We need 1 more skill slot for each bar. (Maybe..)

AvalonRanger · June 22

We need 1 more skill slot for each bar. (Maybe..)

5 is not good enough. Because, there're so many of skill line in ESO now.
I want to test new skill line, but I don't want to remove reliable old friend
from my combat bar.

Thormar · June 22

My understanding is they settled on the low number of 5, low for an mmo, to accommodate consoles.
If I remember correctly, though console launch was in 2015, the decision to support those platforms was made prior to 2014's pc launch.

TaSheen · June 22

Thormar wrote: »

My understanding is they settled on the low number of 5, low for an mmo, to accommodate consoles.
If I remember correctly, though console launch was in 2015, the decision to support those platforms was made prior to 2014's pc launch.

Yes, that's as far as I know from reading back a long time, correct. It's - seriously annoyingly limiting. I came from WoW and RIFT (though there were quite a few years between those games and ESO) and in those games I used nearly the entire keyboard for spells/abilities - which included CTRL, SHIFT, and the CTRL+SHIFT combo.

The limits in this game bother me to this day - after 7 years of play. *SIGH* I STILL find myself trying to keyboard spells as I used to do in those previous MMOs....

LunaFlora · June 22

Thormar wrote: »

My understanding is they settled on the low number of 5, low for an mmo, to accommodate consoles.
If I remember correctly, though console launch was in 2015, the decision to support those platforms was made prior to 2014's pc launch.

people also use controllers on PC so that would probably only be the reason if gamepad mode wasn't an option at launch.

LunaFlora · June 22

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Thormar · June 22

TaSheen wrote: »

The limits in this game bother me to this day - after 7 years of play. *SIGH* I STILL find myself trying to keyboard spells as I used to do in those previous MMOs....

ESO is definitely a very frustrating transition for longtime WOW players. Especially, since many systems were either actively designed to be somewhat dissimilar to those in WOW or they are just that way owing to the fact a lot of the initial ESO team were from a pre-WOW title.
And so they as devs were already accustomed to systems othervthan those in WOW.
Best example here being our Guild Trader system.

TechMaybeHic · June 22

No. And I use mouse and keyboard. Make the decision

TaSheen · June 22

Thormar wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

The limits in this game bother me to this day - after 7 years of play. *SIGH* I STILL find myself trying to keyboard spells as I used to do in those previous MMOs....

ESO is definitely a very frustrating transition for longtime WOW players. Especially, since many systems were either actively designed to be somewhat dissimilar to those in WOW or they are just that way owing to the fact a lot of the initial ESO team were from a pre-WOW title.
And so they as devs were already accustomed to systems othervthan those in WOW.
Best example here being our Guild Trader system.

Oh, I quite agree. I just have so many issues with the limitations placed on PC use (regarding keyboard options for keybinds etc) - I suppose I get that they wanted to make the game available to console users (as in.... MONEY....) but for long time users of PC, it's just plain gimped.

It bothers me to the point I look at the issues and think.... wait - WHY am I paying 4 annual subs for a game that prefers consoles and their limitations to how things should at minimum work on PC? I love the game, but.... there's going to be a point at which I decide to take my money and go away.

That's.... sad. I've been playing TES since Arena released in 1994. I've played the games in the entire franchise one after the other as they released. TES is my home in the world of gaming. I'm looking at the compromises made for other platforms.... and I'm not happy.

I can go back to playing (for FREE) Oblivion and Skyrim.... and I'm not convinced I'll live long enough to play TES VI. Oh.... I might be alive.... but able to play? I - kind of think that might be an issue....

Thormar · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Agreed. Gamepad layouts pose a limitation that would be very difficult to circumvent even with the addition of just a single skill slot, as is being suggested by OP.

Thormar · June 22

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh, I quite agree. I just have so many issues with the limitations placed on PC use (regarding keyboard options for keybinds etc) - I suppose I get that they wanted to make the game available to console users (as in.... MONEY....) but for long time users of PC, it's just plain gimped.

It bothers me to the point I look at the issues and think.... wait - WHY am I paying 4 annual subs for a game that prefers consoles and their limitations to how things should at minimum work on PC? I love the game, but.... there's going to be a point at which I decide to take my money and go away.

That's.... sad. I've been playing TES since Arena released in 1994. I've played the games in the entire franchise one after the other as they released. TES is my home in the world of gaming. I'm looking at the compromises made for other platforms.... and I'm not happy.

I can go back to playing (for FREE) Oblivion and Skyrim....

My guess is they looked over the 'divide' and noting how huge the established TES fan base is on console platforms, the decision must have been made, by both ZOS and Bethesda I suspect, that they can't be left behind.
And from that went with console support, doing the best they can within those limitations - and obviously there's a ton of them, making for a frustrating experience to those like yourself here from pc only mmos.

TaSheen · June 22

Thormar wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh, I quite agree. I just have so many issues with the limitations placed on PC use (regarding keyboard options for keybinds etc) - I suppose I get that they wanted to make the game available to console users (as in.... MONEY....) but for long time users of PC, it's just plain gimped.

It bothers me to the point I look at the issues and think.... wait - WHY am I paying 4 annual subs for a game that prefers consoles and their limitations to how things should at minimum work on PC? I love the game, but.... there's going to be a point at which I decide to take my money and go away.

That's.... sad. I've been playing TES since Arena released in 1994. I've played the games in the entire franchise one after the other as they released. TES is my home in the world of gaming. I'm looking at the compromises made for other platforms.... and I'm not happy.

I can go back to playing (for FREE) Oblivion and Skyrim....

My guess is they looked over the 'divide' and noting how huge the established TES fan base is on console platforms, the decision must have been made, by both ZOS and Bethesda I suspect, that they can't be left behind.
And from that went with console support, doing the best they can within those limitations - and obviously there's a ton of them, making for a frustrating experience to those like yourself here from pc only mmos.

Yes. It's serious problem for me. I've never used consoles. Why would I? PCs are so much better. Ah well. I suppose I can be considered a "dinosaur". I bought my first PC in 1985.... I'm not likely to EVER change to another platform.

My daughter built this machine for me in March this year. My last machine was bespoke built from CyberPowerPC - closing in on 10 years ago - and still runs the game just fine. It's now my "backup" - in case of an emergency (which I can't even think what that would be, but who knows? - It's ALWAYS good to have backup!)

In any case, the limitations on PC for the consoles really get me going - and that's about all I'm going to say, because.... reasons....

LunaFlora · June 22

TaSheen wrote: »

Thormar wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

The limits in this game bother me to this day - after 7 years of play. *SIGH* I STILL find myself trying to keyboard spells as I used to do in those previous MMOs....

ESO is definitely a very frustrating transition for longtime WOW players. Especially, since many systems were either actively designed to be somewhat dissimilar to those in WOW or they are just that way owing to the fact a lot of the initial ESO team were from a pre-WOW title.
And so they as devs were already accustomed to systems othervthan those in WOW.
Best example here being our Guild Trader system.

Oh, I quite agree. I just have so many issues with the limitations placed on PC use (regarding keyboard options for keybinds etc) - I suppose I get that they wanted to make the game available to console users (as in.... MONEY....) but for long time users of PC, it's just plain gimped.

It bothers me to the point I look at the issues and think.... wait - WHY am I paying 4 annual subs for a game that prefers consoles and their limitations to how things should at minimum work on PC? I love the game, but.... there's going to be a point at which I decide to take my money and go away.

That's.... sad. I've been playing TES since Arena released in 1994. I've played the games in the entire franchise one after the other as they released. TES is my home in the world of gaming. I'm looking at the compromises made for other platforms.... and I'm not happy.

I can go back to playing (for FREE) Oblivion and Skyrim.... and I'm not convinced I'll live long enough to play TES VI. Oh.... I might be alive.... but able to play? I - kind of think that might be an issue....

people use controllers on PC too.

The game doesn't prefer consoles, zos just supports multiple platforms which does include PlayStation and Xbox.

if by console's limitations you're referring to stuff like furnishing limits then that makes no sense as PCs with hardware and operating systems (forgot os minimum requirements changed with update 41) older than ps4 and xbox1 can play eso.

notyuu · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

They could have made the left and right bumpers into modifiers i.e. RB+X for skill 4, RB+Y for skill 5 and so on and so fourth

ArchMikem · June 22

Nice Console hate thread.

Same people that jump down my throat when we mention PC always getting new content at least two weeks early.

Abnaxos · June 22

notyuu wrote: »

They could have made the left and right bumpers into modifiers i.e. RB+X for skill 4, RB+Y for skill 5 and so on and so fourth

That's exactly what I did in my controller mapping. Cross=jump, square=interact (yep, separate buttons for the two, one of the worst problems of the default controller mapping solved), circle=dodge/(hold)crouch, triangle=pet. Holding down L2 switches to combat mode, which actually has 3 unused buttons this way. I've also mapped Guild Wars 2 using this concept, but there I had to add R2 as second combat modifier for the utility skills. BTW, as a side note, I'm using the gyro for targeting/aiming in both games, so my right thumb doesn't have to switch between the stick and the buttons.

These mappings are both inspired by FFXIV, which allows access to 48 skills on controller: L2, double-L2, R2, double-R2, L2+R2, R2+L2, each combined with one of the face buttons makes 6x8=48 skills at your fingertips. I'd actually say that keyboard/mouse players are at a disadvantage in FFXIV, which is probably the reason why many K/M players switch to controller for combat.

However, the amount of skills needed for combat is precisely one of the reasons why I left FFXIV (there are many more reasons of course). This "skill explosion" is just bad game design, IMHO.

So, now that we've established that the gamepad isn't a limiting factor, I'd say it's a design decision – and a good one at that. One could argue that Guild Wars 2 hit a better balance with the addition of 4 utility skills to the 2x5 weapon skills + ultimate, but the general idea of reducing the amount of skills available at a time is one of the biggest reasons I prefer these two games over FFXIV.

MJallday · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Third bar (optional)?

OsUfi · June 22

TaSheen wrote: »

Thormar wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh, I quite agree. I just have so many issues with the limitations placed on PC use (regarding keyboard options for keybinds etc) - I suppose I get that they wanted to make the game available to console users (as in.... MONEY....) but for long time users of PC, it's just plain gimped.

It bothers me to the point I look at the issues and think.... wait - WHY am I paying 4 annual subs for a game that prefers consoles and their limitations to how things should at minimum work on PC? I love the game, but.... there's going to be a point at which I decide to take my money and go away.

That's.... sad. I've been playing TES since Arena released in 1994. I've played the games in the entire franchise one after the other as they released. TES is my home in the world of gaming. I'm looking at the compromises made for other platforms.... and I'm not happy.

I can go back to playing (for FREE) Oblivion and Skyrim....

My guess is they looked over the 'divide' and noting how huge the established TES fan base is on console platforms, the decision must have been made, by both ZOS and Bethesda I suspect, that they can't be left behind.
And from that went with console support, doing the best they can within those limitations - and obviously there's a ton of them, making for a frustrating experience to those like yourself here from pc only mmos.

PCs are so much better.

Oh lordy, I hate seeing folks that may be as old as me, that have been playing computer games for so long, still spouting this pish wash.

Come on, man. You be better.

Ulvich · June 22

I totally agree.

KS_Amt38 · June 22

I dont care about console, but i dont need an additional skill slot.

FafiQ_xP · June 22

nah man its perfect just the way it is.

Tandor · June 22

Having spent many years on EQ2 and WoW among others including LoTRO where the number of abilities on multiple hotbars became ridiculous, leading too often to spamming a whole line of attacks which individually became indistinguishable and pretty meaningless, I welcomed the limited display of abilities in ESO as a welcome break from the previous combat style together with the introduction of an element of tactical choice involved in selecting a limited number of abilities for one or two short hotbars. I also much prefer an uncluttered display of the game world without the screen being half-filled with rows of hotbars.

I still much prefer it, and whenever I've gone back into one of the other games I've hated the whole line-up of abilities and the mass spamming involved in using them. I only use a second hotbar in ESO with certain characters, and don't have Oakensoul. I use mouse and keyboard on PC with no addons. It works very well for my solo questing-oriented playstyle.

mocap · June 22

As an option to make ulti slot available for other skills. For some sort of balance, this can be done through mythic that allows any skill in ultimate slot on the front bar. Or something like that, whatever.

Elsonso · June 22

The way that I heard it, and this may be the whole story or just part of the story, is that they wanted a clean, minimalist user interface and wanted the player to concentrate on the combat action and not on the UI and pressing skill buttons.

The decision to make the mouse buttons primary for combat is very Elder Scrolls. It does change the dynamic to where the player is focused more on positioning relative to what they are fighting in order to be in a position to attack. I know this is very different from how WoW does things, where the game and UI does all of the heavy lifting for the player that simply pushes buttons in a specific order, or when the icon flashes.

I have no idea how they arrived at 5 skills + Ultimate. It does force the player to weigh and consider what is important to them. It could also be seen as a means to funnel players into situations where they may need other players to provide options that do not fit.

I have also heard comments in the past about how the second weapon was intended to be simply that; it is a second weapon. The way they talked in one interview, it did not seem like the idea of a rotation where the player swapped bars to get 10 skills was part of the design. That may have been invented by the players, like the "all in" approach to allocating points to attributes.

Interestingly, I question the reliability of the D-Pad for the purpose of active combat. Maybe it is built better than it looks. (Edit: my last two XBox controllers were replaced because the "A" button stopped being reliable, and those buttons look a lot more reliable than the D-Pad.)

Personofsecrets · June 22

One thought that I've had is that they should add the 6th skill slot, but it be just a place for players to put passive effects.

Ph1p · June 22

Not only would this be a pain for players using gamepads, but it would also upset the combat balance of the game and make the game less strategic. Without even going into the effect of the extra skill, people would automatically gain more power from "slotted skill" passives. And with more ability slots, there are fewer trade-offs and strategic choices required. No need to weigh the impact of exchanging a damage skill for a shield any more - just slot both!

All this just so someone doesn't have to drop an existing ability when testing out a new one? No thanks.

moo_2021 · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Chatpad

I'm still struggling because it's too crowded and not designed to be used in combat.

master_vanargand · June 22

If feel like you don't have enough skill slots, that just means the game balance is just right.
Sacrifice something to gain something. That's balance.

SpiritofESO · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Totally agree.

When you're operating tool is a hand-held controller and not a keyboard-and-mouse you have limitations. None of which bother me at all.

Vynera · June 22

I already struggle to keep all dots/skills active with 5 skills on each bar, don't need more.

LannStone · June 22

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Argh, that hurts my eyes, looks so complicated for lifelong mouse and keyboard player!

AvalonRanger · June 23

LunaFlora wrote: »

so which buttons would we use for that extra skill if we're using gamepads/controllers?
there aren't really any buttons left

Ah...I forget about game pad layout.
But definitely, we need one more slot.