The problem with Templar in 2024

The_Isatope8

It's no secret that Templar isn't on par with the other classes. Necro and Templar are often seen as the worst classes in ESO, but Necro is at least getting some attention in the new patches. With the latest patch Templar got a small duration increase to a mid skill that almost no one uses, Templar is starting to fall behind the other classes even more now. Templar was once a monster in PvP and solo content, an irreplaceable healer and a sturdy damage dealer, but they have been nerfed time and time again to reduce them to what they are today. I just want to highlight their issues and bring some attention to the problems with the class.

• Poor Sustain
  Templar is notorious for having sustain issues, dps and PvP players know this all too well. most classes have multiple ways to get resources back other than potions and heavy attacking (DK gets Mountain's Blessing and Combustion passives, Nightblade gets Executioner and Siphoning Strikes, warden gets Natures' Gift and Flourish, sorc gets Rebate, Capacitor, Daedric Protection and Dark Deal. Arcanists' sustain speaks for itself and even Necro gets resources back with Death Gleaning, Undead confederate and get great cost reduction via Reusable Parts)
  Templar gets restoring spirit, which reduces the cost of their abilities by 5%, I know that it applies to all skills but it's still outperformed by similar passives. They also have Repentance which restores a huge amount of health and stamina, but only when when there's corpses nearby. The while slotted bonuses are fine but they can easily be sourced elsewhere. The skill is only really useful for Tanks (of which there are very few) in trash pulls. It's also rarely used by stamplars because they would rather use the slot for a damage or heal skill.
• Outdated Passives
  Templars' design feels old and outdated, but this is most noticeable with their ultimate's and passives. the best examples of this are the Mending, Master Ritualist, Light Weaver and Enduring Rays passives.
  Mending only applies to Restoring light skills, which is a bit restrictive. Master Ritualist is completely useless if you're in a semi-competent group. Light Weaver has the same problem as Mending. Enduring Rays is just a 2 second duration increase to some skills, DK gets Searing Heat which increases their damage done by 25% with some skills and increases the duration by 4 seconds (double what Templar gets). Their passives definitely need to be reworked, they are outdated and outclassed by the other classes in a noticeable way.
• Sub-par Ultimate's
  • Radial Sweep
    The only good thing about this ultimate is its low cost. Its burst is fine, but it doesn't have anything else. Outclassed by dawnbreaker, Death Stroke (more damage than sweep, cheaper and bonus damage), Dragon Leap, Colossus etc.
  • Nova
    Below Average damage for similar ultimate's, costs much more than it's worth and applies Major Maim (which can easily be sourced elsewhere).
  • Rite of Passage
    ESO is has an action based combat system, so having an ability that takes your action out of the combat feels really wonky. This ultimate also only provides the group with insane healing at the expense of you not being able to do anything for the duration. It's also a pure healing skill with nothing attached, no buffs, no unique effects, just big numbers. It's only really useful in PvP to burst your group up, but in PvP just use warden that can provide the group with much more than bigger numbers.
• Sub-par Group Utility
  The only unique buff that Templar can give to a group is Minor Sorcery, Dk gets Minor Brutality which does essentially the same thing and DK is much more popular than Templar in groups anyway. They do have some sustain buffs for the group, but these buffs can be given by Nightblade, Warden and Arcanist who can all give additional effects on top of the sustain. The only other things that Templar have in terms of group utility is Luminous Shards (mag and stam return is only really useful for tanks), above average healing and a unique cleanse, but great healing and cleanses can be provided by other classes too.
• The worst Tanks
  Templar simply lacks the kit for tanking. They don't have a built-in snare that's worth using as a tank, their immobilize is on the wrong morph and they have trouble keeping their resources topped off. It's also obvious that Sun Shield is intended to be the Templar's main shield. The problem with it is that it's only useful in trash pulls and it has a smaller base shield than other similar skills. Templar also doesn't have much in terms of CC or built in debuffs like DK, Arc, Warden, Necro etc. The only positive thing about Templar tanks is that they have incredible sustained self-healing, but this usually isn't necessary if the group has a semi-competent healer. They don't even have a health scaling self heal.
• Wonky Damage
  Templar has a very strange way of doing damage compared to other classes. Their output is mediocre until execute range where they can attain the highest dps in game by far. The beam is too strong and their regular kit is too weak. It creates this very unpleasant gameplay loop where you take ages to get a boss/ player down to the point where you can nuke them with the beam. The gap between pre-execute and execute is way too big and needs to be lessened. A nerf to beam would be fine so long as the rest of their kit is made stronger to compensate.
  
  In PvP this problem is especially noticeable. Fighting a templar solo is usually frustrating because they can take massive amounts of damage, but can't really dish it out by themselves. You usually see Templars in groups waiting until an enemy's health dips below 40% and then beam them down because that's all they can do very effectively. Their main bursting tool, Backlash isn't nearly as effective as other delayed burst abilities. You have to do damage to make it pop at it's full potential, but as stated earlier, Templar usually doesn't have enough up front damage to use the skill at it's full potential.
  
  Templar can definitely be an effective damage dealer, they just have to work a lot harder to do so. This is a common problem with the class.
• Stand Your Ground
  Templar is naturally one of the slowest classes already, but they have a built in way to compensate for their lack of speed. Templars like to build their house, so to speak, by putting down aoe's that proc their Sacred Ground passive. While in their house they get more healing and block mitigation, not to mention their 2 biggest tools for building their house provide resource return, healing and a cleanse. The idea behind this is too encourage Templar's to hold the line and act as a bulwark. Unfortunately this is not the case for most players. The bonuses you get from your house aren't always the best option. It's great for tanks (the few of them), but that's about it. In PvP speed is king and standing still is a massive detriment, so having a big part of the class's survivability be by standing still, you've made yourself a sitting duck. The bonuses just aren't good enough to justify standing still so the house needs to be buffed, reworked or removed.
• Buff cycling
  Templar has a problem similar to Necro where they need to constantly keep their buffs up in order to stay alive or deal damage. Other classes have their buffs built into skills that they are using a lot anyway because of additional effects, but a lot of Templars buffs need to be recast specifically for the purposes of keeping a good uptime. Since Templar needs to refresh their buffs so often, they have to stop what their doing in order to get the buffs back. This allows enemies in PvP to heal themselves and forces players in PvE to stop doing meaningful things to remain strong. Templar is meant to be relentless but they have to pull back often to keep themselves in the fight.
• An identity crisis
  Templar is in a weird spot compared to other classes. What is the Templar meant to be? Dragonknight is a frontline bruiser, Nightblade is a stealthy assassin, Sorcerer is a battle mage and Arcanist is a mysterious scholar. But what is Templar? Many of their skills suggest that they are supposed to be a frontliner, but they don't hit hard enough to be on the forefront of a battle. They have great pure heals, but not much else so that rules out being a combat medic. They're built to stand their ground, but often run around so they can't be great defender. Templar is a weird mix of ideas that work on paper but feel a little conflicting in actual gameplay. Each class has a clearly defined theme and style and their skills make sense within that aesthetic. Templar is a beacon of light, but can corrput that light and use it to defile their enemies. They are bringers of life, but can siphon energy from the dead. They are supposed to empower their allies, but a nature hippy and a deadra simp can do that better than them.
  
  Templar has a bunch of conflicting themes and ideas that make them what they are, in the end they are a confused class with too many conflicting ideas to make them truly cohesive.

Templar is my favorite class and it has been since I started playing. I saw the glory days before they got nerfed and it's sad to see them in the state they are now. The nerfs were necessary because they were a little too strong, but now they are overdue for changes. With more and more classes being brought up to fit the meta that Arcanist has created, Templar has been left behind and as such feels very old compared to the other classes.

I do hope that templar will be revisited in the next patch to make them great once more.

Syiccal

💯, Templar very much feels like an OG class that has had no current day changes to bring inline like the other classes have had.

LukosCreyden

Honorable mention: jabs look awful now. Literal animation downgrade. Also, all the skill icons look the same. Yellow blobs.

The_Isatope8

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Honorable mention: jabs look awful now. Literal animation downgrade. Also, all the skill icons look the same. Yellow blobs.

The community has been saying this since u35 and its still applicable. We're never going to like the weird shovelling animation. It would be better if the first 2 strikes were the same, but the third strike was a one handed thrust forward while slightly twisting the body to the left.

I also think that Templar could use a unique spear model to use for all of their spear abilities. If not, then replace the spear with the imperial champion staff model, it looks like a spear and fits Templar much more than Nighthollow

MJallday

the templar is in a very sorry state and the issues are well documented.

my templar (which was a my main for 7-8 years) - is no more than a storage char now

Oznog666

Although I agree and my MagPlar is not my DD number 1 anymore I could manage 2 times already to beat marauder Bittog in the archive. Didn't expect this, will use him more often to see how he can be optimzed. Hopefully zos will bring Templar back to it's previous stage AND change the jabs animation.

oldbobdude

Well said OP

TheMajority

agree, templar was my favorite and would like to see it get a revisit.

Theist_VII

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

It's no secret that Templar isn't on par with the other classes…

Each class has a clearly defined theme and style and their skills make sense within that aesthetic. Templar is a beacon of light, but can corrput that light and use it to defile their enemies. They are bringers of life, but can siphon energy from the dead. They are supposed to empower their allies, but a nature hippy and a deadra simp can do that better than them.

Templar has a bunch of conflicting themes and ideas that make them what they are, in the end they are a confused class with too many conflicting ideas to make them truly cohesive.

Couldn’t have said it better. Templar as a whole suffers from a severe commitment issue.

That doesn’t appear to be changing any time soon though, unfortunately. Just a patch or two ago Zenimax mentioned the tanking deficit of the class and their answer to the problem was to add an Immobilize to a Damage Dealer skill.

A great surprise to no one, Templar Tank pick rates didn’t move at all, it’s weird how when you attach tank utility to a morph that has nothing to do with tanking, you end up with a half-baked, not-worth-the-bar-space skill.

It’s like they have a spinning dartboard and aimlessly throw darts with a blindfold to decide set creation and class balance.

Ph1p

I think Templar used to be a great beginner and solo class for ESO: Decent DPS, good cleave, easy rotation, and awesome survivability with self-heals built directly into damage skills. It wouldn’t excel at many things but was a solid option.

Now, after the arrival of the Pale Order Ring, HA/Oakensoul builds, and the Arcanist class, there are lots of alternatives and Templar hasn’t kept pace. But at least it’s still one of the strongest options in some niches, like single-target group boss fights where the other DDs don’t have execute damage

moderatelyfatman

Templar is strong as a DD for trials where you need to do a lot of dps during the execute stage. Otherwise, it is a one-trick pony that doesn't have anything else going for it as an endgame dps.
Necro and warden are definitely worse.
As is Nightblade, or Niceblade as I call it because their dps in content is so lousy they're basically pacifists.

proteinexe

Agree, agree, agree.

Change 2 things; jabs (i’ve given a fairly robust recommended change in a discussion I started) and backlash (which need’s a heavy buff to fall in line with other class bursts). I’d agree beam to nerf IF they’re willing to buff core Templar abilities and not buff some niece morph of a skill people dont use to make it more ‘viable’.

The_Isatope8

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Templar is strong as a DD for trials where you need to do a lot of dps during the execute stage. Otherwise, it is a one-trick pony that doesn't have anything else going for it as an endgame dps.
Necro and warden are definitely worse.
As is Nightblade, or Niceblade as I call it because their dps in content is so lousy they're basically pacifists.

Indeed, Templar does do good damage in trials, but that does not mean that they are good before execute. Having lots of damage in execute can definitely be a boon, but in PvP where players can just burst themselves out of execute range, Templar lacks damage compared to other classes. This is where the problem lies. Too much execute damage with too little up front damage.

DinoZavr

Templar is my favorite class as well.
someone on the forums once noted: "Templars have OP beam, the rest skills are ****"
and it is, generally, true nowadays. The noticeable lack of burst renders templars rather stupid in PVP.
The beam is great, but players rarely forget to heal themselves if theirs health drops down to execute phase levels.
For solo PVE sustain is quite the issue.

What is really upsetting is that in the most updates (since memorable U35) Zenimax do not seriously change Templars,
sometimes it is the only class having no noticeable changes, which hints game-makers consider the class OKeyish,
which really differs with many players opinions.

@ZOS could examine ESOlogs to check how popular templars are in the groups,
which spec (i can bet magplars dominate stamplars) and role they perform and how well.
Most likely they could notice the imbalance that templar tanks are few compared to other classes.
I don't say tanking on a Templar is impossible - but it is seriously harder than on DKs.
This statistics can show most of issue we are discussing here now.
Unfortunately, there are no such figures for PVP (or, at least, publicly accessible)

and just to remind about changing jabs animation and nerfing the skill with U35
thank you @Deltia for that "wet noodle" (tm) video


TL/DR; templars need balancing. especially stamplars as theirs nerf was a collateral effect of nerfing the magplars.

MJallday

Im not convinced it does "good" damage in trials at all (at least for the first 80% of a fight) - not since about update 32/33. in the last 20% its a good execute (maybe 20% above everyone) , but actually even that doenst make up for the rest of the fight where you are at least 30-40% off the damage other classes are doing.

in short its unbalanced.

in pve "normal" for trash fights, its got some ok AoE damage (wall, shards and jabs etc) but thatss just small adds and the fights last <5 seconds. and it becomes painfully obvious in vet content, where things take a long time to die.

in PvP - the javelin stun is great (could do with a bit more rang) and thats because theres nothing "mid range" after youve done a stun - so you sort of have to rely on others - before the execute - which isnt as powerful as pve cos mitigiation. but its still great <20%

TLDR - the templar lacks "mid range" punch versus all other classes, in both PvP and PvE - IMO of course

BananaBender

MJallday wrote: »

Im not convinced it does "good" damage in trials at all (at least for the first 80% of a fight) - not since about update 32/33. in the last 20% its a good execute (maybe 20% above everyone) , but actually even that doenst make up for the rest of the fight where you are at least 30-40% off the damage other classes are doing.

in short its unbalanced.

in pve "normal" for trash fights, its got some ok AoE damage (wall, shards and jabs etc) but thatss just small adds and the fights last <5 seconds. and it becomes painfully obvious in vet content, where things take a long time to die.

in PvP - the javelin stun is great (could do with a bit more rang) and thats because theres nothing "mid range" after youve done a stun - so you sort of have to rely on others - before the execute - which isnt as powerful as pve cos mitigiation. but its still great <20%

TLDR - the templar lacks "mid range" punch versus all other classes, in both PvP and PvE - IMO of course

I think Templar is in pretty balanced position right now in PvE. There are some small buffs I would like to see like buffing the class ults, (right now sadly none of them are worth using), the damage reduction to secondary targets on jabs feels unnecessary and just pushes you to use Whirling Blades, and some cost reduction on skills could also be nice to address the sustain issues a little bit. But all in all it's completely fine and healthy for a class to have weaknesses. Right now there just isn't competing against Arcanist, but that's not really a fault on Templar's side.


Some examples from a prog where I'm playing Templar:

It is a quick fight but it's from 100% to 0% and not just a brief DPS number from execute or something.

On other bosses Arcanist does perform better, but it's not like Templar is bad, unplayable or a hinderance to the group.


In trash fights it of course get outperformed by Arcanists and DKs, but it can definitely hold its own.

Builds that I used for anyone interested:

For the boss


For trash

So, in general Templar isn't as universally viable as Arcanists, or DK, but it's most definitely a solid option and has a spot in today's meta. Pushing it away from the execute and focusing more on its early damage would just make it compete more against Arcanist and DK, which those two are always going to beat. They have much better synergy with the strongest sets right now, so even buffing Templars cleave by a lot won't push them to being meta if it comes at the cost of their execute. In this prog we are using Templar because we want to make Ansuul's execute phase as quick as possible. If they drastically nerf the beam and push the damage to rest of the Templars kit (but keep the overall damage output the same), there would be no point in bringing a Templar in anymore since it would be just a worse version of Arcanist at that point.

TechMaybeHic

Ran my templar the other day and really what I notice is the defensive is high, but I have to use an entire back bar pretty much to do it. Of those; Extended Ritual no longer paces with the negative effects that can instantly be applied cheaper

I really used to prefer stamplar which the concept is gone from all classes. But to run heavy stam, the sustain is lacking. Mag is slightly better because you at least get some mag back from Honor the Dead but still not great

And I can really run up offensive numbers on my templar, and get some high tootips on damage, but in practice, it won't kill anyone because it's about the burst in pvp. Backlash is too unreliable after multiple attempts; and might be the worst even more than Blastbones depending on situation. Definitely the worst single target. Your only chance is Radiant Oppression after friendlies get the target low, or meteor javelin combo

And finally; it templar the only class now with no root/snare immunity? Might not be and it used to be everyone just used RAT, but the bar space has gotten less manageable so it's a choice to give up something other classes do not have to. Also no major breach and our minor breach no longer lasts the duration of the ability. This goes with my first point for defense, and that is also why people are not bothering with solar barrage ZoS keeps trying to buff. 5% damage to class skills only is not going to crack the lineup

So to summarize

-Too many GCDs to defend/bar space full
-Poor sustain
-Terrible burst
-Mobility and Utility inaccessible

MJallday

BananaBender wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Im not convinced it does "good" damage in trials at all (at least for the first 80% of a fight) - not since about update 32/33. in the last 20% its a good execute (maybe 20% above everyone) , but actually even that doenst make up for the rest of the fight where you are at least 30-40% off the damage other classes are doing.

in short its unbalanced.

in pve "normal" for trash fights, its got some ok AoE damage (wall, shards and jabs etc) but thatss just small adds and the fights last <5 seconds. and it becomes painfully obvious in vet content, where things take a long time to die.

in PvP - the javelin stun is great (could do with a bit more rang) and thats because theres nothing "mid range" after youve done a stun - so you sort of have to rely on others - before the execute - which isnt as powerful as pve cos mitigiation. but its still great <20%

TLDR - the templar lacks "mid range" punch versus all other classes, in both PvP and PvE - IMO of course

I think Templar is in pretty balanced position right now in PvE. There are some small buffs I would like to see like buffing the class ults, (right now sadly none of them are worth using), the damage reduction to secondary targets on jabs feels unnecessary and just pushes you to use Whirling Blades, and some cost reduction on skills could also be nice to address the sustain issues a little bit. But all in all it's completely fine and healthy for a class to have weaknesses. Right now there just isn't competing against Arcanist, but that's not really a fault on Templar's side.


Some examples from a prog where I'm playing Templar:

It is a quick fight but it's from 100% to 0% and not just a brief DPS number from execute or something.

On other bosses Arcanist does perform better, but it's not like Templar is bad, unplayable or a hinderance to the group.


In trash fights it of course get outperformed by Arcanists and DKs, but it can definitely hold its own.

Builds that I used for anyone interested:

For the boss


For trash

So, in general Templar isn't as universally viable as Arcanists, or DK, but it's most definitely a solid option and has a spot in today's meta. Pushing it away from the execute and focusing more on its early damage would just make it compete more against Arcanist and DK, which those two are always going to beat. They have much better synergy with the strongest sets right now, so even buffing Templars cleave by a lot won't push them to being meta if it comes at the cost of their execute. In this prog we are using Templar because we want to make Ansuul's execute phase as quick as possible. If they drastically nerf the beam and push the damage to rest of the Templars kit (but keep the overall damage output the same), there would be no point in bringing a Templar in anymore since it would be just a worse version of Arcanist at that point.

does it have a place in the DPS meta? yes i think so
would you pick others (DK / arc/ necro) over it? absolutely - everytime

i share your concern about beam nerf to make the mid stronger. but theres a balance to be had. im just not sure we're at it.

Stafford197

Well let’s look at game balance as a whole here. How do you make all classes truly useful when everything else in combat is poorly designed?

Enemies have the same resistances to each damage type, therefore damage types are mostly cosmetic. This is a game where Fire Damage doesn’t deal more damage to Ice enemies.
• Templar damage is Holy, so it should immediately deal more damage to Undead and always set them alight with holy fire.

DPS is king in nearly every fight, leading to unique class functionalities never being relied on.
• Templar unique abilities never have cool situations to shine, such as a special boss mechanic where cleansing the souls of the dead will weaken boss mechanics in some way.

Classes are homogenized to have many similar skills and are therefore meant to DPS with minimal rotation variety between classes.
• Templar adheres to the same standards set for each class. In other words, the reason Radiant Oppression is so relied on is because this is the only route left to make Templar “unique” in any way whatsoever, given the generic class standards it has to live up to.

There’s other angles to view this from as well but the idea here is that ESO’s combat direction is absolutely abysmal and Templar has to fit into this mold. The game balance really could not have been handled much worse than it currently is. This is why a class like Arcanist DPS is king right now in PvE, since all classes more or less are the same thing except Arcanist does it easier, has more cleave damage, and gets a free damage shield to boot.

Ezhh

What always gets me is that while dealing damage with beam, arcs do full ranged damage on everything.

Meanwhile plar jabs at melee, the class already being pretty weak pre execute when you'd use jabs, does full damage on one enemy and reduced damage on others.

BananaBender

MJallday wrote: »

does it have a place in the DPS meta? yes i think so
would you pick others (DK / arc/ necro) over it? absolutely - everytime

i share your concern about beam nerf to make the mid stronger. but theres a balance to be had. im just not sure we're at it.

As I said earlier, of course you would pick Arcanist in most of the situations over literally any other class because Arcanist excels at literally every form of damage dealing. In a world where Arcanist didn't exist, Templar would be a really close second to DK in most content. Synergy with sets and better cleave would probably make DK the top choice still.

The reason why Templar isn't going to be the main parse class in optimized groups any time soon is that it doesn't function with the best sets right now. Azureblight works way better on Arc, DK and Necro now that jabs no longer proc it, barely any of Templars damage gets amplified by fire damage boosts such as Encratis and Engulfing Flames, Coral Riptide is awful to sustain during execute etc... So without a major overhaul of Templars entire kit, or the complete reworking of the meta sets, Templar isn't going to be the main parse class. That doesn't mean it isn't good or viable. You can do every single trifecta in the game with comfort on Templar right now.

Theist_VII

Ezhh wrote: »

What always gets me is that while dealing damage with beam, arcs do full ranged damage on everything.

Meanwhile plar jabs at melee, the class already being pretty weak pre execute when you'd use jabs, does full damage on one enemy and reduced damage on others.

Yup, absolute double standard.

Being melee range should afford the skill a higher power budget. At least enough budget to make both morphs of spears full cleave damage.

Stafford197

Ezhh wrote: »

What always gets me is that while dealing damage with beam, arcs do full ranged damage on everything.

Meanwhile plar jabs at melee, the class already being pretty weak pre execute when you'd use jabs, does full damage on one enemy and reduced damage on others.

This was brought up so many times when Arcanist released because the double standard is so blatant.

If Templar was a paid class it’d have full cleave damage to all enemies on their jabs.

Ezhh

Exactly. The double standard is huge. I'd understand it if arc skills weren't also loaded with utility. At least then there'd be the argument that jabs has a heal or major buff depending on morph, but plar utility looks pretty poor these days as well.

And sustain on a plar DD (in the rare cases when a group lets you play one) is horrible as well.

HumbleThaumaturge

Totally agree with original post.

In the first few weeks after I started playing ESO (starting March 30, 2014), I chose Templar. What a great class at launch! Since launch, the Templar has been nerf'd and nerf'd and nerf'd again. It's obvious that there's been a lot of hatred of Templars. I maintain a list of Templar nerfs: There have been over EIGHT DOZEN nerfs impacting my magicka Templar healers since launch. They nerf'd my gaming fun every time they nerf'd my Templars. It's sad that magicka Templars were so powerful when the game launched, yet so relative weak now. I got so discouraged . . . I only play maybe three weeks a year now . . . and I don't play DLC vet dungeons, or vet trials, or PvP with my magicka Templars. I know: A lot of folks can still make them work, but mine are far weaker now than any stamina build I have.