remove rush of agony from game

Rlacoste

remove all sets that don't work properly, that simple, make Cyro a PVP zone. Not just on paper but an actual PVP zone where you need to aim, no set carries and no one shot builds.
It feels like a mobile game to me.

StaticWave

Believe it or not, Rush of Agony gives pugs more chances to kill an organized group. At the same time, it also makes organized groups better at killing pugs. It's a double edge sword but nothing is going to change between organized groups vs pugs, no matter how much they try to give pugs an edge.

xylena_lazarow

It needs a large obvious telegraph and longer delay like Dark Convergence.

AngryPenguin

I agree. Remove all the free pull sets in the game, not just RoA. Free pull sets are just super bad game design and right up there with allowing cloak in a PvP system.

divnyi

StaticWave wrote: »

Believe it or not, Rush of Agony gives pugs more chances to kill an organized group.

Sorry but I'll stick with not believing.
Rush requires enemy not to be in stun immunity.
Pugs do stun people left and right without good reason.
Organized groups can also have immun from pots.

Major_Mangle

I´ll take it one step further and suggest that pulls as a general mechanic shouldn´t exist in PvP at all. Not from skills or not from sets. The new scribing skills that offers the utility of pulls tends to not showcase that your character is stunned. If you use "vanilla skills" that has stunns/roots or cc´s your character displays them decently (most of the time at least), but majority of the new scribing skills barely give any indication of you being stunned.

When it comes to RoA, it´s funny how ZOS tried to "nerf" the set but instead made it stronger. If the set is here to stay it should apply cc immunity after the pull happens. There is a reason the double pull got removed from the original dark convergence (yes it pulled twice when it was released). It´s extremely obnoxious to get double cc´s with very little visual counterplay.

Theignson

I hate RoA, it is the worst set in the game currently.

In my experience I never get any visual or audio clue that I am going to be pulled by it. I just get pulled by a ball that is as much as 15m away. If they stampede to any point within 15 meters, there is a ground effect placed AT THAT POINT but it can appear way out of range (especially with lag)

---

BUT then you get pulled without warning.

It makes melee play against balls impossible.

Then when you are pulled you immediately get CC'ed again and so your character is out of control twice in a row with no recourse.

Experienced players such as React and Joy Division have commented that it violates some of the most basic rules of fair gameplay and I agree.

I frankly don't think ZOS actually understands this set or how it works in real game play, despite the literally hundreds of posts explaining it.

Add it to the list of things that the vast majority of players would like to be changed ---

The ONLY thing it needs is a clear visual warning such as Dark Convergence has

Durham

REMOVE ALL PULL SETS FROM PVP! PERIOD!

YandereGirlfriend

The telegraph IS there you just need to train your eyes to see it. Once you know what to look for it is obvious.

In GvG among ballgroups the set basically does nothing because every member of both groups is already trained to recognize the pull and throw up block when the stack attempt comes. The chains go out, hit someone who is blocking, and then does nothing.

El_Borracho

ROA has a 0.8 second delay for the pull, for which there is an obvious animation, and then another 2 second delay for the damage, then an 8 second cooldown. The players who get killed by ROA either didn't block, or run pots, or stuck around to be CC'd for the follow up.

I've used this set on a DK and it works well in an organized, smaller to medium groups because, as @divnyi mentioned, pug groups will overcast stuns or CC's so its hard to pull in a large group of targets with ROA.

Necrotech_Master

Durham wrote: »

REMOVE ALL PULL SETS FROM PVP! PERIOD!

there are pulls that dont come from sets

some classes have single target pulls

and many scribing grimoires can be set up with "pull" as a focus script (including some which are aoe)

silky_soft

But it's super funny to watch sorc move faster then speed cap away with streak only to be pulled back.

xylena_lazarow

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

In GvG among ballgroups the set basically does nothing

Right, it's a pug stomp set, because the general use case is to ambush groups of randoms, block and you get fear stunned into a bunch of VD procs from all the guys who didn't block, so I guess you can roll and uh, nope you can't even do that because the pull is undodgeable, for reasons beyond mortal comprehension. And if by pure skill you manage to completely counter the first pull, don't worry, there's usually a second pull that you have zero immunity against!

TechMaybeHic

DC was annoying enough, but then ZOS decided to make another that does not light up as AOE, projectile fails to draw to the right place due to position desync, and then does not grant CC immunity. Really great

StaticWave

divnyi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Believe it or not, Rush of Agony gives pugs more chances to kill an organized group.

Sorry but I'll stick with not believing.
Rush requires enemy not to be in stun immunity.
Pugs do stun people left and right without good reason.
Organized groups can also have immun from pots.

Groups have been bombing pugs before sets like RoA came out. Nothing is going to change lol. You simply can’t fix skill difference, period.

If RoA was removed, then ball groups would just play around choke points like they’ve been doing for the past 7 years.

SaffronCitrusflower

There should be no free pulls. Anything that moves another players physical location should take up a skill slot, cost resources, and require a players input to make it happen.

Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

divnyi

@StaticWave you people say this about any change that would make pug life simpler, like HoT stacking, shield stacking, AoE pulls, AoE buffs, snow threaders etc etc.

Coordinated group would still be more effective? Such a new idea! Means they should not balance it at all, right?

xylena_lazarow

Much like Tarnished stacking, it's not that it's literally unbeatable, but the VERY specific limited counterplay and absurdly high impact makes for a lot of "haha screw you" play patterns, simply a bad PvP experience.

YandereGirlfriend

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

There should be no free pulls. Anything that moves another players physical location should take up a skill slot, cost resources, and require a players input to make it happen.

Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

This is a weird and arbitrary line to draw. A skill slot has much less opportunity cost than an entire set slot. You get 10 skill slots but you only get 2 5-piece sets.

If you wanted to be consistent I could maybe agree with you: there shall be no abilities or sets that alter the position of another player: no pulls, no knock-backs, no knock-ups, no charms. Only Stuns/Fears and Snares/Immobilizes.

TBH, that might actually be a good change for the game. Certainly, it would eliminate most of the common sources of de-syn while PvP'ing.

SaffronCitrusflower

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

There should be no free pulls. Anything that moves another players physical location should take up a skill slot, cost resources, and require a players input to make it happen.

Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

This is a weird and arbitrary line to draw. A skill slot has much less opportunity cost than an entire set slot. You get 10 skill slots but you only get 2 5-piece sets.

If you wanted to be consistent I could maybe agree with you: there shall be no abilities or sets that alter the position of another player: no pulls, no knock-backs, no knock-ups, no charms. Only Stuns/Fears and Snares/Immobilizes.

TBH, that might actually be a good change for the game. Certainly, it would eliminate most of the common sources of de-syn while PvP'ing.

Nothing weird or arbitrary about it. There is a reason that no other game in history has ever designed in automatic free pull sets. It's a fundamentally unfair effect to put into a game.

Theignson

Can someone post a video of the RoA visual clue?

Normally what happens to me is: a ball group is running around. I try to stay 15m from them. They are fighting 15m away, then suddenly I get pulled into their circle of death with no warning.

People have said there is a chain. Is this the chain that pulls you? When I am being pulled by RoA, I can't break free, slippery does not work etc.

In that case the "chain" is not a visual indicator. What I mean is RoA should have a perimeter (12 METERS DIAMETER!!!!!!) circle on the ground for 0.8 seconds before you are pulled.

That would be plenty of time for me to react. I never get pulled by DC.

I would say 70-80% of my deaths are from being pulled with no warning by RoA. I don't generally die much and I'm not in a group ~80% of the time. I just want a chance to avoid these nice 12v1 situations.

Necrotech_Master

Theignson wrote: »

Can someone post a video of the RoA visual clue?

Normally what happens to me is: a ball group is running around. I try to stay 15m from them. They are fighting 15m away, then suddenly I get pulled into their circle of death with no warning.

People have said there is a chain. Is this the chain that pulls you? When I am being pulled by RoA, I can't break free, slippery does not work etc.

In that case the "chain" is not a visual indicator. What I mean is RoA should have a perimeter (12 METERS DIAMETER!!!!!!) circle on the ground for 0.8 seconds before you are pulled.

That would be plenty of time for me to react. I never get pulled by DC.

I would say 70-80% of my deaths are from being pulled with no warning by RoA. I don't generally die much and I'm not in a group ~80% of the time. I just want a chance to avoid these nice 12v1 situations.

slippery wont work on rush of agony because rush of agony pull does not apply a CC

most CCs usually effectively count as a stun too but rush of agony does not

i think thats the biggest problem people have with rush of agony is that the pull itself does not apply cc like every other pull

RaidingTraiding

There really is no warning or visual queue to rush. You can guess when the group lead will try to pull, but as far as a visual indicator, there really isn't any; by the time chains appear you're already being pulled and can't do anything about it. After they buffed the range to 12 meters I have been seeing insane pulls, from outside of my camera range even, and definitely well over 12 meters, and from different elevations. I've seen people jump off walls, cliffs, stairs only to be pulled right back up. What makes this set especially broken is IT DOES NOT FOLLOW CC IMMUNITY RULES, so you can get double pulled. I've seen it happen and have done it to others also, there is no counter play to being yo yoed like that. blocking isn't consistent either because of lag and desync. And because it doesn't follow cc rules you can take an immovable pot in anticipation of a pull and still get yoinked. This set alone has made it so bad groups are effective now. Before a group would have to kite and bait players into a choke (obvious counterplay to that is don't follow the giant red blob into a hallway or around a corner) now they have a choke point on demand so they can just hit you in an open field or wherever and you just instantly die most of the time. A lot of groups that would have trouble killing players now all magically do better now with this set, it's pretty brain dead to use, and way better than any other pull mechanic in the game. not to mention it has an 8 second cooldown. Why is this set 8 seconds and dark convergence 25 seconds? dc is worse in almost every way. it stuns so you get cc immunity, tool tip damage is lower, and it has a really obvious visual queue. dc was was nerfed pretty hard because it was overperforming so why has this set been buffed instead? No logic there. The delay is pretty inconsequential, coming from someone who uses it and has had it used against them.

Theignson

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

There really is no warning or visual queue to rush. You can guess when the group lead will try to pull, but as far as a visual indicator, there really isn't any; by the time chains appear you're already being pulled and can't do anything about it. After they buffed the range to 12 meters I have been seeing insane pulls, from outside of my camera range even, and definitely well over 12 meters, and from different elevations. I've seen people jump off walls, cliffs, stairs only to be pulled right back up. What makes this set especially broken is IT DOES NOT FOLLOW CC IMMUNITY RULES, so you can get double pulled. I've seen it happen and have done it to others also, there is no counter play to being yo yoed like that. blocking isn't consistent either because of lag and desync. And because it doesn't follow cc rules you can take an immovable pot in anticipation of a pull and still get yoinked. This set alone has made it so bad groups are effective now. Before a group would have to kite and bait players into a choke (obvious counterplay to that is don't follow the giant red blob into a hallway or around a corner) now they have a choke point on demand so they can just hit you in an open field or wherever and you just instantly die most of the time. A lot of groups that would have trouble killing players now all magically do better now with this set, it's pretty brain dead to use, and way better than any other pull mechanic in the game. not to mention it has an 8 second cooldown. Why is this set 8 seconds and dark convergence 25 seconds? dc is worse in almost every way. it stuns so you get cc immunity, tool tip damage is lower, and it has a really obvious visual queue. dc was was nerfed pretty hard because it was overperforming so why has this set been buffed instead? No logic there. The delay is pretty inconsequential, coming from someone who uses it and has had it used against them.

I agree with everything here. The 8 sec cooldown is absurd, there is no warning, and the range is astronomical compared to any other skill.
On top of that, apparently if 2 or more ball groupies are wearing this, you can be pulled, roll away and be pulled again. This would explain what I have experienced many times.

I think ZOS simply doesn't understand how this set is working in open world PvP. They seem not to care that it violates all the basic rules and breaks PvP.
At the very least, if anyone at ZOS still does quantitative metrics, they should have the data that every single ball group runs this-- this gives the clue that it is OP.

This set makes me hate PvP, which is saying a lot, given that I've played (wasted !) 10k hours on this game , probably ~8k of that on PvP.

Sluggy

El_Borracho wrote: »

ROA has a 0.8 second delay for the pull, for which there is an obvious animation, and then another 2 second delay for the damage, then an 8 second cooldown. The players who get killed by ROA either didn't block, or run pots, or stuck around to be CC'd for the follow up.

I've used this set on a DK and it works well in an organized, smaller to medium groups because, as @divnyi mentioned, pug groups will overcast stuns or CC's so its hard to pull in a large group of targets with ROA.

People tell me there is a telegraph but I've never once seen it. Yeah sure, there's a visual effect and a sound just like the DK chains but that isn't a telegraph because it happens at the time of the pull (and often after) not before. There's literally nothing I can do at that point. The only telegraph I've ever seen is to keep an eye out for someone that is obviously part of a group suddenly using a gap closer for no apparent reason other than to proc the set.

It's technical issues like this that ZoS has failed to consider over the years that really makes me question how they test this stuff as well as their judgement based on such obviously flawed info. Assuming I get no serious spikes, If it takes a half a second for an effect to show up on my screen and another tenth of a second for my input to get back to the servers and be process how much time does that leave for me to actually react to anything? And that's again assuming nothing happens with my internet in the meantime. This is the same reason I've always said cast times on ultimates is dumb. Adding a delay doesn't make it possible for your average player using average internet to react to it, it just makes it harder for the attacker to get it to actually work.

xylena_lazarow

There's maybe a quarter second between hearing the sound and the chain firing (and it doesn't matter if you've moved out of range of the chain during its delay, it will pull you across the entire map), the chain cannot be dodged (like holy what why), there are an assortment of unblockable stuns to remove the remaining counterplay, and if you somehow get through all that, you can still be double and triple pulled. There is no immunity to consecutive pulls (lol how what why).

YandereGirlfriend

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

There's maybe a quarter second between hearing the sound and the chain firing (and it doesn't matter if you've moved out of range of the chain during its delay, it will pull you across the entire map), the chain cannot be dodged (like holy what why), there are an assortment of unblockable stuns to remove the remaining counterplay, and if you somehow get through all that, you can still be double and triple pulled. There is no immunity to consecutive pulls (lol how what why).

Look, it is super easy to know when and where a ballgroup is going to make a stack; they don't just happen out of thin air or at random. Just observe a group and how they repeat the same patterns over and over again the next time that you're in Cyrodiil. And then do your best not to be in those places. Start dispersing when they change direction.

A ballgroup crown is always looking for the most dense natural concentration of players. That is where they are going to attempt to pull. Chances are that that coincides with a natural choke point or some other place where large numbers of enemies can be funneled into a relatively compact area.

If someone is getting repeatedly pulled by this set... it means that they are repeatedly self-stacking with a bunch of other players and making an enticing target for that group to pull. It is really not difficult to avoid putting yourself into that position.

Could Rush of Agony use a hostile AOE ground marker? Yes, actually. That would be a very reasonable thing to do. Does the damage proc need to be that high? No, probably not. The set could deal no damage at all and it would still be strong

As for Blocking... the point isn't that you have to have lightning reflexes to see the Chains animation fire and then to Block it. The point is that you should have already noticed that the group changed direction and is coming straight at you on a clear attack path. You should then be primed to watch for the gap-close that will proc the set and then to throw up Block. It is recognizing the overall pattern rather than the specific set animation (but, to be clear, you CAN see and Block that as well; I've done it a zillion times and I'm not special in that regard).

StaticWave

divnyi wrote: »

@StaticWave you people say this about any change that would make pug life simpler, like HoT stacking, shield stacking, AoE pulls, AoE buffs, snow threaders etc etc.

Coordinated group would still be more effective? Such a new idea! Means they should not balance it at all, right?

No, I’m simply saying you can’t fix skill difference.

I play in a group that usually doesn’t run RoA, but would slot it if we’re taking on zergs with 20+ players. The only difference it makes is RoA allows my group to fight more people in the open field. There’s no choke points to funnel the zerg, so RoA is required to create an artificial “choke point” for our combo to land.

Without RoA, we would just kite until we’re around an environmental choke point and then we ult dump.

In both scenarios, zergs behave mindlessly. They will follow you through that choke point every single time. How are you fixing that? You simply can’t.

Even the cross-heal stacking solution (which btw I favor), is also going to hurt pugs because now they can’t receive off heals from some random healers in their zerg.

I’m all for nerfing overperforming mechanics, but that won’t change anything between ball groups and pugs.

xylena_lazarow

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Could Rush of Agony use a hostile AOE ground marker? Yes, actually. That would be a very reasonable thing to do. Does the damage proc need to be that high? No, probably not. The set could deal no damage at all and it would still be strong

So you wrote a whole L2P essay just to agree with me anyway. Very cool, thank you for your time.

Auldwulfe

Theignson wrote: »

Can someone post a video of the RoA visual clue?

Normally what happens to me is: a ball group is running around. I try to stay 15m from them. They are fighting 15m away, then suddenly I get pulled into their circle of death with no warning.

People have said there is a chain. Is this the chain that pulls you? When I am being pulled by RoA, I can't break free, slippery does not work etc.

In that case the "chain" is not a visual indicator. What I mean is RoA should have a perimeter (12 METERS DIAMETER!!!!!!) circle on the ground for 0.8 seconds before you are pulled.

That would be plenty of time for me to react. I never get pulled by DC.

I would say 70-80% of my deaths are from being pulled with no warning by RoA. I don't generally die much and I'm not in a group ~80% of the time. I just want a chance to avoid these nice 12v1 situations.

ROA goes off from charges and pulls - so Stampede, Templar Charge, NB Shadow Jump, the Shield Bash charge, or fighter guild crossbow pull, or DK chain pull...

Honestly, the damage is no more than any other proc set - about equal to tarnished - and once pulled, you can start to dodge roll away, or block, which does take a bunch of the damage off... I am in the habit of hitting block as soon as I am pulled with anything... and I usually survive the hit.

The thing that makes it a pain is the pull on an area, rather than having 2 or 3 DK's in a ball, pulling you into an eruption, and watching you crawl with 70% snare... which also happens, along with NB's proccing their tarnished from stealth, right into a group, which is roughly the same effect as ROA - albeit without a pull, or chance to block.....

A LOT of skills, not just this armor can pull -- a couple of healers slotting the fighter guild skill with the 22 meter range can do almost as much, pulling people into the ball... especially, if there are a good number of dots going, as then you get Azure Blighted, Tarnished, or any of the other similar damage sets......

By the way, if you are the only one pulled.. or just a couple.... it wasn't ROA - it was people using discord and coordinated pulls.... ROA is indiscriminate, hitting all around the person that did the charge, stamped, etc.....

Auldwulfe

Bashev

That set should give CC immunity as every other pull.