Resource Loss on "death" - terrible feature

KaironBlackbard

I've evaded death many times, but I am guaranteed to die because of this terrible system. If you are targeted by an attack while below 2% health, it zeros your resources, preventing you from healing, blocking, or dodging the attack. I have managed to evade that stroke just to die 1 second later because I couldn't cast my heal or do another dodge or block because this faulty system ate my resources.

valenwood_vegan

I believe the "resources dropping to zero before you're actually dead" thing is a lag / desync / server issue. Not that it shouldn't be addressed, along with other such issues, but I don't think it's intended.

KaironBlackbard

But we've managed to survive it before.
Tri-Restos are the only way to comeback from such a thing happening.
Even then, players do 15k on average so one tri resto followed by however many heals you can pull off never saves you in PvP. The only thing you can do is give up because the whole system is against you in all the unfair fights.

El_Borracho

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

But we've managed to survive it before.

No, that means you were close to dead, but not dead-dead. @valenwood_vegan is correct. The dsync makes it look like everything is just fine after an attack, to the point you may even get off a couple of counters, then everything drops to zero.

KaironBlackbard

El_Borracho wrote: »

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

But we've managed to survive it before.

No, that means you were close to dead, but not dead-dead. @valenwood_vegan is correct. The dsync makes it look like everything is just fine after an attack, to the point you may even get off a couple of counters, then everything drops to zero.

No. My bro and I have a couple times managed to evade and escape. Normally they chase us down and kill us but there have been a few times (about 5% of the time) we truly escape and survive another 15 minutes.
If it were desync, we'd die anyways, not lose our resources.
No, if we are below a certain HP and they TARGET us with a kill attack and we evade, it nuked our resources when we are targeted, making chances of escape miniscule. Best evasion is to be on its edge and outpace of my half a meter getting just out of range, causing the attack to miss. Can't roll, can't block, can't heal. But you live anyways.
Their attack misses because you got out of range.

It shouldn't nuke your resources Until the attack HITS, NOT when you are targeted.

valenwood_vegan

Is this... related to pvp? A certain dungeon? A certain type of enemy? A certain attack? Still sounds like some kind of desync, but if it's a bug or a particular mech or something, being more specific about when and where it happens might be required for them to do anything about it.

I do see pvp mentioned in one of the posts above - just be aware that pvp (especially cyro) regularly has a ton of problems with lag and performance that can produce odd results - to put it as simply as possible, what you're seeing on your screen in pvp is not always what's actually occurring according to the server. It's been a pain point for a long time.

KaironBlackbard

Mostly occurs vs cleave, be it player or NPC. Much easier to survive NPC.

They start the cleave, heave it back, you lose your resources, you step outside the radius, they swing, the attack completely misses because you weren't in range.
Sometimes Uppercut does the same thing.

Most noticeable vs greatweapons.
When someone uses arrow spray, or the arrow shotgun ability, normally it doesn't do that until it hits but sometimes it'll nuke resources halfway through their cast time and then you step out and avoid the hit but have no resources for recovery.
Only occurs at very low health, like below 2k.

LPapirius

It's the lag.

tsaescishoeshiner

You receive damage mechanically before it shows up on your health bar. Certain damage sources have a delay before the damage visually appears to sync up with their animations. But it hits when the skill is used or the damage procs.

Example: Reverse Slash hits instantly, but the health damage doesn't appear for a few fractions of a second later, to line up with the downswing of the animation. Lag can obviously cause its own problems on top of this short delay. Bar-swapping instantly after using it will cause the damage to appear instantly. But from my testing, it doesn't cause it to actually hit any earlier.

Source: If you wear Macabre Vintage, you'll see the death explosion a few fractions of a second before the enemy dies for certain skills like Reverse Slash or Impulse. I've never seen the explosion where the enemy DOESN'T die. I was suspicious that this is why I linger alive for a brief time before dying in battlegrounds, but wasn't sure until using this set--lag and other factors make it hard to tell.

Why would it be like this? I think it makes the animations flow and look better without actually having everyone's skills hit on a delay or having cast times, which would feel absolutely terrible to use. It does lead to exceptions where you seem to be surviving, but die, that look like lag. (I mean, there are also desyncs and bugs out there for sure.)

I'm not going to do any type of detailed testing about it, so if someone isn't convinced, we're not going to hash it out here lol.

KaironBlackbard

Easiest replication: Get very low on health, be targeted by a Cleave, step outside its radius and run away. You lost all resources but manage to escape. 0 stamina, 0 magicka, 2000 health.
I feel it shouldn't eat my 27k magicka and 15k stamina when I get targeted like that.
If I survive like that, I should be able to cast my heals and make more dodges. Not be forced into doing nothing but running away because it ate my mag and stam when it shouldn't have.
The attack didn't kill me. I evaded it by stepping out of its range.
That's the point I'm trying to make here. Quit saying it's lag. It's not.

valenwood_vegan

Ok sorry? It sounds like lag. Put in a bug report then, we can't fix it.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Easiest replication: Get very low on health, be targeted by a Cleave, step outside its radius and run away. You lost all resources but manage to escape. 0 stamina, 0 magicka, 2000 health.
I feel it shouldn't eat my 27k magicka and 15k stamina when I get targeted like that.
If I survive like that, I should be able to cast my heals and make more dodges. Not be forced into doing nothing but running away because it ate my mag and stam when it shouldn't have.
The attack didn't kill me. I evaded it by stepping out of its range.
That's the point I'm trying to make here. Quit saying it's lag. It's not.

Even following these steps I can't reproduce it; do you have a video?

Sluggy

It's a combination of latency, desync, and the client app being a bit weird when it comes to what it prioritizes for updates. Check the top-right corner and you'll see a little message saying "You can't do that while dead". It's frustrating to be sure but you are in fact already dead on the server and the client just didn't let you know in time. Remember that when playing online, by necessity, everything you see is by a reflection of the past.

The fact that you can still move around during this state is because the client has predictive movement to allow for a smoother experience when playing.

KaironBlackbard

Sluggy wrote: »

It's a combination of latency, desync, and the client app being a bit weird when it comes to what it prioritizes for updates. Check the top-right corner and you'll see a little message saying "You can't do that while dead". It's frustrating to be sure but you are in fact already dead on the server and the client just didn't let you know in time. Remember that when playing online, by necessity, everything you see is by a reflection of the past.

The fact that you can still move around during this state is because the client has predictive movement to allow for a smoother experience when playing.

Did you not read what I said?
I LIVE.
As long as they don't do a follow up attack, I can run away and regen.
2khp, 0mag, 0stam, and ALIVE.

The last time this happened, I was on my tank, and I'm holding block, and block 5 of his attacks below 15% HP, thus dropping lower. He then does a cleave, and my idiot drops his block and takes the full damage rather than reducing it with block. 2.5k, rather than *350 as he was from the previous attacks (* just means your block mitigated a ton of damage).
Why'd he drop block? Because in being targeted by the cleave, it zeroed his resources, preventing him from continuing to block.
Had it not done that, I could have blocked half a dozen more attacks and survived long enough for my ally to shove him away from me.
I had over 12k of each resource (2k health) and it decided to murder my block and get me killed in an otherwise survivable scenario.

El_Borracho

Fine. You're right. Its not desync despite everyone having experienced the exact same situation.

KaironBlackbard

I never see anything saying "you can't do that while dead"
it never occurs
could be desync
but the server accepts I'm not dead, and I can run away and heal up even though it nuked my resources.
I may have been dead on the other client, but not on the server or my end. I evaded death and escaped.
And so long as they don't give chase, I can escape and restore to full.

That's all I'm saying.
Sluggy's explanation is incorrect as I can live after such an occurrence. If I were dead on the server, my character freezes then teleports to where I died or just falls dead on reconnect. Doesn't lose resources.
But this? The loss of resources before I even get hit is uncalled for.
I could survive a lot longer if it let me have my resources.
A heal, a volley of blocks, a stun cast, could make the difference between life and death, but they require resources.
I have near max resources, and when I am targeted by an attack while below 0.5% health, even if I get out of its range, I have no resources.
I have escaped those situations before.
I have lived.
If sluggy's was the case, it wouldn't have let me run away.
I've had cases where I run away and then fall dead. The cases where I lose resources aren't those cases.
That's what I'm saying.
It shouldn't nuke your resources until you are actually dead. Not in anticipation of your death.

KaironBlackbard

Actually, sometimes I get targeted likewise, and resources nuked, then receive a ton of heals restoring me to max health, and survive the hit.
That's happened a couple times as well.

KaironBlackbard

Kind of works like this
"Oh, I see you are being targeted by a killing blow. I'll just take all your resources so you can't escape or defend yourself."
(steps out of range or receives a ton of heals)
"Oh you survived? I'm not returning your resources."

As a matter of fact, I once had it nuke my resources 3 times in a row and I still lived.
My healer team mate was working overtime on that one.

Actually, there was one time my resources got nuked and I was above 75% HP.
Gankblade targeted me with a gank attack that killed a few of my allies in one hit, nuked my resources, and dealt only 5k to me, only 25% of my health. I question why it did that. That was a very long time ago. Before western skyrim expansion.
They probably rectified that specific issue, but some still occur.

Like this latest one. I put my guard up, the guy targets me with cleave, an attack I normally block, and was blocking before hand, and it nuked my resources, killing my guard, and causing me to take 2.3k (killing me) rather than the 300 something it was doing when I was blocking. I was at 2.1k HP, and over 12k of each resource.