IC should be completely reworked. It's a total fail.

Parasaurolophus

And a great example of bad game design.

1. Killing other players doesn't make any sense at all. It's easy for them to respawn in the sewers and just go out, find you and try again. Yes, you can change the area, but IC is still pretty small and finding you is not difficult.

2. I've heard stories many times about players farming bosses. Then a random player joins them, and he has to call his friends so that they would enter another alliance toon and drive away the annoying thief Telvar. Or they would enter a character of another alliance and just kill him. That is, the AvA principle does not work in IC.

3. Considering the previous points, it turns out that the fewer players play IC, the better. Why share with a large number of other players? It is simply not profitable to play IC if there are at least 2 sticks of your alliance.

4. As a result, we have a large, but completely empty piece of
quite valuable content, where only about 20 super-elite people on each server can farm telvars, and in some completely crazy quantities.
Reminds me of the story with the guild trading system, where the prefix "guild" is completely false and in fact these are private shops where a few players have tens of billions of gold. (But I still think this is better than a single auction where it is fashionable to buy everything and resell it at an exorbitant price)

Orbital78

I disagree, IC is MMO PVP perfection. Low population makes it easier to farm tel var.

spartaxoxo

Yeah, it's a dead zone.

SkaraMinoc

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

4. As a result, we have a large, but completely empty piece of
quite valuable content, where only about 20 super-elite people on each server can farm telvars, and in some completely crazy quantities.

I'm farming 250-400k tel var per hour in a dead campaign during MYM. Honestly this kind of farm shouldn't exist. It's too good.

Parasaurolophus

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

4. As a result, we have a large, but completely empty piece of
quite valuable content, where only about 20 super-elite people on each server can farm telvars, and in some completely crazy quantities.

I'm farming 250-400k tel var per hour in a dead campaign during MYM. Honestly this kind of farm shouldn't exist. It's too good.

I was an active IC player for a few months after the release. Then I visited there occasionally. People ran to the bank to deposit every 4-5 thousand telvar.

TaSheen

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

4. As a result, we have a large, but completely empty piece of
quite valuable content, where only about 20 super-elite people on each server can farm telvars, and in some completely crazy quantities.

I'm farming 250-400k tel var per hour in a dead campaign during MYM. Honestly this kind of farm shouldn't exist. It's too good.

I was an active IC player for a few months after the release. Then I visited there occasionally. People ran to the bank to deposit every 4-5 thousand telvar.

And this is a problem why? I never keep tv on me....

xylena_lazarow

Orbital78 wrote: »

I disagree, IC is MMO PVP perfection. Low population makes it easier to farm tel var.

PvP perfection is when there's no PvPers to get in the way of farming currency from npcs?

IC is a dead game mode.

LaintalAy

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

And a great example of bad game design.

Reworked in what way?

Just make it another Public Dungeon? People who like killing other players for fun will complain about that aspect being removed.

kargen27

Imperial City had some really good fights before flags were added to the districts. Now with the flags one alliance if populations are close will gain an advantage. ZoS should do special weekends where not controlling the flag doesn't prevent players from spawning in that district after a death. Let the controlling faction have a bonus to telvar or something so it still is worth controlling the flag.
If all three factions could almost instantly spawn on their balcony in that district after death I think we would have so good large and sustained fights again.

Parasaurolophus

h! I forgot about safe exit via ICP or Dungeon Finder.

Twohothardware

They need to drastically decrease the amount of Telvar lost when dying and increase the Telvar for killing players who aren't holding Telvar. It's too punishing to random players trying to farm Telvar and too rewarding to groups that are just looking to kill players but aren't holding Telvar.

tincanman

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yeah, it's a dead zone.

Very droll.

tincanman

Obligatory "can't gain more tv from players than carried so that risk v's reward applies to all" statement.

Vulkunne

IC is just fine the way it is. They could do more events to attract people, however it's the way it should be.

If you don't like PvP or you're not confident with your build then you probably should not be there, or at minimum should not go in there alone. Consequences and a focus on end game contests are what makes IC great.

Although yes, it's sad many are not up to the challenge, many won't even try. That is not IC fault that is another problem for another day.

spartaxoxo

IC doesn't even focus on endgame play outside of events. It'll be super dead a lot of time and it's just PvE world boss farming in groups.

loosej

IC isn't a PvP zone. The entire thing is designed to enable and even promote griefing.

Want to 1v1? Cool. Smallscale vs. smallscale? Go Ahead. Ball vs. ball? Whatever, I don't care, but I'll still call it PvP.

But killing a lone opponent in IC who's at a disadvantage because he/she is engaged in PvE and at half health already isn't PvP. And stealing half their TV in the process is, by definition, griefing. It doesn't surprise me that there's players who like doing this, as they can be found in every game, it's the reason the word exists in the first place. What worries me is that the decision makers at zos seem to belong to this group, because I can't imagine any other way this game mode got approved in the first place.

Vulkunne

spartaxoxo wrote: »

IC doesn't even focus on endgame play outside of events. It'll be super dead a lot of time and it's just PvE world boss farming in groups.

OP said it themselves in so many words that it's a place where elites come together and can be found... endgame content. However, in this regard IC works, so it is not a total failure after all.

Everyone does not go there to PvE and I think more work should be done to increase PvP participation.

That's what IC needs, however in addition to this provide more of a reason for more people to PvP there and not just 'elites'.

JiubLeRepenti

I personally always go to IC with my main vamp magplar and set it to Stage 4 of vampirism, which allows me to go invisible.

A few days ago I rushed the IC bosses like this and didn't meet any other player (was in a very low-frequented campaign).

SeaGtGruff

tincanman wrote: »

Obligatory "can't gain more tv from players than carried so that risk v's reward applies to all" statement.

I don't understand this request. I've seen people suggest it, but I don't think they've thought it through. If a player who's very good at farming TV from the mobs and bosses as well as very good at killing other players has more TV than you when they kill you, you would end up losing 100% of your TV.

Estin

My biggest problem with imperial city is that there's way too many enemies there. I feel like the zone will do better if the amount of enemy spawns depended on the player population, or just reduce the amount of enemies for some of the districts. Traversing zones like nobles, elven, and temple, it feels like there's a pack of 3+ enemies every 10 feet with some/all having 100k+ HP. It makes it very annoying to move around, especially when you get into a fight and already have 3+ npcs attacking you. The zone itself is an interesting concept, but it's only good when all teams have 3 bars.

Tommy_The_Gun

There is a reason why IC became a free DLC...

tonyblack

1 simple fix would be to remove penalty for grouping, so killing reward not dependent on the number of players killing the same enemies, therefore allied players would actually be perceived as allies vs telvar stealers as it is now. Then grouping would actually be rewarding instead of punishing. Currently, the things as they are promoting the most toxic gameplay you’d see in ESO.

licenturion

IC is just like the Darkezones in Division 1 and 2.

Only a few people go there and it is largely ignored by 99 percent of the playerbase.

What all these games need to do is balance out gear with zone modifiers and balances instances with some sort of strict SBMM (also in Battlegrounds). But the player pool is way to small to split up up the few people that are actually liking it among several instances.

Since this game is pretty old they have a few failed systems still in the game from before they hit ‘gold’ with something that works and is well liked among the playerbase.

polly_saccharine

On PSEU IC is useless to the average player due to the mix of content in there and has been left to the Tel Var farmers who have made it a profitable business, personally and for their guilds.

On the PSEU server, to go down there risks harassment and backlash from the farmers.

years later, this backlash now comes from the guilds they own, and aggressively over-bid for prime spots any guild that tries to compete for flower or pot sales, going so far as to remove anyone that dares sell them in their guilds.

And on the PSEU server their guild group is growing exponentially and the amount of gold they are making and what they are really doing with it goes unchecked.

IC achievements for the average player are difficult to get, as is the Tel Var merchant's products because no one wants to go down there with the farmers there.

This means the farmers are doubly blessed because they get to sell Tel Var items at a premium in their traders and control the Hakeijo and Tri-glyph market.

They use the get-out-of-IC-dungeon-finder card if anyone attempts to go down to share the arenas and then switch alliance to deter anyone from staying.

IC needs a serious revamp to make it openly accessible to all and impede the ability of a few to control it and create a system that has become a cancer on the PSEU server.

xylena_lazarow

Vulkunne wrote: »

IC is just fine the way it is.

Being a dead game mode that barely sees PvP is fine? For players who care more about profit than PvP, sure.

polly_saccharine wrote: »

This means the farmers are doubly blessed because they get to sell Tel Var items at a premium in their traders and control the Hakeijo and Tri-glyph market.

Exactly, IC offers nothing to the majority of PvPers, but it's a lucrative grind for a very small handful of tryhards.

kargen27 wrote: »

Imperial City had some really good fights before flags were added to the districts. Now with the flags one alliance if populations are close will gain an advantage.

Yup, before the spawn changes, it was a great place to jump in and out of a giant PvP brawl, unique from Cyro or BGs. The spawn changes directly block players from getting back into the action, and enable cartel behavior.

MasterSpatula

It's a PvPVE zone. The entire concept is bad, tailor made to encourage all the behaviors ZOS should be actively discouraging. It wasn't so bad when it was hard to get to, but it's dominated by predatory behavior. Don't try to save it. It's probably unsavable, and it certainly doesn't deserve it.

polly_saccharine

MasterSpatula wrote: »

It's a PvPVE zone. The entire concept is bad, tailor made to encourage all the behaviors ZOS should be actively discouraging. It wasn't so bad when it was hard to get to, but it's dominated by predatory behavior. Don't try to save it. It's probably unsavable, and it certainly doesn't deserve it.

It is not like these bad behaviours are a closely guarded secret. Just ZOS seem to be the last to know or see the writing on the wall for IC and how it is really being used by bad actors.

The majority farm for the Apothecary Satchels and Hakeijo's, as they have the fastest flip value.

Poisons are incredibly cheap to make but the immediate return on selling it to the merchant is significantly profitable compared to selling the alchemy in stacks and offer a slow turn-over in traders, when slots are better used for the higher value alchemy or tr-stat or mag pots.

1 stack of Alkahest (ever wondered why it's held its value?) + 1 stack of trash alchemy + 1 stack of trash alchemy or 16 to 1 = 3,200 poison pots. 3,200 pots sold to merchant = 15,985. Easy to spot who does this by looking at the purchase history of a guild. Alkahest can also be bought with Tel Var.

Tel Var farmers, thanks to Zenithar, get a discount and so save the January mayhem boxes to open during Zenithar, hence the drop in alchemy prices shortly after Jubilee.

Not exactly something an average player can take advantage of is it?

400k Tel Var a day can be converted to millions more ESO gold by the end of a trading week and there are guilds that use Tel Var farmers to supply/sell them the gold to ensure their farmers have prime traders to sell the good alchemy and pots in, kicking out any player that sells alchemy or pots to ensure a monopoly is kept between the farmers and guild for flower selling, and locking out other guilds by over-bidding, creating a trading monopoly.

It is like IC, Mayhem and Zenithar are tailor made for bad behaviour

Would be interesting to see a survey of how many people have actually entered IC and completed the main quest line or are actually aware one exists to be done...

TDVM

First we need to get Cyrodiil in order

pklemming

I love the ladder game. I guess how many times I need to click it to go up or down the ladder. If I win, I get a sweet.

RaddlemanNumber7

I have adapted one of my characters for use in IC. I achieve the objectives I choose for myself. Got my event tickets, got my Tel Var, done my Role Play, had my fun. Just wish there was something I wanted to buy with the 100+ siege tokens I've accumulated.

The IC is a unique zone. I enjoy it and I think it would be sad to lose the zone.

Vulkunne

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

IC is just fine the way it is.

Being a dead game mode that barely sees PvP is fine? For players who care more about profit than PvP, sure.

polly_saccharine wrote: »

This means the farmers are doubly blessed because they get to sell Tel Var items at a premium in their traders and control the Hakeijo and Tri-glyph market.

Exactly, IC offers nothing to the majority of PvPers, but it's a lucrative grind for a very small handful of tryhards.

kargen27 wrote: »

Imperial City had some really good fights before flags were added to the districts. Now with the flags one alliance if populations are close will gain an advantage.

Yup, before the spawn changes, it was a great place to jump in and out of a giant PvP brawl, unique from Cyro or BGs. The spawn changes directly block players from getting back into the action, and enable cartel behavior.

IC is a dead game mode, barely sees PvP, IC offers nothing to the majority of PvPers, but its a lucrative grind for players who care about profit.

Please tell me more about how this excludes PvP. If anything, this encourages PvP for reasons you gave. For one example, you mention Hakeijos and Tri-glyphs, others have mentioned trading chips for Alchemy stuff. Please tell me more about how these resources are not critical for everyone's builds, but especially PvP builds. If anything, just from what we've discussed in this thread that should attract people to PvP there. I know there are some who want it as a PvE zone only, so whenever this comes up, you really have those who want to PvP for the rewards and those who don't want to face the possibility of PvP (but want the rewards).

Many times, those who PvP frequently are kind of poor. So, PvPing can become expensive over time and the cool thing about IC is you can PvP and make some gold too. So again, just saying that it's a for profit place doesn't exclude PvPers, if anything its exactly what they want because they can do what they like and get paid. Pirates' life for me anyone? IC also kind of feels like you're robbing a bank, western style. I could tell stories about the times when I barely got away from DC zergs and DC headhunters for example. For these reasons, IC can be intimidating though so. Sometimes better to go there with a group.

The only thing I would ask of ZOS regarding this, and I'll leave at this, but if you do make IC changes in the future, please consider the fact that many PvPers love the zone and how its played. I would fundamentally disagree with IC being undone just because some from the PvE crowd have their fundamental problem with PvP itself. Because in alot of threads that what it comes down to. I would think IC would be better thought of for bridging the gulf between PvP and PvE.