Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

Varana · September 14

That's the idea, yes. It's not as clear-cut in practice - there are dungeons or trials where having Echoing Vigor or a similar heal slotted, is helpful, sometimes only for some people in specific roles, or some may choose to have it on the bar just in case, but expect to use the skill only for emergencies.
But generally, a DD loadout for an organised trial group doesn't need a self-heal.
For buffs, that's usually sorted out by the team leader beforehand. Some DDs may be assigned to run specific buffs or buff sets. If not, use sets that buff your own damage, and fire with all you have.

mdjessup4906 · September 14

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

So from what I understand if your in team play you don't run any heals or buffs if your DPS. You just deal damage but you don't buff or heal bc thats the other teammate's job?

heaven13 wrote: »

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

Exactly. Sometimes as a dps you will be away from the healers and will need extra survivability, like during cloudrest portals, etc. But u don't need the ring for that, just a heal skill. It's enough to get the job done.

mdjessup4906 · September 14

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

So from what I understand if your in team play you don't run any heals or buffs if your DPS. You just deal damage but you don't buff or heal bc thats the other teammate's job?

heaven13 wrote: »

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

I have a trial to get to right now lol but I'll post some examples later of different group builds for trials.

Also what server u on?

TheDragonMeister · September 14

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

[
I never paticipated in trials so I don't know the mechanics of all of them. But that doesn't mean I don't want to try. Besides if their is a specific healing mechanic then I'd be on a different character for that trial. I have 5 characters. But my nightblade vamp also runs the sated fury skill so I can't be healed by others when it's active anyway so I run pale order bc nightblades don't have many heals either. which is why I said that specific build relies on pale order. I have other characters but they aren't nearly as strong.

Trials and dungeons are built around the idea of group coordination. The whole point is to play a role on the team. If you are willing to switch off for this one mech, then why not others?

Also, thr trial sanity edge has a similar ice mech to sunspire. It's always something.

Well I want to do some trials with my strongest character. Is that really a bad thing?
I don't want to forced to massively change the gear either just for a trial run. Seems like too much work for 1 little thing.

Like I said, I never really did trials so I have no insight on the mechanics at all. I lived in a house with horrible internet connection and heavy player areas like active cities, cyrodiil sieges, trials, etc. rendered my game to constantly lag so I couldn't do anything on my game at all.

I just don't see why they won't allow pale order to work in a trial. Even if it's small like only healing 8% of dmg when grouped with 5+ people and still 20% when solo.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 14

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I think the twins have some thoughtful concerns and don't mean to discount them.

As a player who runs Oakensoul on every character, that is also a mythic that is not appropriate for trials. All those buffs the ring gives you are redundant in trials, but the one bar restriction remains. So I'd argue there is a hidden second drawback to Oakensoul when it comes to large groups. Just a thought.

As a healer, I used to hate Pale Order, having routinely spent lots of magic before realizing my target was wearing Pale Order. Thankfully, the new UI health bar feature let's me see right away if my heals will be wasted.

Oh, That is interesting. I didn't know Oakensoul didn't work in trials either. I appreciate your reply and honesty.

TheDragonMeister · September 14

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I have a trial to get to right now lol but I'll post some examples later of different group builds for trials.

Also what server u on?

Me and Spirit (TheRoamingSpirit) play PC/NA server

Theist_VII · September 14

When Pale Order received it’s nerf, healers were much less supportive than they are now, while there were zero other options for Mythics.

Now we have so many damage options that are ridiculous, just look at the Velothi Necklace! 15% Damage + Penetration? You would lose so much damage running 10 damage dealers with Pale Order that it wouldn’t be worth it to any competitive group.

If anything, removing that negative scaling from the ring would help the bottom line of players and increase their inclusion into harder content while encouraging proper rotations for healing to complement players that want both bars.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 14

1st alliteration of Pale Older ring did not had the group limitation and it was added later on & there were 2 reasons why:
1. PvE DPS players figured out that they don't need healers in vet hm trial score runs (yes it was meta item).
2. PvP Ball groups were abusing this item way to much.

If I remember correctly, ZOS explained later on that they intended Pale Order ring to be a mythic for solo play.

Theist_VII · September 14

It might be worth a test during a PTS cycle.

TheDragonMeister · September 14

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

1st alliteration of Pale Older ring did not had the group limitation and it was added later on & there were 2 reasons why:
1. PvE DPS players figured out that they don't need healers in vet hm trial score runs (yes it was meta item).
2. PvP Ball groups were abusing this item way to much.

If I remember correctly, ZOS explained later on that they intended Pale Order ring to be a mythic for solo play.

Do you know how many mythics are in this game now? How many better mythics for things like trials dmg dealers and pvp zergers have now? It's not like this is the only mythic in the game. They release new mythic items every chapter.

How is this suggestion causing so much people to flip out. At this point I'm just thinking some of you just like to hate on everything without even thinking about it. I assume those hating on this suggestion hate pale order and everyone that runs it.

heaven13 · September 14

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

And if you took off your ring, your healer could heal you. If you're going to play group content, particularly in more difficult content, please be prepared to play as a team, and not as a solo person surrounded by other people.

Healers aren't just healing, but healing is still part of their role.

Additionally, healers use multiple different spells (depending on class) and many of these can heal more than one person at a time. So you can heal the tank and still heal other people. In particularly tank-heavy encounters, you can have one healer focus on tank and the other on the group. But they're still healing. A healer who only casts heals and no buffs isn't a good healer, sure, but neither should they be only casting buffs and no heals.

Are you familiar with the Sunspire trial? There is a mechanic that REQUIRES healing. You cannot heal yourself because you are completely encased in ice and unable to move. The healer has to get your health all the way to 100% before you are released. If they can't do this, you die (and often the explosion of you dying wipes the group). Even if the ring was effective in a group, you still wouldn't be able to heal yourself because you'd be frozen and unable to do damage. So you wouldn't be able to heal yourself and a healer couldn't heal you. Congratulations, you just wiped the group.

You both seem a little more inexperienced, so it's normal not to be aware of some of this stuff. I'd advise considering the points people have made and trying to look at it through a different perspective. None of us want the ring nerfed; I'm sure plenty of us use it in solo content ourselves! But the suggestions you've made would absolutely lead to it being nerfed into oblivion because it would end up way overpowered in group content.

I am inexperienced in trials cause I tried twice but both times the group sped through it before I could even accept the quest for the trial, I not ashamed to admit that I never really got to do trials. But can you be a little nicer with your replies? If some trials require healing I'll play on my tank sorc rather than my vamp DK. Not changing my gear pieces.

I apologize if my internet tone is coming across as not nice/polite. I'm trying to explain in more basic terms since, as I mentioned, you both seem inexperienced, which again, is not a bad thing; we've all been there. In fact, my first time in group dungeons was way back in ye olden days (before we had chapters, I think it was just Orsinium/Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild) and I had not yet learned the perils of attempting to play group content in first person. Needless to say, I still have a kneejerk reaction to Fungal Grotto II. It took time and the help of some wonderful people who were patient to explain mechanics and gear to me for me to get to the point that I was doing vet hard modes. But I also had to be willing to accept that feedback and do work on myself to get decent gear and be prepared and practice so that I knew what my skills did and what a rotation was.

I'm not sure what platform y'all play on (it doesn't seem to be in your signatures) but I'd definitely recommend joining a guild that does group content for newbies, or people who usually solo, or people who are interested in the story of the trial and want to go slow to read/explore/do the quest. I know PC-NA has/had those types of groups and while I don't know what groups are still around and actively doing content, that's also how I started getting into more trials and stuff. I was terrified to do my vet trial but the guild I started with was super helpful and patient so getting a good guild can go a long way towards the enjoyment of that particular content.

TaSheen · September 14

I don't hate Pale Order, and I don't use it myself. Only thing I know about it is the situation with the trials leads in the beginning (and not because I do trials, I just have some friends who are leads/do trials), and since it hadn't come up lately, I hadn't heard any more about it from them.

I use Oakensoul, as I solo exclusively. I do no group content at all.

heaven13 · September 14

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

So from what I understand if your in team play you don't run any heals or buffs if your DPS. You just deal damage but you don't buff or heal bc thats the other teammate's job?

Yes, pretty much. Certain classes have some built in healing like with their spammable (templars have jabs, nightblades have swallow soul, etc) and that's usually sufficient in group content when you have a good healer. Sometimes a shield is handy as well, depending on the mechanics but otherwise I trust my healer.

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

How is this suggestion causing so much people to flip out. At this point I'm just thinking some of you just like to hate on everything without even thinking about it. I assume those hating on this suggestion hate pale order and everyone that runs it.

As I mentioned before, a lot of us use Pale Order. I do. I've used it in arenas, I've used it in Infinite Archive. I think it's great and I use it for the content it's designed for (ie, solo content). If it were to be made more "well-rounded" so it was good in both types of content, it would have to lose some of its effectiveness. It started out that way and it was deemed too powerful, hence the changes to bring it to what it is today.

TheDragonMeister · September 14

Since the question was asked more than once, Spirit and I added our server in our signatures.

TheDragonMeister · September 14

heaven13 wrote: »

Yes, pretty much. Certain classes have some built in healing like with their spammable (templars have jabs, nightblades have swallow soul, etc) and that's usually sufficient in group content when you have a good healer. Sometimes a shield is handy as well, depending on the mechanics but otherwise I trust my healer.

As I mentioned before, a lot of us use Pale Order. I do. I've used it in arenas, I've used it in Infinite Archive. I think it's great and I use it for the content it's designed for (ie, solo content). If it were to be made more "well-rounded" so it was good in both types of content, it would have to lose some of its effectiveness. It started out that way and it was deemed too powerful, hence the changes to bring it to what it is today.

Well I'll keep that in mind and just drop all heals and buffs for dmg only, dropping lifesteal and dmg buffs, probably dropping nightblade resource sustain skill "siphoning attacks" since I just need to deal dmg only so probably drop all class skill that provide buff, even when dealing damage, for weapon skills thats dmg only meaning no scribe skills either bc you can put buffs on those. makes no sense to me though since my dmg would lower because of lack of dmg increase buffs like brutality/sorcery, savagery/prophecy, berserk/force, etc. not sure what mundus stone or sets to run. obviously nothing buff related right?

I know pale order designed for solo play currently but I'm just saying that it could have more potential now. Their is a lot of mythic items now and I don't see it losing effectiveness if they allow it used in group play. Sorry for suggesting it. I know it was obviously terrible considering all the negativity.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 14

heaven13 wrote: »

I apologize if my internet tone is coming across as not nice/polite. I'm trying to explain in more basic terms since, as I mentioned, you both seem inexperienced, which again, is not a bad thing; we've all been there. In fact, my first time in group dungeons was way back in ye olden days (before we had chapters, I think it was just Orsinium/Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild) and I had not yet learned the perils of attempting to play group content in first person. Needless to say, I still have a kneejerk reaction to Fungal Grotto II. It took time and the help of some wonderful people who were patient to explain mechanics and gear to me for me to get to the point that I was doing vet hard modes. But I also had to be willing to accept that feedback and do work on myself to get decent gear and be prepared and practice so that I knew what my skills did and what a rotation was.

I'm not sure what platform y'all play on (it doesn't seem to be in your signatures) but I'd definitely recommend joining a guild that does group content for newbies, or people who usually solo, or people who are interested in the story of the trial and want to go slow to read/explore/do the quest. I know PC-NA has/had those types of groups and while I don't know what groups are still around and actively doing content, that's also how I started getting into more trials and stuff. I was terrified to do my vet trial but the guild I started with was super helpful and patient so getting a good guild can go a long way towards the enjoyment of that particular content.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your explanation not nice, I misunderstand often. I am in a guild on ESO they do weekly trials but I never tried asking to join up with them. Cause I'm not usually online at the times they run trials. Sometimes I am but most of the time, I'm not.

heaven13 · September 14

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

I apologize if my internet tone is coming across as not nice/polite. I'm trying to explain in more basic terms since, as I mentioned, you both seem inexperienced, which again, is not a bad thing; we've all been there. In fact, my first time in group dungeons was way back in ye olden days (before we had chapters, I think it was just Orsinium/Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild) and I had not yet learned the perils of attempting to play group content in first person. Needless to say, I still have a kneejerk reaction to Fungal Grotto II. It took time and the help of some wonderful people who were patient to explain mechanics and gear to me for me to get to the point that I was doing vet hard modes. But I also had to be willing to accept that feedback and do work on myself to get decent gear and be prepared and practice so that I knew what my skills did and what a rotation was.

I'm not sure what platform y'all play on (it doesn't seem to be in your signatures) but I'd definitely recommend joining a guild that does group content for newbies, or people who usually solo, or people who are interested in the story of the trial and want to go slow to read/explore/do the quest. I know PC-NA has/had those types of groups and while I don't know what groups are still around and actively doing content, that's also how I started getting into more trials and stuff. I was terrified to do my vet trial but the guild I started with was super helpful and patient so getting a good guild can go a long way towards the enjoyment of that particular content.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your explanation not nice, I misunderstand often. I am in a guild on ESO they do weekly trials but I never tried asking to join up with them. Cause I'm not usually online at the times they run trials. Sometimes I am but most of the time, I'm not.

Oh, totally understand that. Back when I was doing group content, trying to find a time that all 12 of us were available was sometimes harder than the bosses themselves, lol. That's why I liked the group I did my first trial with. They had an open roster so it was a first come, first serve every week so you could sign up for one, and then not for quite a few more. Rather than a progression thing that you're expected to be around for each week.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 14

heaven13 wrote: »

Oh, totally understand that. Back when I was doing group content, trying to find a time that all 12 of us were available was sometimes harder than the bosses themselves, lol. That's why I liked the group I did my first trial with. They had an open roster so it was a first come, first serve every week so you could sign up for one, and then not for quite a few more. Rather than a progression thing that you're expected to be around for each week.

I'm in game currently running a dungeon with my twin Dragon. Maybe we can join up for a trial sometime. I just won't use my Vamp DK. Cause his build doesn't work in trials.

LaintalAy · September 15

notyuu wrote: »

If they removed the diminishing effect from number of group members then they'd need to re-add the cap to the healing per instance to avoid the ring being op, if I recall correctly it was capped at 4.2k healing

LaintalAy wrote: »

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants? At the same rate as Aetherial dust.

What?

Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

is the topic.

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants?

Is the change that I'd like to see instead.

I'm right, so there's no need to waste any time pondering it.

AlterBlika · September 15

Pale order is meant to be one of the best (at least in easier content) solo mythics, can't see why would you want to use it in groups when you have healers by your side

Dagoth_Rac · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale Order is just healing, it doesn't buff your damage.

It buffs group damage. If you drop the healers and just have the DPS equip Pale Order in a trial, you can run 10 DPS and 2 tanks instead of 8 DPS, 2 tanks, and 2 healers. This may not increase any individual player's DPS, but it buffs group DPS by about 25%. In a dungeon, running 3 DPS and 1 tank instead of 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer, you buff group DPS by about 50%. Yes, this is more of a problem with dedicated, organized guild groups than your average PUG group. But a single item that buffs group DPS by 25%-50% would be really, really powerful. And there is probably no reliably effective way to make sure it works in "bad" groups but not "good" groups.

Ultimately, the mythic simply breaks group dynamics in a way ZOS wants to avoid. There are some sets that work in PvE but not PvP or vice versa (usually via the "against monsters" clause or "against players" clause or "when battle spirit is active" clause) because they break PvP/PvE dynamics in ways they want to avoid. They do not split the baby and try to make it kinda sorta work in both. Pale Order is gear that works in solo/duo scenarios but not larger groups.

So while it has two drawbacks, it is because without the second drawback, the first ceasing being much of a drawback at all in a good group.

TheRoamingSpirit · September 15

AlterBlika wrote: »

Pale order is meant to be one of the best (at least in easier content) solo mythics, can't see why would you want to use it in groups when you have healers by your side

Well, From what I was told from different people is never to depend on healers or tanks. Whether in PVP or PVE. Because if one person falls the whole group is dead. This is also not about just trials, it's also about the new 8v8 battlegrounds that is coming with update 44. In PVP I was told it's essential to have heals and buffs for yourself if you wind up in a fight with no allies around. This also helps in dungeons when I first ran them with my twin, one of us died and the other had to self sustain during a boss fight. (That doesn't happen too often now, unless we forgot the boss mechanics or it's a new dungeon)

Also the reason Dragon and I only run dungeons with just us two is cause of criticism, Others didn't like our playstyle and builds so they weren't nice to us when we attempted to run dungeons with other people.

Northwold · September 15

The mythic is intended to make harder content playable solo. It isn't intended to override how group gameplay works and make certain group play styles redundant.

It's similar to other mythics that only help you if you engage with specific gameplay in specific ways. Think Oakensoul -- for those who can't deal with two bar but want to increase DPS (it also has MAJOR drawbacks associated with losing a bar), Sea Serpents Coil (the raison d'être of which is PvP), etc.

Facilitating a specific play style and not giving players superhero powers in every field of gameplay is basically what the mythics are about.

TaSheen · September 15

LaintalAy wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

If they removed the diminishing effect from number of group members then they'd need to re-add the cap to the healing per instance to avoid the ring being op, if I recall correctly it was capped at 4.2k healing

LaintalAy wrote: »

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants? At the same rate as Aetherial dust.

What?

Suggestion to a small change for Ring of Pale Order Mythic

is the topic.

Why can't it just drop from Dragonthorn plants?

Is the change that I'd like to see instead.

I'm right, so there's no need to waste any time pondering it.

Ummmm.... ooookay.... No one here is talking about where it drops (or should drop) from....

TheDragonMeister · September 15

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale Order is just healing, it doesn't buff your damage.

It buffs group damage. If you drop the healers and just have the DPS equip Pale Order in a trial, you can run 10 DPS and 2 tanks instead of 8 DPS, 2 tanks, and 2 healers. This may not increase any individual player's DPS, but it buffs group DPS by about 25%. In a dungeon, running 3 DPS and 1 tank instead of 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer, you buff group DPS by about 50%. Yes, this is more of a problem with dedicated, organized guild groups than your average PUG group. But a single item that buffs group DPS by 25%-50% would be really, really powerful. And there is probably no reliably effective way to make sure it works in "bad" groups but not "good" groups.

Ultimately, the mythic simply breaks group dynamics in a way ZOS wants to avoid. There are some sets that work in PvE but not PvP or vice versa (usually via the "against monsters" clause or "against players" clause or "when battle spirit is active" clause) because they break PvP/PvE dynamics in ways they want to avoid. They do not split the baby and try to make it kinda sorta work in both. Pale Order is gear that works in solo/duo scenarios but not larger groups.

So while it has two drawbacks, it is because without the second drawback, the first ceasing being much of a drawback at all in a good group.

Logically how many DPS would drop a dmg monster set/dmg mythic for a self heal... I see little dps actually doing that tbh. Be logical here. I think it'd be more likely all DPS in a trial running the best dmg increase mythic over a healing one.

Examples of other mythics that might be more worth it for pure dps builds \/
Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet
(1 item) Adds 1650 Offensive Penetration, Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Minor Force at all times, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.
Malacath's Band of Brutality
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 16% but decreases your Critical Damage done by 50%.
Oakensoul Ring
(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

Where as a build using Pale Order is likely not purely DPS anyway but a bit of a hybrid build for self sustain.

Pale order does not buff your damage. It's just a passive heal similar to a cp "Reaving Blows: heals you 7% of your direct damage". I mean really what difference is there than people that use this CP vs pale order. I already suggested to lower the healing to 8% when grouped with 5+ people so it's just 1% more than the cp star.

How is this a bad suggestion vs how it is now that pale order is completely useless when grouped with 5+ people?

TaSheen · September 15

That's how the devs set it up. If they want to change it, they will. And if they do, I hope you like what they change it to - because my experience is it's not going to be what you asked for.

AlterBlika · September 15

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

Well, From what I was told from different people is never to depend on healers or tanks. Whether in PVP or PVE.

In PVE it's just wrong. It only works if you go pugging as a fake tank and you can solo all dungeons in the game (on vet with hm), yeah, in this case you can say you don't depend on healers and dds, in pugs only. Otherwise it never works. For achievements and trials you'd better get a well coordinated team where dds only do damage and don't trade their damage for something healers would provide. If you do some dd mechanic then maybe you can have a little defense, but that's it. If tank is dead and boss is coming after you, you time dodges against every attack while someone else is ressing the tank, the best you can do actually.

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

Also the reason Dragon and I only run dungeons with just us two is cause of criticism, Others didn't like our playstyle and builds so they weren't nice to us when we attempted to run dungeons with other people.

Soloing is actually pretty helpful, you learn how to make your own builds and how to actually play the game (not just stand behind bosses and do rotation). It'd do you good in the endgame. Some players don't know how to dodge and still go in vet trials.

virtus753 · September 15

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Pale Order is just healing, it doesn't buff your damage.

It buffs group damage. If you drop the healers and just have the DPS equip Pale Order in a trial, you can run 10 DPS and 2 tanks instead of 8 DPS, 2 tanks, and 2 healers. This may not increase any individual player's DPS, but it buffs group DPS by about 25%. In a dungeon, running 3 DPS and 1 tank instead of 2 DPS, 1 tank, and 1 healer, you buff group DPS by about 50%. Yes, this is more of a problem with dedicated, organized guild groups than your average PUG group. But a single item that buffs group DPS by 25%-50% would be really, really powerful. And there is probably no reliably effective way to make sure it works in "bad" groups but not "good" groups.

Ultimately, the mythic simply breaks group dynamics in a way ZOS wants to avoid. There are some sets that work in PvE but not PvP or vice versa (usually via the "against monsters" clause or "against players" clause or "when battle spirit is active" clause) because they break PvP/PvE dynamics in ways they want to avoid. They do not split the baby and try to make it kinda sorta work in both. Pale Order is gear that works in solo/duo scenarios but not larger groups.

So while it has two drawbacks, it is because without the second drawback, the first ceasing being much of a drawback at all in a good group.

Logically how many DPS would drop a dmg monster set/dmg mythic for a self heal... I see little dps actually doing that tbh. Be logical here. I think it'd be more likely all DPS in a trial running the best dmg increase mythic over a healing one.

Examples of other mythics that might be more worth it for pure dps builds \/
Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet
(1 item) Adds 1650 Offensive Penetration, Increase your damage done to monsters by 15%, gain Minor Force at all times, increasing your Critical Damage done by 10%, and reduce your Light and Heavy Attack damage by 99%.
Malacath's Band of Brutality
(1 item) Increases your damage done by 16% but decreases your Critical Damage done by 50%.
Oakensoul Ring
(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

Where as a build using Pale Order is likely not purely DPS anyway but a bit of a hybrid build for self sustain.

Pale order does not buff your damage. It's just a passive heal similar to a cp "Reaving Blows: heals you 7% of your direct damage". I mean really what difference is there than people that use this CP vs pale order. I already suggested to lower the healing to 8% when grouped with 5+ people so it's just 1% more than the cp star.

How is this a bad suggestion vs how it is now that pale order is completely useless when grouped with 5+ people?

They may be similar in the sense of percentage-based health returns, but the magnitude is not 7% vs 8%, as Reaving Blows heals off of "direct damage" while ROPO heals off of all damage. (Non-proc damage, that is, as proc damage does not proc either Reaving Blows or ROPO, from some quick tests with Pillar of Nirn and Azureblight.)

Now Reaving Blows is still noticeable, even in PvE on a Templar (where our main spammable is a DoT), but it is not doing 7/8ths of what ROPO at 8% would do. I don't know how damage breaks down in a BG, but that proportion would be critical in finding a point of rough equivalence in magnitude here.

ETA: On reflection, I'm recalling that ZOS doesn't consider actual damage proportions in calculating CP magnitude. Thaumaturge, Biting Aura, Master at Arms, and Deadly Aim are all 6%, regardless of the fact that builds are rarely exactly evenly split in terms of direct vs. DoT or single target vs. AoE. The potential is equivalent. So if Reaving Blows is returning 7% of direct damage as heals, then ROPO by that logic would return 3.5% of all damage.

Artim_X · September 15

A proper curse for a delectable kiss. Its current design is fine and permits it to do what it needs to do without overstepping and becoming bis in places where it shouldn't be.

sarahthes · September 15

OP, I know your original question has generally been answered, but I did want to say - if you like playing on your dk dragonknight, you should look into the armory system (which was mentioned a few times). You get two free 'build' slots plus can buy more (but don't need to if you don't want to).

I play my dragonknight in all kinds of content, and sometimes he's a vampire with a pretty high amount of health (tank), sometimes not a vampire with all points into mag (dps), sometimes something in between but still a vampire (archive/pvp). Exploring what you can do with the armory could let you experience all kinds of content on your primary character.