So apparently people are being banned in game for using certain words with their friends?

Arrodisia · September 19

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! GIve ZOS a break.

Imagine labeling the game as 17+ then banning adults for simply cussing in a private chat where nobody got their feelings hurt.

Imaging saying I was banned for X thing when you have no proof of you (your friends) being banned for THAT thing.

Seems to be at least not denied with Kevins comment here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8185457#Comment_8185457

They say to appeal it with a ticket, but those tickets take a lot longer than the ban and are often ignored

That quote is not related to this new unconfirmed, clickbait thread which recently popped up.

However, I do agree. The appeal process takes too long. An appeal to a disciplinary action should always involve a human CS representative.

Vaqual · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.

The other thread focuses more on it, but basically the main point is that apparently people have experienced account related measures for language in private chats (whispers, groups) where graphic language was used with the consent of all present parties. There were no reports issued and no one took offense. This is especially problematic for roleplayers, where certain graphic expressions are part of the play (slavery, humiliation, conflict scenarios, etc...). Unprovoked measures + the semi-automated ticket/appeal system would make this a very hostile system towards players with RP preferences or even friend groups with relaxed expression standards.
tldr: punishment without victims is not needed.

You don't need to rely on me recounting this tho, the thread is up and a available.

StaticWave · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! GIve ZOS a break.

Imagine labeling the game as 17+ then banning adults for simply cussing in a private chat where nobody got their feelings hurt.

Imaging saying I was banned for X thing when you have no proof of you (your friends) being banned for THAT thing.

I don’t need to give you the messages. You are in no position to do anything or question me about the validity of it. I asked people whether they can confirm if it’s true, meaning I’m still skeptical of it as well. There is no need for you to take a stance against me lol. Chill out dude.

I think I’ve said it twice already but you refuse to read it. I’ll repeat it one last time:

My friend received an email from ZOS with details about his ban, including sections of his messages leading to the ban. These messages were in a private group chat with only him and his group mate. Nobody was reported, and the messages were not sent to anyone else.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

Arrodisia · September 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! GIve ZOS a break.

Imagine labeling the game as 17+ then banning adults for simply cussing in a private chat where nobody got their feelings hurt.

Imaging saying I was banned for X thing when you have no proof of you (your friends) being banned for THAT thing.

I don’t need to give you the messages. You are in no position to do anything or question me about the validity of it. I asked people whether they can confirm if it’s true, meaning I’m still skeptical of it as well. There is no need for you to take a stance against me lol. Chill out dude.

I think I’ve said it twice already but you refuse to read it. I’ll repeat it one last time:

My friend received an email from ZOS with details about his ban, including sections of his messages leading to the ban. These messages were in a private group chat with only him and his group mate. Nobody was reported, and the messages were not sent to anyone else.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

The streamer could've showed the official email in the twitch, just like countless other streamers do, but they didn't. Instead they attached a self written note.
So this remains unconfirmed clickbait...

Dragonnord · September 19

StaticWave wrote: »

.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

You don't know that. Simply as that.

Funny he shows a Notepad text written by him instead of showing Customer Support's e-mail.

And btw, you chill out, I'm not against you, I'm defending ZOS from accusations without proof (your friend in this case, not you).

PS: Read Arrodisia comment above.

SkaraMinoc · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

You don't know that. Simply as that.

Funny he shows a Notepad text written by him instead of showing Customer Support's e-mail.

And btw, you chill out, I'm not against you, I'm defending ZOS from accusations without proof (your friend in this case, not you).

What they said might violate Twitch's ToS and they can't show it on stream. It also might violate the ESO forum rules. That doesn't mean they should be banned from ESO for typing it in a group chat to their friend. (if that's what happened)

Dragonnord · September 19

And again, with that reasoning, I can say all kind of <snip> in private chat, racist stuff, gender offensive stuff, in fact all type of repugnant offensive stuff, and then I can just go "Oh! I was joking with friends."

So context matters.

Whatever you say, without proof and the chat conversation provided, the reasoning above applies, and it's not how it works.

Maybe your friend got incorrectly banned, maybe he/she didn't. We can't know.

<snipped for Filter Bypass>

DenverRalphy · September 19

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

You don't know that. Simply as that.

Funny he shows a Notepad text written by him instead of showing Customer Support's e-mail.

And btw, you chill out, I'm not against you, I'm defending ZOS from accusations without proof (your friend in this case, not you).

What they said might violate Twitch's ToS and they can't show it on stream. It also might violate the ESO forum rules. That doesn't mean they should be banned from ESO for typing it in a group chat to their friend. (if that's what happened)

If there were actual evidence, it would show up on Reddit. A platform that wouldn't give two bits about ESO's code of conduct. And that hasn't happened either.

Vaqual · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

And again, with that reasoning, I can say all kind of <snip> in private chat, racist stuff, gender offensive stuff, in fact all type of repugnant offensive stuff, and then I can just go "Oh! I was joking with friends."

So context matters.

Whatever you say, without proof and the chat conversation provided, the reasoning above applies, and it's not how it works.

Maybe your friend got incorrectly banned, maybe he/she didn't. We can't know.

<snipped for Filter Bypass>

But this is exactly why the report function exists.

Syldras · September 19

From what I've read in this thread (and several others that were made the past few days), it looks like it's indeed just the good old word filter, reacting on swearwords, plain and simple. Which explains that there is no recognition of context; and that people can roleplay or talk about everything absolutely fine, even gruesome or NSFW things, as long as they don't use common swearwords (if you make up your own creative ones, it's fine

).

The only new thing seems to be autobanning people.

Heren · September 19

Sluggy wrote: »

The real issue I take here is this whole 'AI banning people" thing. Where did that even come from? Is this something zos said they were even doing?

Agree this is a bit vague, and AI is certainly a trending word to use, but then, according to ESO TOS :

"To the extent that ZeniMax performs any content moderation of UGC to ensure its compatibility with these Terms of Service (including the Code of Conduct or any relevant EULA), such content moderation may be carried out via human review as well as through the use of AI-powered proactive and reactive moderation methods including without limitation, software that uses algorithmic decision making."

As for sanctions, it's not explicitly stated how they are decided, but the possibility of using AI ( or others "software that uses algorithmic decision making" ) for that is certainly here.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Dragonnord wrote: »

So context matters.

I don't know, it seems to me that you answered your question very well. Context matter. So the concern about using "AI-powered proactive and reactive moderation methods including without limitation, software that uses algorithmic decision making" for moderation is, I think, a valid one - and the fact that it may have been like that ( or maybe not exactly like that ) isn't really an argument, in my opinion, to just dismiss that concern.

Dragonnord · September 19

Vaqual wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

And again, with that reasoning, I can say all kind of sh*t in private chat, racist stuff, gender offensive stuff, in fact all type of repugnant offensive stuff, and then I can just go "Oh! I was joking with friends."

So context matters.

Whatever you say, without proof and the chat conversation provided, the reasoning above applies, and it's not how it works.

Maybe your friend got incorrectly banned, maybe he/she didn't. We can't know.

But this is exactly why the report function exists.

And how do we know what was the context? Did ZOS say to him "You were banned while writing between friends in a private chat and no one reported you."?

So he says and we MUST believe? I go to court and say "I'm innocent and this was the context" and the Judge goes "Awesome! Easy case. He is innocent Case closed."?

How we know it was really like that and there were only really close friends in the conversation, that they were close friends and not guild mates or so where situations happen, or that there were more persons in the conversation, that were not that close, someone got offended and reported him?

We just have to believe what he states? I don't think that's how things work. Otherwise, we're all innocents by just saying we're innocents.

Maybe he is, I'm not saying he is not, we just don't know and the situation can only be resolved between him and ZOS.

Dragonnord · September 19

Heren wrote: »

So the concern about using "AI-powered proactive and reactive moderation methods including without limitation, software that uses algorithmic decision making" for moderation is, I think, a valid one - and the fact that it may have been like that ( or maybe not exactly like that ) isn't really an argument, in my opinion, to just dismiss that concern.

Just when OP writes above "From what I've read in this thread (and several others that were made the past few days), it looks like it's indeed just the good old word filter, reacting on swearwords, plain and simple."

So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

Heren · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

Just when OP writes above "From what I've read in this thread (and several others that were made the past few days), it looks like it's indeed just the good old word filter, reacting on swearwords, plain and simple."

So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

On one hand you dismiss personnal opinions, on the other you take them when it suit you ?

And did you even read and understand what I quote from the TOS and what I wrote ?

Or are you just blindly dismissing everything you don't like ?

Dragonnord · September 19

Heren wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Just when OP writes above "From what I've read in this thread (and several others that were made the past few days), it looks like it's indeed just the good old word filter, reacting on swearwords, plain and simple."

So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

On one hand you dismiss personnal opinions, on the other you take them when it suit you ?

And did you even read and understand what I quote from the TOS and what I wrote ?

Or are you just blindly dismissing everything you don't like ?

It seems it's you that are not reading me, as in one of my comments in this thread I stated that, if AI is indeed being used, there should be no problem, as monitoring chat is an old thing since ever in mmos.

Syldras · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

Just when OP writes above "From what I've read in this thread (and several others that were made the past few days), it looks like it's indeed just the good old word filter, reacting on swearwords, plain and simple."
So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

I'm not OP. It's just my observation from reading these threads for a few days, as well as using the game chat every evening to talk about all kinds of topics and never have gotten any warning, let alone ban, so far.

hiyde · September 19

We've always known that all forms of in-game chat have been archived.

What seems to be new in 2024:

TOS updated last February to include the use of AI software to monitor all chat and take action "proactively", meaning without anyone filing a complaint.

The bot sees banned words or phrases, the bot issues a suspension without any human at ZOS reviewing.

That's the crux of the current debate. It would be good for ZOS to speak to this, as promised last week, but this is their sandbox and they make the rules. As customers, we decide what we're OK with.

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton · September 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! GIve ZOS a break.

Imagine labeling the game as 17+ then banning adults for simply cussing in a private chat where nobody got their feelings hurt.

Imaging saying I was banned for X thing when you have no proof of you (your friends) being banned for THAT thing.

I don’t need to give you the messages. You are in no position to do anything or question me about the validity of it. I asked people whether they can confirm if it’s true, meaning I’m still skeptical of it as well. There is no need for you to take a stance against me lol. Chill out dude.

I think I’ve said it twice already but you refuse to read it. I’ll repeat it one last time:

My friend received an email from ZOS with details about his ban, including sections of his messages leading to the ban. These messages were in a private group chat with only him and his group mate. Nobody was reported, and the messages were not sent to anyone else.

He got banned for using a specific word while talking to his friend in their PRIVATE group chat.

Very real, but the automatic bans started on 13th of September.
Prior to that, I never received a single suspension or warning for consensual insults in private channels with friends, and we used a lot as jokes since 2014 (only in private, of course).
Shortly after realizing I was banned, I check forums, and bingo, I see a newly-opened (1 day prior to me noticing the ban) thread about people hearing that their friends and guildies are being banned for private chats.

Example of a suspension email is in my post in that very thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8189973/#Comment_8189973

As for what words trigger the ban bot, so far I only know of anything related to r-word (both ending with D and TED), the archaic term for a female cat as you mentioned, and a the word that resembles "come".

Tallon_IV · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.

I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is grateful you're going to bat so hard for them. 🙄

hiyde · September 19

Here's a scenario that concerns me as a guild officer:

Member A whispers me a complaint about Member B:
"Member B called me a "******" in the guild trials run, I thought you should know.

I whisper to Member A:
"do you have a screenshot of this person calling you a "******"

Me via whisper to another officer, or in our officer channel:
"Member A called Member B a *******", should we remove them from the guild?

And bam, everyone in this conversation is proactively suspended lol

Dragonnord · September 19

Tallon_IV wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.

I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is grateful you're going to bat so hard for them. 🙄

So you only defend something or do a good action (not that I'm doing a good action here) if the person you are doing a good action for notices you. Glad I'm not like that.

AngryPenguin · September 19

sarahthes wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Apparently chat is being monitored by AI and some people got banned while having fun banter with their friends because they used certain words that are deemed against the ToS. Nobody was reported, no feelings got hurt, yet those people still got banned.

Can anyone confirm this?

Probably best to know the content of their private conversations with their friends before wondering if they were unjustly banned.

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

AngryPenguin · September 19

Maitsukas wrote: »

How many threads on this issue do these players need now?

At least one every day until the issue is resolved.

No ban should ever take place without human review first.

AngryPenguin · September 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! GIve ZOS a break.

Imagine labeling the game as 17+ then banning adults for simply cussing in a private chat where nobody got their feelings hurt.

So much this!

The words used that are resulting in bans are acceptable during prime time television when children under 12 years old are watching.

Plus, plain and simple, there should NEVER be a ban without a human reviewing the issue first. If ZOS want's to use an AI bot to generate a report for human review, fine. But an AI bot doing banning is unacceptable, especially when the bot is as inaccurate as the one ZOS is using so obviously is.

Syldras · September 19

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

Of course it's a TOS violation, if the TOS say you're not allowed to write slurs. Do I find it useful to punish people when no harm was done? Certainly not. But we have accepted the TOS as they are, so they can enforce them accordingly. There's not a single uncertainty about that, and we shouldn't be surprised. I also don't expect them to change the TOS (or if at all, they will probably get even stricter), so all we can do is to live with that and draw our consequences (and how these look will differ from person to person).

tomofhyrule · September 19

I'd also be concerned on what language exactly constitutes "bad language."

We all know that "unalive" (which is the worst word I've ever heard in my life) is used a lot on social media since the word "kill" is against the ToS/CoC of some social media websites and will result in actions on the accounts. Is the profanity crackdown going to take that out? Is there a list of words we can reference to know what not to say?

Sure, you don't normally say "kill" in a bog-standard TikTok or whatever. But if you're in a random dungeon and you're explaining the mechanics to people, are you now not allowed to say "you need to kill the adds before they enrage the boss"? Heck, there are even some NPCs who say things that would be against CoC (Everyone laughs when Sharp looks at a dead enemy and throws out a "Skill issue."); are we expecting ZOS ban NPCs now?
(If so, however, can you start with Lady Laurent? I'm about tired of seeing her constantly abusing her manservant.)

There are plenty of examples that are not as black-and-white as it could be - also consider the guild officer example above where people can be banned specifically for trying to address toxicity in their guild.

Look, I get it. A Code of Conduct exists. And we all did agree to it. But it's understandable that there would be a bit of a shock if they just decided to start enforcing it to the letter after 10+ years of letting certain things slide. Don't we at least deserve a "Hey, in the next month, we're going to seriously enforce the Code of Conduct, so watch your language from now on" before the bans are handed out?

Tallon_IV · September 19

Dragonnord wrote: »

Tallon_IV wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.

I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is grateful you're going to bat so hard for them. 🙄

So you only defend something or do a good action (not that I'm doing a good action here) if the person you are doing a good action for notices you. Glad I'm not like that.

You're comparing individuals to a company. Again, I hope they notice you. Maybe you'll get some free crowns.

Dragonnord · September 19

Tallon_IV wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Tallon_IV wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.

I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is grateful you're going to bat so hard for them. 🙄

So you only defend something or do a good action (not that I'm doing a good action here) if the person you are doing a good action for notices you. Glad I'm not like that.

You're comparing individuals to a company. Again, I hope they notice you. Maybe you'll get some free crowns.

Fortunately I don't need any, as I have several Ks stored from ESO Plus.

StaticWave · September 19

As of now the person in the screenshot has been unbanned, so that’s good.

Syldras · September 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Sure, you don't normally say "kill" in a bog-standard TikTok or whatever.

Well, I unalived a mosquito yesterday (the result is the same: it's dead), but I didn't make a fancy video about it

This is a a true problem, though:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Is there a list of words we can reference to know what not to say?

They can't provide us with an extensive swearword list. They wouldn't want to, either, as then sooner or later someone will find something ugly that's not on the list, throw it around and claim "It's not on the list though!!!!" But what's the solution to this? I have no clue, really. Not even saying it's about "severe insults" would help, as everybody has a different point where they draw the line. Cultural differences might matter too. For a fair judgement, one would have to look a context and the person's overall behaviour, which a simple word filter can't accomplish.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Don't we at least deserve a "Hey, in the next month, we're going to seriously enforce the Code of Conduct, so watch your language from now on" before the bans are handed out?

That would have been fair. Unfortunately, it's not the first time where I have the impression that the communication we get is a little lacking.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Heck, there are even some NPCs who say things that would be against CoC (Everyone laughs when Sharp looks at a dead enemy and throws out a "Skill issue."); are we expecting ZOS ban NPCs now?

I think it's not so much about the use of a certain word, but what ZOS wants to avoid is players insulting or harassing other players. Which is a thing npcs cannot.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

(If so, however, can you start with Lady Laurent? I'm about tired of seeing her constantly abusing her manservant.)

He's enjoying it. Gladly, they're npc, otherwise their roleplay would be banned