Anniversary Amnesty

Vaqual

I have had this daring thought, which surely must have crossed someone else's mind. There are many fallen brothers and sisters, who over the years have misstepped, slipped and caught a forum exclusion of the permanent nature. I am sure many have done their penance several times over and that many are reformed enough for our overlords to consider a lifting of their shared sentence. Would this year of celebration not be the perfect opportunity to grant collective amnesty, or at the very least, amnesty to those that caused only minor grievances?

Artim_X

Nope, I disagree. The mods tend to give fair warning, so if ya get perma banned from the forums, it was likely for a valid reason.

Vaqual

That is a bit the point with forgiving someone. It isn't necessarily the pragmatic or fair thing to do, it can just be an act of kindness.

There were many users who made hundreds of great contributions, but, over the course of several thousands of posts, sadly even the tiniest "error rate" can suffice to rack up enough strikes.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

There were many users who made hundreds of great contributions, but, over the course of several thousands of posts, sadly even the tiniest "error rate" can suffice to rack up enough strikes.

It really should depend on why the person was banned. I have no problem with someone who got into little fights every now and then over many years, these unfortunately accumulated enough to lead to a ban. It's a different thing though if someone was permabanned for apparent racism and the like.

Theist_VII

Getting a strikeout from “Baiting” “Trolling” “Protesting” or “Conspiracy Theories” would be the only things that I could get behind a push for amnesty.

Violators of rules like, “Flaming” “Discussing Real World Politics/Religion” or worse can stay banned, some things you say or do indicate the type of person you are and if attacking other members of our community or assaulting their beliefs is okay behavior in their heads, they don’t belong on our forums.

Theist_VII

Artim_X wrote: »

Nope, I disagree. The mods tend to give fair warning, so if ya get perma banned from the forums, it was likely for a valid reason.

Also want to chime in here, this is false.

Strikes stick to your account and other forum users have control over how they feel towards your comments. Getting banned for “Baiting” someone when you only stated an opposite opinion in a humorous way that was intended to be harmless is not something that could have been prevented or been warned against.

MasterSpatula

On almost any other forum, I'd say that's a terrible idea, but....

Artim_X

Theist_VII wrote: »

Artim_X wrote: »

Nope, I disagree. The mods tend to give fair warning, so if ya get perma banned from the forums, it was likely for a valid reason.

Also want to chime in here, this is false.

Strikes stick to your account and other forum users have control over how they feel towards your comments. Getting banned for “Baiting” someone when you only stated an opposite opinion in a humorous way that was intended to be harmless is not something that could have been prevented or been warned against.

From personal experience I've been given warnings for having an opposite opinion that may have been perceived as baiting. I now tend to think about how my comments come across to others before posting.

You can have a humorous counter argument as long as you write it in a way that does not feel like personal attack/critique.

Syldras

Theist_VII wrote: »

Violators of rules like, “Flaming” “Discussing Real World Politics/Religion” or worse can stay banned, some things you say or do indicate the type of person you are and if attacking other members of our community or assaulting their beliefs is okay behavior in their heads, they don’t belong on our forums.

"Discussing real world politics/religion" is the tiniest "offense" I can think of, akin with off-topic posting - since this is what it mostly is: off-topic smalltalk. Discussing topics (one doesn't even neccessarily agree with) is not the same as bigotry.

Most deletions for this occur in lore-discussions drawing comparisons between ESO's societies and beliefs in real world history, btw.

Theist_VII

Syldras wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Violators of rules like, “Flaming” “Discussing Real World Politics/Religion” or worse can stay banned, some things you say or do indicate the type of person you are and if attacking other members of our community or assaulting their beliefs is okay behavior in their heads, they don’t belong on our forums.

"Discussing real world politics/religion" is the tiniest "offense" I can think of, akin with off-topic posting - since this is what it mostly is: off-topic smalltalk. Discussing topics (one doesn't even neccessarily agree with) is not the same as bigotry.

Most deletions for this occur in lore-discussions drawing comparisons between ESO's societies and beliefs in real world history, btw.

Nope. When people head over here to discuss war stance and the merits of one religion over another, there is no faster way to start a fight.

We don’t need zealots attacking other faiths.

JustLovely

Vaqual wrote: »

I have had this daring thought, which surely must have crossed someone else's mind. There are many fallen brothers and sisters, who over the years have misstepped, slipped and caught a forum exclusion of the permanent nature. I am sure many have done their penance several times over and that many are reformed enough for our overlords to consider a lifting of their shared sentence. Would this year of celebration not be the perfect opportunity to grant collective amnesty, or at the very least, amnesty to those that caused only minor grievances?

Are you talking about amnesty for in game violators, or alleged forum violations?

To me it seems like most of the in game bans are fairly well warranted. But even in game we've seen over and over again how many of those bans turned out to be unwarranted as well. If you're talking about on this forum, well.....

JustLovely

Vaqual wrote: »

That is a bit the point with forgiving someone. It isn't necessarily the pragmatic or fair thing to do, it can just be an act of kindness.

There were many users who made hundreds of great contributions, but, over the course of several thousands of posts, sadly even the tiniest "error rate" can suffice to rack up enough strikes.

The points system used on this forum is treating adults like children. (people tend to act in the same manner in which they are treated)

Syldras

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope. When people head over here to discuss war stance and the merits of one religion over another, there is no faster way to start a fight.
We don’t need zealots attacking other faiths.

I agree with you, but this isn't what is meant by the rule that forbids discussion of religion and politics.

This rule literally forbids even mentioning the existance of these things. As soon as the name of a political system or religion is mentioned, it is considered a violation of that rule.

Posts have been deleted for completely neutral, factual statements like "The religion of the Skaal reminds of the xy_religion of the xy_native_people in xy_region of the earth. They also believe that..."

Theist_VII

Syldras wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Nope. When people head over here to discuss war stance and the merits of one religion over another, there is no faster way to start a fight.
We don’t need zealots attacking other faiths.

I agree with you, but this isn't what is meant by the rule that forbids discussion of religion and politics.

This rule literally forbids even mentioning the existance of these things. As soon as the name of a political system or religion is mentioned, it is considered a violation of that rule.

Posts have been deleted for completely neutral, factual statements like "The religion of the Skaal reminds of the xy_religion of the xy_native_people in xy_region of the earth. They also believe that..."

Yet every year around the holidays, countless people don’t get banned.

What you’re suggesting is that there is picking and choosing? That some religions are okay while others are not?

Syldras

Theist_VII wrote: »

Yet every year around the holidays, countless people don’t get banned.
What you’re suggesting is that there is picking and choosing? That some religions are okay while others are not?

I don't even think it's done deliberately, just sometimes the mods are more strict in enforcing the rule, sometimes not; or maybe sometimes posts just slipped through somehow unseen (also I suspect that often the religious background of holidays is not taken into consideration, as their celebration has become a common cultural tradition that almost everyone partakes in, whether the person is religious or not).

I just think it's a pity, as TES lore obviously borrows extensively from all kinds of real world cultures, including their myths and religion. Even the depiction of Vivec as being split into a dark and a light side skincolor-wise, his posture, the way he carries his spear - all this has a very clear model in real world iconography. I can mention that it has, but if I actually name the religion it's from, and the deity that is usually depicted like this, it's a question of luck whether my post is allowed or gets deleted based on the "no religion" rule. And I know this isn't only speculation. I have actually done this once and the post was deleted for this (I didn't get a ban warning, but the post was deleted).

I_killed_Vivec

Theist_VII wrote: »

Getting a strikeout from “Baiting” “Trolling” “Protesting” or “Conspiracy Theories” would be the only things that I could get behind a push for amnesty.

Violators of rules like, “Flaming” “Discussing Real World Politics/Religion” or worse can stay banned, some things you say or do indicate the type of person you are and if attacking other members of our community or assaulting their beliefs is okay behavior in their heads, they don’t belong on our forums.

First rule of ban club... don't discuss ban club.

I might know someone who might have received a ban for mentioning the name of a long dead political leader who famously planned over a specific number of years into the future.

For full context it was in response to a comment about ZoS's plans, my the response was "Even X had an x year plan".

That's all you need to do to get a "Discussing Real World Politics" ban, but of course it was only a three day ban so someone could go sit in the corner and think about what they had done.

But unlike some comments, there was no intent to inflame, and I'm not sure how anyone could take offence.

It would be very different for someone who had managed to get a permaban - either through sheer evil or relentless nastiness. I don't see why anyone who has been permabanned should be allowed back... they will have had warnings and didn't, or couldn't, stop.

Vaqual

JustLovely wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I have had this daring thought, which surely must have crossed someone else's mind. There are many fallen brothers and sisters, who over the years have misstepped, slipped and caught a forum exclusion of the permanent nature. I am sure many have done their penance several times over and that many are reformed enough for our overlords to consider a lifting of their shared sentence. Would this year of celebration not be the perfect opportunity to grant collective amnesty, or at the very least, amnesty to those that caused only minor grievances?

Are you talking about amnesty for in game violators, or alleged forum violations?

To me it seems like most of the in game bans are fairly well warranted. But even in game we've seen over and over again how many of those bans turned out to be unwarranted as well. If you're talking about on this forum, well.....

I was primarily thinking about the forums, but I am sure there are cases in the game where it could be considered. In my eyes, this is not about hardened criminals being removed from society, to me these are people playing video games who chose their words poorly on a handful of occasions. Some are in a different place in live now, maybe 2-10 years older. Maybe this can be an incentive to get some people back into the game.
With cheating and exploiting offenses it is certainly more difficult, but even then some people may have grown up.

No question, some have messed up all by themselves and deserved their fate. I am also not saying that rules shouldn't be enforced they way they are. This is more along the lines of "once upon a decade" could be a reasonable cadence for second chances.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

In my eyes, this is not about hardened criminals being removed from society, to me these are people playing video games who chose their words poorly on a handful of occasions. Some are in a different place in live now, maybe 2-10 years older.

I can remember a few cases where users were banned for hatespeech (usually racism or homophobia). There was usually something along the lines of "back in my days..." in their posts, so I didn't have the impression these were little kids. They also didn't seem to use slurs to be edgy or because they were stupid and clueless, but it seemed to be a real, strong opinion. If someone thinks like this age 40+, what are the chances they suddenly become tolerant a few years later?

Vaqual

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

In my eyes, this is not about hardened criminals being removed from society, to me these are people playing video games who chose their words poorly on a handful of occasions. Some are in a different place in live now, maybe 2-10 years older.

I can remember a few cases where users were banned for hatespeech (usually racism or homophobia). There was usually something along the lines of "back in my days..." in their posts, so I didn't have the impression these were little kids. They also didn't seem to use slurs to be edgy or because they were stupid and clueless, but it seemed to be a real, strong opinion. If someone thinks like this age 40+, what are the chances they suddenly become tolerant a few years later?

I feel it is pointless to reply to this, as this a a purely hypothetical scenario where the outcome is nothing but speculative, but I'll play along. Even if it were as you say, there is no real harm that could be done by letting even a person, who got banned for this, back in. Who can tell the difference between a new player and an reinvited player if they behave? And if they mess up again they can have their post taken down and be exiled again. This is a very low stakes situation.

I think however that this is a bit of strawman, distracting from the group of people who this is really about. From my personal observations I think the players, who lost their access for "baiting" offenses simply due to the fact that a lot of meaning is lost (or added for that matter) in the written word, will far outweigh the real troublemakers. Closely followed by those who accidentally or unknowingly touched on certain forbidden topics.

But based on the number of agrees on the second post I have to say, that I am a bit surprised. Maybe I am the one who doesn't belong here. Is anyone really having there day ruined by a rowdy post on the ESO forums? I just can not relate.

That some people will be pedantically trying to find the worst in any given subject is a normal thing on the internet and I know it will always happen, but wouldn't you like the place be better with more people? People who were passionate enough about the game to get caught in a heated scuffle on the forums? I had more fun here in the past and there is an anemic feel to this place these days. That is certainly also correlated with the games general popularity, but long story short, I thought "there is no harm in asking".

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

I think however that this is a bit of strawman, distracting from the group of people who this is really about.

No, it is no strawman, especially considering I've written this just a few posts earlier:

Syldras wrote: »

It really should depend on why the person was banned. I have no problem with someone who got into little fights every now and then over many years, these unfortunately accumulated enough to lead to a ban. It's a different thing though if someone was permabanned for apparent racism and the like.

I thought it was clear that, if I only have a problem with people who were banned for serious offences like racism and other types of hatespeech, I would focus on these people if I add another post to specify.

Vaqual

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I think however that this is a bit of strawman, distracting from the group of people who this is really about.

No, it is no strawman, especially considering I've written this just a few posts earlier:

Syldras wrote: »

It really should depend on why the person was banned. I have no problem with someone who got into little fights every now and then over many years, these unfortunately accumulated enough to lead to a ban. It's a different thing though if someone was permabanned for apparent racism and the like.

I thought it was clear that, if I only have a problem with people who were banned for serious offences like racism and other types of hatespeech, I would focus on these people if I add another post to specify.

Ok sorry I probably went a bit overboard with it, but I found that context between posts is often ignored, so I just wanted to be very clear to the potential reader regarding the topic you raised. I know what you said above and I appreciate the contribution.

SilverBride

I don't know about lifting bans as a second chance, but I think it would be nice if they would let posters submit past tickets to be reevaluated and maybe removed from their moderation history.

Desiato

Last year I read an article that talked about how game companies were having to re-think social bans because they have such long term relationships with customers that make long term bans counterproductive.

Though there should be red lines, many players are permanently banned for being a little too cheeky. I can think back to notable posters here who were permanently banned after posting spiderman and el risitas memes. It doesn't make sense to punish players indefinitely for minor violations.

I think that most of the events that can result in a permanent ban should be changed to long term suspensions that eventually expire.

xclassgaming

i thought this thread was gonna be about a amnesty event in cyrodiil; that'd be cool

ZOS_Kevin

Just wanted to chime in here. We do give quite a few warnings and chances to make sure player's conduct on the forums aligns with the community guidelines. We also do reverse decisions from time to time depending on good standing and having conversations to eliminate chances of mistakes or miscommunications. I've aided in several of those myself. So all that being said, we have no plans for a mass amnesty or pardon. If folks would like to come back to the forums and it's been awhile, everyone has the ability to appeal and we can have a conversation on an individual basis.

Redguards_Revenge

Artim_X wrote: »

Nope, I disagree. The mods tend to give fair warning, so if ya get perma banned from the forums, it was likely for a valid reason.

You would think that but when they were trying to sell themselves to microsoft, the hand was much swifter.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to chime in here. We do give quite a few warnings and chances to make sure player's conduct on the forums aligns with the community guidelines. We also do reverse decisions from time to time depending on good standing and having conversations to eliminate chances of mistakes or miscommunications. I've aided in several of those myself. So all that being said, we have no plans for a mass amnesty or pardon. If folks would like to come back to the forums and it's been awhile, everyone has the ability to appeal and we can have a conversation on an individual basis.

I think it's worth considering whether or not very minor offenses should expire. I know for certain that some posts are very borderline and not even two mods will agree that it violated a rule. I used to be a mod for another international MMO, so while I'm not familiar with ZOS's setup persay, I know that would be something that happened there. I also know that there is no such things as perfect people. Everyone one of us makes mistakes. Both mods and players alike. Minor things like that, regardless if they are upheld, shouldn't contribute to someone losing their account two years later just because nothing ever expires. Very serious rule breaks shouldn't expire, and in some cases should be permanent bans in and of themselves. But, not all violations are big.

FelisCatus

Artim_X wrote: »

Nope, I disagree. The mods tend to give fair warning, so if ya get perma banned from the forums, it was likely for a valid reason.

Have you ever been warned? I swear some have a personal grudge against me just because I criticise a game I love constructively. A lot of these moderators are either instructed to clamp down hard or just get offended easily. I've been warned for calling a guy a troll who was literally baiting in a thread. He got away with it but I got warned for calling him out on it.