A question about "unfair advantages"

Spacefiddle

Honestly curious about something. A refrain I hear as justification for controlling another player's UI is "because it will give you an 'unfair' advantage," usually referring to PVP.

Most proponents of that idea defend it... ah, vigorously. And they constantly cite the Devs as being of the same mind.

For that group, how do you feel about this, just posted in service status, regarding the current prep-to-launch downtime:

> The Palomino horse will be available for purchase from the official ESO store.

The Imperial Edition, and soon apparently this upcoming cash shop horse. A horse costs a player who does not pony up (harhar) 17,500 gold. Or, you can pay $20 and get one for practically free (1g).

Cyrodil is freaking huge. The continents and PVE environments are huge (which is awesome).

Does paying cash to get a cheap horse far sooner than players who do not pay cash confer an unfair advantage?

I keep thinking of Harrison Bergeron for some reason.

westonyknpeb18_ESO

I kind agree with you. It is unfair, but Imperial Edition is not only a horse, it's just more and since you want only the horse there should be a better normal price for it. I've seen a lot of spams about getting some gold and gold farmers(bot). There must be some control of that and probably in the feature there will be, but the game just began. ESO is new to the world so they will need some time to get to the needed experience. About the Cyrodil you have huge stamina regeneration which also benefit your run from one point to another even without a horse. I don't find that horse that much of a need anyway.

leewells

Actually the horse you get has ridiculous stats and has the same run-speed as of a player. By the time you upgrade the horse to the point it runs any faster than the player to make a significant difference, you have already spent some 24,000 gold and 10 days on upgrades, which is right on par with the in-game horses.

The way I see it, the main difference is color -- and does this create an unfair advantage? Being it is white and not camo, no.

Spacefiddle

Actually, no. You'd see this if you were in Cyrodil. The horse normal run speed pulls ahead of even the Cyrodil perma-sprint. And the horse sprint, in turn, is much faster. After chasing after a crowd of mounted players and never being able to keep up, it definitely confers an advantage.

Remember also that the zone is enormous. Over say 50 yards, the difference is still there, but not great. When racing to the next keep objective? It's enormous.

parangea

it's so easy to get 17k gold. I don't see the problem. They still have to pay with gold for their better horse. Plus, who wants a white horse? Black horses look so much better.

As for cash shop, they never should have gotten themselves into that mess.

Wykkyd

This topic has been beaten to death on the PTS forums for months. I expect it'll be re-hashed quite extensively as this game opens up more and more. Just know, you're opening a very large and wriggly can of worms.

Blencathra

I don't have a problem with the two editions at the beginning of the game, because it brought in a little more money for the company who have to recoup their costs. What I DO have a problem with is what looks like the beginnings of a cash shop when I was under the impression that this was not going to happen.

drowadin

It is not unfair the offer was to all and the one's who took the offer and payed the cash get the horse fair is fair pre order like everyone or earn the money to purchase it in game. Donot give in to the whineing ESO they get something and they will whine for more and destroy ur game just as they did many others.

Nullus

Both a cash shop and addons are garbage.

Here we go with the DPS goons telling you how to play your character. How to spec and what rotation to use because they are running their DPS meter. and they dont like where you are sitting on their charts being a DPS.

Gear score here we go. "sorry you are 3 points shy of being acceptable to run with us. because my gear score add on says you need to try harder, KBYE" you can be a total idiot with the right gearscore but as long as those numbers match you are golden boy!!!!

instead of being surprised lets have an add on that tells us what the other guys in PvP are casting or doing.. who cares about a challenge or just having fun, we need to see it!

I get addons that make life easier.. sell all, bag addons, but addons that are built to be annoying. DPS meters, GS, etc.. not needed and usually bring more trouble then they are worth to these games. which is probably why the old classics lasted so much longer then these new start and stop after a year games..


Addons become a problem because just like teamspeak they become super important and required to do anything in the game. with everyone at different volume levels with back ground noises and headset quality.. im an old school MMO player.. i did just fine before all this technology and i wish it stayed that way. Now if i want to run something i need (insert x addon) because my guild or group requires that because people like to stand in lava. (boss addons and timers)

whatever happened to play skill? what ever happened to focusing on the fight and not DPS meters gear scores casting bars and whos doing what? Does the current player base of MMOs suck that much that we require our hands to be held through encounters? PVP? and PVE? go back to the old days where you lived and learned, where you could faceroll a boss and had to actually use what you had to be successful..

i guess im a dying breed of players who know how to play a game without needing addons to make me better, or think i am.


Cash shop has been around a long time and i dont agree with them either. They became mainstream with WoW and all their stupid collectible pets and uber cool mounts.. since everyone likes to compare everything to wow i would assume most people love the idea of this.

However that game becomes more rewarding and more of a good time sync when people have to earn things like weapon skins armor skins, rare mounts that drop. rare mobs that can be added as pets etc.

Offering advantages through special weapons, gems,enchants, armors, materials of any time, any stat boosters or things that cant be obtained on in equal level in the game is game breaking imo. they should 86 the cash shop..

Just my 2g

stevar

As the question is about "unfair advantage"
the horse you can buy with real money are not as good as the good horses you can only buy with in game gold.

It offer convenience for players who are less "competitive" and have deeper pockets. Yes sure it does.
It does not offer an "unfair advantage" as in game horses are better ;-)

Tueland

Nullus wrote: »

Here we go with the DPS goons telling you how to play your character. How to spec and what rotation to use because they are running their DPS meter. and they dont like where you are sitting on their charts being a DPS.

Well most of us dont like slackers, if the reason we are failing on this one boss over and over again because you want to run your homemade multi tank, healer, dps build im going to get pissed, and im going to call you out on your dps (If thats your role)

Use all your fun build and what not when you are alone or playing with people whos in on it, hell, i encourage you to play around with builds and try different stupid things. But if you want to progress or want to play with the players that do give a poop, you gotta spec and play the right way to play in sync with the others. Thats what it takes to play as a team.

Nullus wrote: »

Gear score here we go with this load of crap. "sorry you are 3 points shy of being acceptable to run with us. because my gear score add on says you need to try harder, KBYE" you can be a total idiot with the right gearscore but as long as those numbers match you are golden boy!!!! screw the guy who can play his class that has a pair of gloves missing holding his GS back..

For the most part, i agree with you here. I liked the gearscore addon in itself, but it was used wrong by most people, they looked at it as a Skill-o-Meter insted of a general pointer to see if your gear matched the dungeon.

Nullus wrote: »

Addons become a problem because just like teamspeak they become super important and required to do anything in the game. with everyone at different volume levels with back ground noises and headset quality..

Here again, if you want to play with a team that wants to do good, you gotta do what the group wants, to play in sync with the others. Thats what a team is!

Nullus wrote: »

im an old school MMO player.. i did just fine before all this technology and i wish it stayed that way. Now if i want to run something i need (insert x addon) because my guild or group requires that because people like to stand in lava. (boss addons and timers)

Sorry, but this is just stupid.
Do you still take your horses and cart for a days trip down town to buy and trade for the next month supplies?

No, addons and live chat programs (Skype, TS, Mumble etc) is a convenience. Why shouldnt you use it when its right there?

graham.macyb14_ESO

Did they do away with the essentially free horse you get for porting to cyrodiil? I thought that was pretty useful...

gilgalahad1313

I agree that I don't see the white ponies as any advantage as I can almost outrun the buggers. I'll bide my time, play the game and buy a pony when I have enough gold to do so. It's called...let me see...oh yeah! patience, something sorely lacking in so many players today and I lay all problems at the foot of WoW. It wasn't the best mmo ever, in so many ways it was a lazy attempt to cash in on a brand and it worked. As for you Nullus......if you ever need a help, call on me. I couldn't agree any more with what you said unless I'd written it myself.

Players these days are really starting to make me feel old, but this game gave me hope that all is not lost in the world of mmo's...but the jury's still out on that. Didn't take long for the power gamers to capture the Cyrodillic flag did it. Some seem to be impressed by this, I'm dismayed as I started a pool among many players I know from different games as to how long it will take power gamers and/or ftp whiners to ruin yet another game. Jury's still out on that as well.

Spacefiddle

Whoooo!

Thanks all, and I mean that seriously. I'm realizing now that there were a lot more issues overlapping here than I thought I was bringing up, of course. This is a convo - and rant, and rave, and minor hysteria - that will go on for a while, but I think this game will advance it.

Couple thoughts -

You want to tell other people they can't have addons because you don't want DPS goons to tell you how to play. It's that short-circuit that bothers me. I don't want DPS goons to tell you how to play either! But... if they do... ignore them? Play with someone else?

Here's the thing. There are no gearscore or DPS addons now. But stay in chat and you see "LFM Grotto, 15+" Without any addons at all, people are selective about who they play with. You can't change that. But neither would you need to. You may be perfectly capable of doing Grotto in any role at 11, but you'll never convince that guy you can. But why bother? You probably wouldn't like him anyway. Let him play with who he wants, it's not up to you. Just like it's not up to him whether you lead a group of level 11s on a successful rofflestomp thru the place.

To the grousing about age and lazy, that's been documented since Plato griped about indolent youth in his day. I'm 41. If you're like, 32 and complaining about lazy kids, I might have to laugh at you a little, but that doesn't mean you don't have a point.

It comes down to wanting no one to control you or your experiences, while reserving the right to control others. All other points aside, that's the sticky bit for me.

Also I still think the horses, en masse, confer an advantage. Which is an amusing shade of realism, as the force with more calvary does better. Realism which is completely destroyed as you leap off your horse and pull a trebuchet out of your back pocket, but hey, trebuchets are cool.

Casusluciferi

The noob

Nullus wrote: »

Both a cash shop and addons are garbage.

Here we go with the DPS goons telling you how to play your character. How to spec and what rotation to use because they are running their DPS meter. and they dont like where you are sitting on their charts being a DPS.

Gear score here we go with this load of crap. "sorry you are 3 points shy of being acceptable to run with us. because my gear score add on says you need to try harder, KBYE" you can be a total idiot with the right gearscore but as long as those numbers match you are golden boy!!!! screw the guy who can play his class that has a pair of gloves missing holding his GS back..

instead of being surprised lets have an add on that tells us what the other guys in PvP are casting or doing.. who cares about a challenge or just having fun, we need to see it!

I get addons that make life easier.. sell all, bag addons, but addons that are built to be annoying. DPS meters, GS, etc.. not needed and usually bring more trouble then they are worth to these games. which is probably why the old classics lasted so much longer then these new start and stop after a year games..


Addons become a problem because just like teamspeak they become super important and required to do anything in the game. with everyone at different volume levels with back ground noises and headset quality.. im an old school MMO player.. i did just fine before all this technology and i wish it stayed that way. Now if i want to run something i need (insert x addon) because my guild or group requires that because people like to stand in lava. (boss addons and timers)

whatever happened to play skill? what ever happened to focusing on the fight and not DPS meters gear scores casting bars and whos doing what? Does the current player base of MMOs suck that much that we require our hands to be held through encounters? PVP? and PVE? go back to the old days where you lived and learned, where you could faceroll a boss and had to actually use what you had to be successful..

i guess im a dying breed of players who know how to play a game without needing addons to make me better, or think i am.


Cash shop has been around a long time and i dont agree with them either. They became mainstream with WoW and all their stupid collectible pets and uber cool mounts.. since everyone likes to compare everything to wow i would assume most people love the idea of this.

However that game becomes more rewarding and more of a good time sync when people have to earn things like weapon skins armor skins, rare mounts that drop. rare mobs that can be added as pets etc.

Offering advantages through special weapons, gems,enchants, armors, materials of any time, any stat boosters or things that cant be obtained on in equal level in the game is game breaking imo. they should 86 the cash shop..

Just my 2g

The rage is strong with this one.

Zaziel

I can out run the imperial mount so no I don't see a problem with it. You need to invest a huge amount of gold and time on these horses to make them better. By the time someone have upgraded their Palamino horse to the level of a an ingame horse they've already spent almost the same amount of in game coin and a lot of time. I don't even use my horse for anything but extra bag space atm. It's usually faster to just run.

Spacefiddle

Okay... is there anything that boosts (two-legged) run speed? Because i quite deliberately tested this a number of times by running alongside the shiny white horses, and even while i'm sprinting and they're not, they pull slightly ahead. And when they sprint they get much further ahead. Like I said, even in the Cyrodil of perma-sprint, and me starting at the head of the pack, all the horses pulled far ahead and had completely capped the first objective before I even got there, sprinting the whole way.

Seerah

As has been said multiple times already, you can upgrade your horses over time with gold at the stable master.

/edit: I tested the imperial horse on the PTS. As others have also said multiple times, the horse isn't a boost to your speed until you upgrade it enough to be. It's just pretty to look at and RP with. Which is why it's so cheap and was part of the collector's edition.

Spacefiddle

Seerah wrote: »

As has been said multiple times already, you can upgrade your horses over time with gold at the stable master.

As I have said multiple times already, i have kept up with no horse anywhere at any time. So everyone's upgraded the IE horse over time in the first 3 days?

Regardless, re-read my original post, and you may discover the topic is not horses vs. running, exactly. I am being generous with the "re-."

Seerah

Maybe they had 5 days.

(And I'm ignoring your thinly veiled insult.)

Spacefiddle

Seerah wrote: »

Maybe they had 5 days.

(And I'm ignoring your thinly veiled insult.)

Not really meant as an insult; more as a not-at-all-veiled sinking feeling that you hadn't gotten what I was originally getting at. I say three days because i noticed it 2 days ago, or so

SirAndy

If you don't want to fork out the cash for a horse, get "Bolt Escape" and zip right past all the guys on horseback ...
;-)

Spacefiddle

SirAndy wrote: »

If you don't want to fork out the cash for a horse, get "Bolt Escape" and zip right past all the guys on horseback ...
;-)

Oh screw it, this topic is about mobility now.
Yeah actually that's on my list of skills to get soon, looked intriguing. Does AoE remain kind of sparse at higher levels, or is there more? Is it meant to be left to the siege engines? A few games have tried to include more active, mobile combat online, but usually with standard MMO targeting systems and wide-area AoE effects available.

SirAndy

Spacefiddle wrote: »

Oh screw it, this topic is about mobility now.
Yeah actually that's on my list of skills to get soon, looked intriguing. Does AoE remain kind of sparse at higher levels, or is there more? Is it meant to be left to the siege engines? A few games have tried to include more active, mobile combat online, but usually with standard MMO targeting systems and wide-area AoE effects available.

Yes, there are a few nice AoE to be had at higher levels. Combine that with synergies and/or emperor bonus and you have some awesome crowd control on your hands ...

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Ill be Blunt... This game wasnt designed as a world of warcraft clone.
DPS meter? Well dude you might as well stop playing because your party will be constitued of 3 nightblade 1 templar (if not a night blade healer) and 1 dragonknight (if not a night blade tank) at ALL time.

Dont give me the dps meter bull ***... a nightblade using reaper mark will out dps your damage dragon knight builds or your sorcerer by spamming left click. Also... ill have to mention tanks are relatively useless as they barely can ''kite'' a few mob at a time not to mention that most boss choose their target randomly wich is why our Healing spells also choose to heals party player at random. If your in for organised pve you better leave right now this wont exist here.

You aint a dying breed yet nullus... those idiots who still expect this game to run on the ''you dps and Watch your bar while i tank and healer does all the job to carry us trought our numerous mistakes'' are the dying breed here. Games evolve and agro systems as well as the holy trinity is slowly fadding from the MMO genre.

If you have any respect for your teamate you better darn pic up a self heal or defensive ability or you just gunna be a burden to your team. DPS is subpar what mathers is that you stay alive and if i see you volontarily standing in the fire and daring to call for a heal so you can keep mindlessly dpsing like a zombi... i wont have any restraint about kicking you out.

Its about time some of you trinity zombi actualy learn to play an active defence game because youve been siting still and standing in the fire since 2004 and are due for a fresh update on how games are played

Spacefiddle

So the takeaway here is that terrible burning nerdrage against the idea of DPS makes one semi-literate. Alrighty then. brb bleaching eyes

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

DPS reccount arent needed in a game were dps is subpar in the first place you can rage all you want against the API wich forbid showing your dps to others there is still no place for a ''DPS'' meta style in a game where builds arent defined by the damage they do.

Must i also mention that ranged will be the only spec to constantly be able to dps a target because the rest of you will be kiting and running away for your life out of red circles? Because yes in dungeons adds are rarely under control and simply standing still and spamming a spell bar will get you killed. Most player dont spend the fight dealing damage they spend it trying to survive.

So those horse... well so far i only see mine can run 16% faster. sure its free mobility but i aint needing it that much. Most of the travel in this game will still be done with wayshrines.

Spacefiddle

Yeeks. Ok, first off, I apologize if you aren't a native English speaker. But in the shorter post I can see some of what you're getting at.

I'm not sure if you've been active in a lot of other games lately. I try just about everything for at least a few months, usually longer, to keep tabs on what's going on in the industry. Couple things:

Running from bad is as common as it's ever been. Every game has AoE, and the nifty telegraph-warnings on the ground are becoming more common as well. Melee - sorry, decent melee - has been making sure not to stand in the bad forever, and you should realize by now that ranged has to do it too. Most people either 1) prefer range, or 2) are bad at melee, because of having to pay attention to their feet, and the target, and the environment, at the same time. But it works perfectly well when you do it right.

Nothing here seems to be pure melee anyway. Everyone uses mana and has ranged attacks, so time on target should not suffer if you're doing it right.

As for meters, yes. I know that "recount" has become the Great Satan of every player who believes it will save them from elitism to not have mods. It won't. It doesn't. Go find a group now, in game, for anything. Some folks will refuse to take you because they want a higher level, or it looks like your weapon is underpowered, or they don't like your name, or they think you smell funny. This is happening right now, in this game, without any sort of damage meters. And will always happen, in every game, with or without mods, because people can play with whomever the heck they choose to and no one can force them to play with anyone they don't want to bring along.

Fortunately, you have that same right, and if you think someone is too "elitist" or concerned with damage output, you are 100% free to start your own group and invite anyone you want.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

All those reasons will keep existing but we dont need to give players more reason to actualy transform a good game into a 1 build play bullcrap.

Guild wars 2 started from a free build game to a zerker dps only game where only 1 build per class exist and in some case some class arent played at all because they dont by default hit hard enought (im looking at you necro enginer and ranger)

What im concerned about reccount is the actual danger it pose to hybrid self sustaining build wich may have 1 or 2 self survival utility in their bar those builds are healthy for the community regardless because healer alone rarely will be enought to keep a whole team up in a time of crisis and thats if the healer itself is a pure heal with absolutely no damage in its bar.

I dont mind people asking for specific level or checking gear long as i dont have to explain why im running a specific build wich is not a meta everytime i join a team still i think we should avoid providing the community more reason to put a locker on every single instance in a game where everyone can technicaly play what they want. At this rate you will be kicked out of a dungeon team where there are fire mobs just because you a vampire thats ridiculus.

Truth be told even with a dps reccount no single dungeon is the same and a build wich work realy well in one might fail hard in the next one because ennemies have defrent weakness and immunity.

I dont mind you looking at your damage meter... long as you dont impose it to everyone else and start killing everyone fun.

Dracovar

Spacefiddle wrote: »

even while i'm sprinting and they're not, they pull slightly ahead. .

What? I sprint past horses all the time.

ragamerb16_ESO

DPS meters/Combat Logs are invaluable as a testing tool... And at the same time destroy PvE communities. That's why any future successfull MMO has to remove them from Live environments and restrict combat logs to Test Environments. ESO still have room to make this change but, something tells me the Devs will be too overload at postlaunch with other issues and will let this linger over time until the damage is already done (They are naive enough to think that restricting Combat Log to "just you" will prevent external tools to synch data and create FOTM DPS builds).

It's very simple... If you design your game so a 5% difference in DPS matters, your design sucks. If you need a tool to meassure the differences in performance above 10% into a team, it's because you, as leader, are lazy enough to not check who you are playing with and staying time practicing with them. This is what belonging to a team mean, talking, practicing and helping... Not just going to the forums to read a recipe someone somewhere told you is needed to get your phat lootz and scream to everyone that's not bringing his "magic button" with them.

That's the problem with DPS meters... They are used by ppl that have no clue about how game mechanic work and all the issues behind a given number tells. They meassure systematically the wrong stats (They all use averages... Which systematically lie on scenarios with changing conditions) and promote that the game-illiterate stop thinking and instead just blindly follow what is posted on forums as the current FOTM, this guarantee they will never learn to play properly and understand how the game they are playing works. The so called "hardcores" that need a DPS meter, are just that, wannabes that are incapable of understanding how the game is played and ofc need this tools to "distinguish" how other ppl is "performing" because they refuse to invest time into learning the game they play... It's easier to install some "magic button" that tells you how to play the game you are paying for.

What's even worse, after enough time passes, Devs themselves start to take into account this Tools into their design and go around creating "challenges" that consist in staying immobile and beating enrage timers... It's easy, just create a bunch of new models and tweak your timer to the current FOTM dps figures, voil'a "new" content rdy for the brainless DPS users to "beat"... In time, most ppl realize how pointless this game becomes when a well programmed bot can outperform any player when the Challenge designs are simple DPS checks.

On the other side, combat logs are INVALUABLE tools to check your character in search of the details of how skills interact with each other and CRITICALLY important at spoting and reporting mechanical bugs.

So this is the dicotomy I face regarding Combat Logs... And after seeing how the pattern is repeated all the time in every single MMO with them... The solution has become very clear to me. Allow them ONLY on test environments for players really interested in learning to check how mechanic works and help dealing with bugs (I assume Test environments include frequent wipes and no PvE progress can be done in them... Just puntual test sessions).