DK Tank questions

Sleeping_OwI

1- is Engulfing flame worth using on tank in 4-man content? The bonus on tank is only 1-2%, and the only fire damage in most players' kit is wall of elements and fire glyph, unless in the rare case of a magDk being in group, who would have his own EF with higher bonus anyway. So considering that there are only 2 dds with just a small amount of fire damage, is the tiny flame damage buff of EF worth a skill slot and the mag cost?

2- DK tanks, how often do you run Stone Giant? it surprised me with how ridiculously demanding it is to keep up; the stam cost, the low duration, the cast time which drops block.. I play BB on necro tank often and even that wasn't this annoying lol. Is SG a skill only for good organized groups and fights that are easier on the tank? Do you still keep it in harder fights or swap with a something else?

Also because of SG, do you put more points into Stam attribute, or stam glyphs? Or simply work on your stam sustain instead of max stam? At the moment i have all points in Health, but i might put 3-4k into Stam.

3- I see obsidian shield on many Dk tanks' front bar, but i don't see (4k mag cost for 1k stam return) worth using at all. Do they actually use it often to get stam back? But then you'd run low on mag? Can someone explain this to me please

Soarora

1. Probably not.
2. Stagger is a sweaty thing. If you wanna be sweaty, stagger. If you don’t or want to permablock, don’t. I’ve never done stagger so I can’t comment on how to sustain it.
3. Yeah, that’s the thing I hate about DK tank— you’ve basically got the APM of a DPS with all the shield spamming. Use balance from mages guild to get magicka, spam shield, repeat.

fred4

I have played all roles, including DK tank, in vet trials up to and including partial hard modes, e.g. vCR+2 and vAS+2.

Questions 1 and 2 seem very advanced to me. At my difficulty level and considering I often PUG, I have never bothered slotting those skills. I think you surmised correctly that they are for larger coordinated groups, if you use them at all. I would only start thinking about them, if I was getting into trial hard modes, or maybe the hardest dungeon hard modes. That said, players who play routinely at that level may trickle down their skill bars into all of their builds, because it's not a bother to them. Thus you may see accomplished YouTubers recommending these skills. Will someone hold it against you when you don't do so in a PUG? Absolutely not. I have never been asked to slot them. Unless you play regularly with the same group, I think you end up with DDs who have much bigger problems than the tank squeezing out the last bit of damage for them. As I always say with regard to DDs: +X% of nothing is still nothing. The difference between individual DDs in a PUG can be as high as 100%, 200%, sometimes more. The gap has shrunk with arcanists, but when the dungeon group feels good, it's first and foremost because you got good DDs, not because you squeezed out X% more damage, where X is in the single or low double digits. I also think fire damage is less prevalent overall than it used to be, and Engulfing Flames may not be meta anymore at all. I could be wrong on that last point. It's probably just very situational.

Question 3 stands in stark contrast to the other two. Are you so experienced that you know mechanics everywhere and you are, therefore, not blocking by default? Do you only block when you have to? I work the opposite way. I clamp down on block unless I know I don't have to. 1K stamina may not seem like much, but it is. 4K cost is a lot, but you frequently have nothing else to spend your magicka on. That said, you also get Major Mending and a decent shield, including for group members. That's nothing to be sneezed at.

Some fights are borderline. Talaria, the last boss in vDSR (Dreadsail Reef) is such a fight. Just standing there, blocking, can still get you killed. Even at 40K health, she may one shot you, especially if you are not quite at full health. There are various ways of dealing with that. One is dodge rolling the attack. Another is Magma Shell. Another is using the Hardened Ward and Igneous Shield shields while blocking. This isn't even hard mode I'm talking about. I can personally only imagine what hard mode is like. Aside from that fight, stacking Hardened Ward and Igneous Shield also gives you some security while letting go of block and restoring stamina with a heavy attack.

In regard to the sustain question, you want to invest in magicka regen as a tank. I think mine has something like 1.7K from the Atro Mundus, Red Frothgar and 1 jewelry enchant, without potion. Most tanks prefer food over Red Frothgar, as far as I'm aware, and 3x magicka recovery enchants. However my setup allows for using 1x block cost reduction and 1x skill cost reduction (Indeko) enchants. This is what I prefer along with all Hakeijo-enchanted gear, about 40K health and ~20K magicka and stamina, with stamina > magicka to ensure synergies restore stamina. In addition, if no one asks me to wear particular sets, I like fitting the Torc of Tonal Constancy into my build. When my stamina drops below 50%, because I'm blocking, the Torc ups my magicka regen by another significant amount.

A further way to manage your resources on DK is, of course, having ultigen from the likes of Drake's Rush and ultigen potions or a (possibly scribed) Minor Heroism skill. Drake's Rush is arguably a decent set for dungeons, since it gives ultimate to 3 other players as well. Bloodspawn, on the other hand, is arguably more of a PvP set. You don't typically get hammered with lots of (small) attacks in PvE, like you do in PvP. This leaves Bloodspawn with a smaller proc chance in the former environment.

El_Borracho

I agree with @fred4. A lot of this comes down to experience, content, and armor sets, both your set along with the off-tank and healer sets in trials. When I think of tanking, I think of veteran content like trials and DLC dungeons. But even some DLC dungeons are easy to tank so you don't need to go full vet trial hardmode setup.

I've never run Stone Giant or Engulfing Flames on a tank. Maybe a few years ago when Zaan was OP Engulfing Flames would be a good call, but not so much now outside of a specialized raid group. I do remember some builds using Stone Giant but I never found it to be worthwhile.

I share the same feelings about Igneous Shield. Its situational. A lot of the time your knowledge of mechanics and CP will suffice when avoiding or mitigating damage. But its great in fights like Talaria, or the end of Ansuul's in Sanity's Edge, or the end of Xalvakka in Rockgrove, or even Halls of Fabrication where you might want the extra bump because of the constant damage you're taking or if you are worried that your healer might get killed. Its a nice safety net in the vein of Magma Shell.

Primary DK skills on my DK tanks are Green Dragon Blood and Unrelenting Grip (Elemental Blockade as well, but its not a DK skill). Beyond that, everything else is content based. I do like Cinder Storm. I use Volatile Armor quite often in dungeons, but Hardened Armor in trials. I use Burning Talons in dungeons, but can't remember that last time I used it in a trial. Dragon Fire Scale is 100% situational and can be overshadowed by Defensive Stance.

There are skills that sound good, but they are not, either due to other skills being better or recognizing the content draws in experienced players that do not need those skills. An example of the former is Noxious Breath. It sounds great, but since you are a tank, you should be going S&B which means you are likely running Pierce Armor, a better skill. An example of the latter is Igneous Weapons. If you are running vet DLC dungeons and trials, the DDs typically have their own source of Major Brutality/Sorcery so there is no point to using this skill. Then there is Petrify, which has no use as bosses are immune.

For ultimates, the major 4 are Standard of Might, Magma Shell, Barrier, and Warhorn (with Echoing Vigor). These will also vary based on what the off-tank or healers are using in trials. Some use the Psijic ultimate, but I don't like it. Not to say its not good, I just don't like it.

Inner Rage is useful, but can be optional if you don't need a ranged taunt.

fred4

I forgot to say that, if you don't have or don't regularly use any other Earthen Heart skill, then Obsidian Shield is also the only skill that gives the group Minor Brutality. This is actually a big deal. It's a unique buff that groups expect a DK to bring to the table. Like everything else it won't make or break the group like good DDs can, but it's a further benefit to running that skill.

Here's a version of my DK tank build. It's the most comfortable "selfish" version that I run:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=581822

I note that UESP is acting up. Skill 1 on the back bar is Frost Clench. Skill 4 is Frost Blockade. Also it turns out that I don't use a block cost reduction enchant anymore, but 2x magicka regen.

Drake's Rush is fine for 4-man groups, but also particularly comfortable in vAS+2. I will however swap it out if I'm asked or if I don't see the other tank wearing Pearlescent. Alternatives include Saxhleel, Pearlescent and Lucent Echoes. In place of the Torc / Potentates / Trainee combo, I may wear Crimson Oath or Powerful Assault on the back bar. I don't use Turning Tide, but it's popular. I just carry Devyric to use instead of Tremorscale.

I like Swift jewelry. It helps in vDSR. It helps with DDs rushing in dungeons. It's nice in vet Blackrose Prison. It's another luxury I can afford by using Red Frothgar to help with the magicka sustain. I would say most tanks use Infused jewelry and all magicka regen enchants.

Let's discuss a few of the skills. Pierce Armor heals you via Master 1H+S. Unrelenting Grip can act as a free ranged taunt for enemies that can't be pulled. However it only has a 22m range and is a second-tier taunt. To take over an enemy from the other tank in a trial from range, you need Frost Clench (or the Undaunted taunt or maybe a scribed taunt). You probably don't need the latter in a dungeon, but in a trial, due to mechanics, it can be necessary or at least very useful.

If I don't need Unrelenting Grip, I tend to slot Defensive Stance in that spot, because the +10% passive mitigation is additive with some other blocking factors, making it much stronger than 10% in practice. While this is highly build and situation dependent, I've gotten as much as a 27% additional mitigation in testing from Defensive Stance, passively. It beats Revealing Flare by a mile for blockable damage. (EDIT: Are they patching or have they patched the block factor stacking mechanic? I forget.)

Barrier just gives you more magicka regen passively. You might use it actively to help the group or you might slot Warhorn instead. However, when wearing Saxhleel there isn't much point to using Warhorn. I'm a lazy guy. I like Magma Shell and, when wearing Saxhleel, you can't argue.

The rest of the back bar might merit further discussion:

Inner Light is entirely passive and a way to compensate for the low magicka due to my using Red Frothgar as the food. I put a magicka enchant on the front bar shield. Inner Light on the back bar keeps magicka more or less balanced between the two bars. However I sometimes slot Revealing Flare for the Major Protection instead.

Cauterize is another self-heal. I took to using it while pugging vAS+2. If asked, I will put Igneous Weapons in that spot instead, e.g. to give the group Major Brutality / Sorcery.

Elemental Blockade is tanking 101. Keep the boss standing in it to proc the back bar enchant for +2K penetration.

Resolving Vigor is there for the Minor Resolve more so than the heal, although the heal is sometimes useful too and the skill is needed to proc Powerful Assault when wearing that.

Urzigurumash

Traditionally a DK finds maximum efficency by casting an Earthern Heart ability no less than once every 6 seconds for maximum Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing.

With today's more numerous sources of Ult, casting Igneous on cooldown may be less of a concern for a tank. Another use for it is to buff Vigor - if you're using that to proc Powerful Assault.

Urzigurumash

And for sure Frothgar + Atronach is the best by far.

fred4

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And for sure Frothgar + Atronach is the best by far.

Yay, someone who agrees with me! I don't usually see it recommended.

Sleeping_OwI

fred4 wrote: »

I have played all roles, including DK tank, in vet trials up to and including partial hard modes, e.g. vCR+2 and vAS+2.

Questions 1 and 2 seem very advanced to me. At my difficulty level and considering I often PUG, I have never bothered slotting those skills. I think you surmised correctly that they are for larger coordinated groups, if you use them at all. I would only start thinking about them, if I was getting into trial hard modes, or maybe the hardest dungeon hard modes. That said, players who play routinely at that level may trickle down their skill bars into all of their builds, because it's not a bother to them. Thus you may see accomplished YouTubers recommending these skills. Will someone hold it against you when you don't do so in a PUG? Absolutely not. I have never been asked to slot them. Unless you play regularly with the same group, I think you end up with DDs who have much bigger problems than the tank squeezing out the last bit of damage for them. As I always say with regard to DDs: +X% of nothing is still nothing. The difference between individual DDs in a PUG can be as high as 100%, 200%, sometimes more. The gap has shrunk with arcanists, but when the dungeon group feels good, it's first and foremost because you got good DDs, not because you squeezed out X% more damage, where X is in the single or low double digits. I also think fire damage is less prevalent overall than it used to be, and Engulfing Flames may not be meta anymore at all. I could be wrong on that last point. It's probably just very situational.

Question 3 stands in stark contrast to the other two. Are you so experienced that you know mechanics everywhere and you are, therefore, not blocking by default? Do you only block when you have to? I work the opposite way. I clamp down on block unless I know I don't have to. 1K stamina may not seem like much, but it is. 4K cost is a lot, but you frequently have nothing else to spend your magicka on. That said, you also get Major Mending and a decent shield, including for group members. That's nothing to be sneezed at.

Some fights are borderline. Talaria, the last boss in vDSR (Dreadsail Reef) is such a fight. Just standing there, blocking, can still get you killed. Even at 40K health, she may one shot you, especially if you are not quite at full health. There are various ways of dealing with that. One is dodge rolling the attack. Another is Magma Shell. Another is using the Hardened Ward and Igneous Shield shields while blocking. This isn't even hard mode I'm talking about. I can personally only imagine what hard mode is like. Aside from that fight, stacking Hardened Ward and Igneous Shield also gives you some security while letting go of block and restoring stamina with a heavy attack.

In regard to the sustain question, you want to invest in magicka regen as a tank. I think mine has something like 1.7K from the Atro Mundus, Red Frothgar and 1 jewelry enchant, without potion. Most tanks prefer food over Red Frothgar, as far as I'm aware, and 3x magicka recovery enchants. However my setup allows for using 1x block cost reduction and 1x skill cost reduction (Indeko) enchants. This is what I prefer along with all Hakeijo-enchanted gear, about 40K health and ~20K magicka and stamina, with stamina > magicka to ensure synergies restore stamina. In addition, if no one asks me to wear particular sets, I like fitting the Torc of Tonal Constancy into my build. When my stamina drops below 50%, because I'm blocking, the Torc ups my magicka regen by another significant amount.

A further way to manage your resources on DK is, of course, having ultigen from the likes of Drake's Rush and ultigen potions or a (possibly scribed) Minor Heroism skill. Drake's Rush is arguably a decent set for dungeons, since it gives ultimate to 3 other players as well. Bloodspawn, on the other hand, is arguably more of a PvP set. You don't typically get hammered with lots of (small) attacks in PvE, like you do in PvP. This leaves Bloodspawn with a smaller proc chance in the former environment.

Thanks for the insight, good stuff.

Urzigurumash

fred4 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And for sure Frothgar + Atronach is the best by far.

Yay, someone who agrees with me! I don't usually see it recommended.

I'm a PvPer so my advice is suspect here, and I'll admit one of the more well-known PvErs on my server specifically recommended Sugar Skulls for Tanks.

I have no idea why, and even less idea why both Red Frothgar and Tripe Pocket haven't always been more popular. It was widely popular in PvP for some time to put points in Health and eat Lava Foot and and Ghastly Eye Bowl, I never did figure out if that was in fact a few points more efficient than points in Mag/Stam and eating the Orcish food instead.

But as my original main was an Orc DK the choice for me was always clear.

pelle412

Thoughts from a lifelong DK tank main here. I tanked most DLC trifectas.

Don't bother with stagger in 4-man content. You need your stamina for other things.

Don't bother with engulfing flames in 4-man content.

Don't permablock. Learn when it's safe to heavy attack ("heavy after heavy" is a saying).

Igneous shield is good defense and stamina return.

Use mages guild Balance skill for basically unlimited magicka sustain. If you run with a healer, just standing in their healing springs or getting hit by their combat prayer nullifies any downside to using Balance.

My favorite sets for 4-man DLC runs is Magma Incarnate helm set (good stats, minor courage buff for group), Turning Tide (major vulnerability, decent uptime), Drake's Rush (5pc backbar only, major heroism for group), Void bash sword shield. Proc both TT and Drake's with a bash on your backbar. You can change these sets up a little based on what your group may need and/or what your healer uses.

BXR_Lonestar

pelle412 wrote: »

My favorite sets for 4-man DLC runs is Magma Incarnate helm set (good stats, minor courage buff for group), Turning Tide (major vulnerability, decent uptime), Drake's Rush (5pc backbar only, major heroism for group), Void bash sword shield. Proc both TT and Drake's with a bash on your backbar. You can change these sets up a little based on what your group may need and/or what your healer uses.

I have my DK equipped with Tremorscale, Turning Tide, Crimson Oath, and voidbash (crimson oath backbar only). IMO, this is the best way to set up a tank because your DPS need a poultry ~ 2.5k penetration to maximize their damage against bosses.

I don't permablock with him either. He's an argonian, and I use potions to "cheese" his sustain, and so long as I time my heavy attacks just right, I can get by without having many/any orbs or shards tossed my way.

If I have some sustain issues or need additional support, I'll swap tremorscale for engine guardian or malubeth's scourge.

pelle412

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have my DK equipped with Tremorscale, Turning Tide, Crimson Oath, and voidbash (crimson oath backbar only). IMO, this is the best way to set up a tank because your DPS need a poultry ~ 2.5k penetration to maximize their damage against bosses.

I don't permablock with him either. He's an argonian, and I use potions to "cheese" his sustain, and so long as I time my heavy attacks just right, I can get by without having many/any orbs or shards tossed my way.

If I have some sustain issues or need additional support, I'll swap tremorscale for engine guardian or malubeth's scourge.

This is a fine setup too. My use of drake's is mainly that it helps provide more barriers during the hardmode/nodeath elements of trifectas.