

User feedback is rather volatile content and I still think that games should follow their founders visions.

Visions change...

Brad McQuaid and Raph Koster if anything taught us that....

Destai · October 15

Estin wrote: »

I feel that ZOS should go the dev diary route.

I really appreciate the performance diaries that we got in 2020. I wish they would have sustained that. I get that having performance issues visible on their main page isn't the best marketing material, but I think showing studio-consumer dialogue is way more attractive. Other studios actively embrace dialogue on uncomfortable topics like bugs and other issues, it shows they're committed to more than just marketable events and content releases. It's certainly a better look than the countless threads on performance issues and PTS feedback without engagement.

Estin wrote: »

The PTS process just does not work anymore. ZOS has come out and said that the PTS is where they test their visions rather than to incorporate player feedback, and anybody who has been playing for a long time knows that ZOS's vision isn't popular amongst its players.

I think they just need to be more open what's a test and what's not. I think there's a misalignment on how PTS feedback will impact development. I tried pointing that out during the AMA earlier this year, but I don't think the point was understood. It's a bit jarring to see them having a cool attitude and then the forums/Reddit are in uproar.

At the end of the day, if PTS changes aren't being well received, they shouldn't be implemented, combat changes aside. At least, not without a roadmap of why it had to be done. I'm thinking things like the environmentalist changes in U43, Nightblade permaglow, event changes, etc.

Estin wrote: »

The PTS cycle is also too short to incorporate any significant feedback if they ever did, and I bet any player feedback causes development interruptions for future updates because they have to spend time on the feedback instead of focusing on the content for the future updates.

The environmental UI changes were a great example of this. It was poorly received, to say the least, and had to be partially reversed and/or reworked. Seeing that tells me it needed another PTS cycle to bake.

Estin wrote: »

Does it have to be done for every update? No, probably not. But for these new Q4 tentpole systems and any major class changes like GLS, I would say yes. It's much better than getting the showcase some 5 weeks before its release and knowing that what they have is not going to work out at all because they didn't think everything through (Queueing issue for new BGs), or receiving a half baked class change in the name of balance/performance/accessibility/unique excuse that has remained unfinished by their words for over a year because it's too late to incorporate any feedback by the time it hit PTS.

I think it should be every update. Especially if we're getting massive QoL or balance changes, an AMA or dev diary is absolutely required. If we're all dealing with changes on a game that heavily incentivizes daily play, I think them putting in the communications work is only fair.

Stafford197 · October 15

OsUfi wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Ah, yes, Nexon, the games you never stop buying. Is the user feedback "what do the whales want to buy this week?"

We could basically say the same about ESO Crown store. Why do you think ZOS is keeping its store so well furnished?

But... They don't... It genuinely boggles my mind the crown store makes any money at all. 95% of mounts look awful. Radiant Apex mounts are all hideous. There's no P2W. Everything's a reskin. They return the same stuff every season. ESO has the easiest to ignore cash shop in any modern MMO I've played.

I disagree. The Crown Store features nearly all of ESO’s cosmetics as a whole. This includes houses, costumes, mounts, convenience items, skill line and experience boosts, certain earnable items such as motifs and event tickets, and even has an optional subscription to acquire infinite material inventory in a game which has an unbelievably large catalogue of materials. Oh yes, and there’s also 30+ different types of Loot Boxes full of exclusive items which cover a plethora of themes, aka “Crown Crates”.

Regarding the P2W aspect….. whatever we want to call it I’m just going to clearly lay out info so unfamiliar players can understand what’s happening.

1. ESO allows Players to spend their real-world currency on a premium in-game currency called Crowns, which can then be used to purchase exclusive items from the Cash Shop (labeled the “Crown Store”).

2. ESO allows Players to spend their Crowns to “gift” Crown Store-exclusive items to other users.

3. It is not against TOS for Players to engage in trades where a player will gift Crown Store-exclusive items, purchased with real-world currency, to other users in exchange for the in-game currency, aka Gold.

To elaborate on the significance of this: ESO lets us spend a huge amount of real-world money on in-game Crowns, which can then be quickly gifted away to other players to acquire enormous sums of in-game Gold. This Gold can then be used to purchase unlimited materials, potions, gear, and just about all rare collectables…. it can even be used to buy a “carry”, which is when you pay Gold to a group of players to run you through difficult content in order to earn any difficult achievement / any earned cosmetics that you want. The reason I know is because I’ve done hundreds of carries and most endgame players know how this works including ZOS. It’s all allowed.

I see players quick to label certain new MMOs as P2W when they offer faster progression and/or battle passes for real-world currency, yet will simultaneously defend ESO. Whatever we call it, I wish people would stop blindly defending one game or another and try to judge things fairly is all.

Bo0137 · October 15

Trust me. ZOS listens to players WAY more than Nexon does. Like, way more.

The game of my life is MapleStory. I quit because of how they handled the game, specially regarding microtransactions.

I don't have any interest in praising ZOS other than being fair. I'm just being fair.

I've been playing MMORPGs since I was a little kid. Over 20 years now. I've never met a company that cared this much about the playerbase.

I am NOT saying ZOS is perfect. I acknowledge several flaws in ESO. I am saying that ZOS is the best there is for the consumers in the MMORPG market.

In fact, I play ESO mostly because of how the game is handled. And I would play any MMO ZOS decides to launch in the future.

Theist_VII · October 15

On this very forum, you will see elaborate well thought out suggestions that attack very real problems with the game from every angle, and ZOS will see your feedback and try to respond to it.

Most recent example, we’ve been shouting from the rooftops that it’s time for Templar tanking to be a competitive option.

Instead of making any of the several changes suggested by the community, we got a root on the damage dealer morph, a taunt on a charge skill instead of reworking a morph into a pull, and Minor Maim on Sun Shield? None of these changes have moved the needle.

While you can see we’ve been heard, you can tell we were not listened to. We haven’t just stated it’s a problem, we’ve stated why it’s a problem.

Thoriorz · October 16

Actually a lot of times when I look at the forum and some of the threads I wonder if there is a community manager coming here at all and collecting feedback etc..
Occasionally I see some comments on a question for example at an event etc. but otherwise I have the feeling that ZOS is not very interested in the forum and rather the forum serves only as a chat between other players.

Dragonnord · October 16

Devs: "We want to hear your feedback! What do you players want for the game?"

Players: "Nerf everything! We want the game to be for 5 years old kids! Yeeeeeeah!" (actual fact in TESO)

Players too: "Also, give away looooooots of easy and free stuff during a loooong period of time." (economy dies, actual fact in TESO)

Yes, hear players feedack. Sure!

Aggrovious · October 16

Bo0137 wrote: »

Trust me. ZOS listens to players WAY more than Nexon does. Like, way more.

I don't have any interest in praising ZOS other than being fair. I'm just being fair.

I am NOT saying ZOS is perfect. I acknowledge several flaws in ESO. I am saying that ZOS is the best there is for the consumers in the MMORPG market.

Why didn't they hire Skinny Cheeks then? It seems there is something internally handicapping ZOS from making easy reverts or changes. I really want ESO to thrive, but their latest patches/policy/vision have annoyed me. I will say the latest dungeons are really cool though. The group finder is also the best thing they have ever implemented in the game.

I have tried to reach out to multiple staff and interact on the forums here, but I feel little to no impact.