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No One in the History of Humanity Has Ever Kept a Staff On Their Back
disky
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And before we get started, I know it's not going to change, but I need to vent, and provide an alternative. Staves are long sticks that are used for stabilization and support while walking. If you carry a staff on your back, you're ignoring the actual reason for their existence. There are many possible ways to handle the animations for carrying a staff. I get that it would interfere with emotes but I think it would be worthwhile to just make the staff disappear while they're playing. The only reason I have characters that use them is because there are styles available which make the staff disappear when stored. I do also think it would be great if we could swap the staff for an orb, book, scepter or other magical focus which doesn't have this issue, by the way.
Look at this cool guy. He sure knows what's up:
Look at this cool guy. He sure knows what's up:
5
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Nathrai✭✭✭✭Really? You start your argument with a false premise?
No, not all staffs are meant as walking supports. Actually, staffs in ESO are more closely related to staffs used in Boujutsu when it comes to functionality - that is, mostly used for fighting.
And how are Bou usually carried? Right, on the back ...
(Well, in a bag, but for vanity reasons we want to actually display our weapons when not in a fight ...
) Azura'm s'wit37 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Really? You start your argument with a false premise?
No, not all staffs are meant as walking supports. Actually, staffs in ESO are more closely related to staffs used in Boujutsu when it comes to functionality - that is, mostly used for fighting.
And how are Bou usually carried? Right, on the back ...
(Well, in a bag, but for vanity reasons we want to actually display our weapons when not in a fight ... )
So you're using a modern, collapsible weapon that you carry in a bag on your back. That's not at all the same thing. And to be clear, this is not a fighting staff in the same sense as a martial staff would be, although I wouldn't mind seeing a Martial Staff weapon skill tree. The objects that fantasy wizard staves are based on come from canes, staves and scepters from tribal cultures and antiquity, used by elders, often for support because they usually just needed them for support.
This:
6 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t recall any spell-casting staves in the real world. And so none carried on the back is also true, but your logic is like dividing by zero.42 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Staves are long sticks that are used for stabilization and support while walking. If you carry a staff on your back, you're ignoring the actual reason for their existence.
My staves are long sticks that are used for magical combat. I carry my staff on my back while being out of combat because I like having two hands free for picking flowers.37 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Staves are long sticks that are used for stabilization and support while walking. If you carry a staff on your back, you're ignoring the actual reason for their existence.
My staves are long sticks that are used for magical combat. I carry my staff on my back while being out of combat because I like having two hands free for picking flowers.
As an all-powerful wizard, is it inconceivable that you could make the staff disappear when you're doing something that doesn't require it?
It's not impossible for this to work, other games have done it without issues:
https://youtu.be/9oaa4oKNR5c?feature=shared&t=31 2 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Gloambound weapons are actually invisible when sheathed, so if it bothers you that much you can go for that.7 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Gloambound weapons are actually invisible when sheathed, so if it bothers you that much you can go for that.
I noted that I do in the original post. That's not the point. The point is that the default animations are silly and we can do better, and there should be alternatives available which don't require the use of staves.Edited by disky on June 15, 2024 2:38PM1 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I noted that I do in the original post.
Ok, cool. Missed that remark.
That's not the point. The point is that the default animations are silly and we can do better, and there should be alternatives available which don't require the use of staves.
I would like to respectfully disagree. I think the comparison to walking sticks is a bit silly and I don't really care about the staff being on the back. More options would be cool, but the staves were like this from the start and I think there's many other things that would make players happy than realistic magical animations.
It's just not that much of an issue, IMHO.9 -
Nathrai✭✭✭✭So you're using a modern, collapsible weapon that you carry in a bag on your back. That's not at all the same thing. And to be clear, this is not a fighting staff in the same sense as a martial staff would be, although I wouldn't mind seeing a Martial Staff weapon skill tree. The objects that fantasy wizard staves are based on come from canes, staves and scepters from tribal cultures and antiquity, used by elders, often for support because they usually just needed them for support.
This:
So, comparing a mages staff used for fighting to a "modern" (actually, one of the oldest weapons in Eastern Asia, but even in its current tradition dating back to the 15th century) weapon is not admissible. Comparing a mages staff used for fighting to an actual walking stick from Middle Earth is ...?
And let's not get into the whole "fantasy wizard" debate. Each and every fantasy world has their own interpretation of magic users, and know what? On Nirn (or at least in Tamriel), mages of all ages use staffs to channel Destruction or Restoration spells, not for walking.
It's one thing to say "I wish there was an option to carry my staff in other ways" and using false premises and strawmen to complain about ... nothing.Azura'm s'wit12 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭It's just not that much of an issue, IMHO.
You're absolutely right. It's just a weird, silly thing that doesn't make any sense and it has always bothered me. I would like to make a couple of additional points though:
Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
Previous TES games never had this problem.2 -
Nathrai✭✭✭✭As an all-powerful wizard, is it inconceivable that you could make the staff disappear when you're doing something that doesn't require it?
It's not impossible for this to work, other games have done it without issues:
Great, go play other games. Problem solved ...
Btw, we're not playing all-powerful wizards in ESO. And while we all suffer from Vestige/Hero of XY/Saviour of XY complex, not every mage on Nirn is running around with portable pocket dimensions to send our staff to (I could go on a rant about how complex everything pertaining to translocation is in the Elder Scrolls background, despite how many portal experts pop up during the various storylines ... but citing Gandalf and BDO as references already shows you have zilch interest in the actual Elder Scrolls background).
So, most mages do the one sensible thing: carry their staff of their back.Azura'm s'wit10 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭So you're using a modern, collapsible weapon that you carry in a bag on your back. That's not at all the same thing. And to be clear, this is not a fighting staff in the same sense as a martial staff would be, although I wouldn't mind seeing a Martial Staff weapon skill tree. The objects that fantasy wizard staves are based on come from canes, staves and scepters from tribal cultures and antiquity, used by elders, often for support because they usually just needed them for support.
This:
So, comparing a mages staff used for fighting to a "modern" (actually, one of the oldest weapons in Eastern Asia, but even in its current tradition dating back to the 15th century) weapon is not admissible. Comparing a mages staff used for fighting to an actual walking stick from Middle Earth is ...?
And let's not get into the whole "fantasy wizard" debate. Each and every fantasy world has their own interpretation of magic users, and know what? On Nirn (or at least in Tamriel), mages of all ages use staffs to channel Destruction or Restoration spells, not for walking.
It's one thing to say "I wish there was an option to carry my staff in other ways" and using false premises and strawmen to complain about ... nothing.
No, I'm saying you're using a modern staff which isn't like the ones that are used in this context. The one you have is very likely not the same kind that the original martial art used, which were, and largely still seem to be, just sticks or poles. You're making a false equivalency, they're simply not the same thing, not for the same purpose.Edited by disky on June 15, 2024 2:58PM1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭As an all-powerful wizard, is it inconceivable that you could make the staff disappear when you're doing something that doesn't require it?
It's not impossible for this to work, other games have done it without issues:
Great, go play other games. Problem solved ...
Btw, we're not playing all-powerful wizards in ESO. And while we all suffer from Vestige/Hero of XY/Saviour of XY complex, not every mage on Nirn is running around with portable pocket dimensions to send our staff to (I could go on a rant about how complex everything pertaining to translocation is in the Elder Scrolls background, despite how many portal experts pop up during the various storylines ... but citing Gandalf and BDO as references already shows you have zilch interest in the actual Elder Scrolls background).
So, most mages do the one sensible thing: carry their staff of their back.
I love TES. No other TES game has ever done this, as far as I'm aware.1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭No, I'm saying you're using a modern staff which isn't like the ones that are used in this context. The one you have is very likely not the same kind that the original martial art used, which were, and largely still seem to be, just sticks or poles. You're making a false equivalency, they're simply not the same thing, not for the same purpose.
[snip]
How many of your boujutsu colleagues carry a staff in the exact manner that is presented in ESO? Can you give me a visual?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 15, 2024 5:19PM1 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
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Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
Previous TES games never had this problem.
Well, things that are objectively an issue or problem should get solved.
I don't think this is an issue.2 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭
I'm aware, but that isn't the point. Staves are meant to be carried in the hand. It doesn't make any sense for a staff to be kept on the back, and the fact that they are is weird and distracting. I already use a style which hides the staff for any character I have that uses them.
Not that I ever expect it to change, as I noted in the very first sentence of the OP. I just needed to vent, and also propose/request alternatives.Edited by disky on June 15, 2024 3:21PM1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭
Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
Previous TES games never had this problem.
Well, things that are objectively an issue or problem should get solved.
I don't think this is an issue.
I accepted that it wouldn't change in the very first sentence of my OP.1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭
First of all, sheathes could be every bit as cool-looking as any sword blade, but while keeping blades stored unsheathed is silly as well, I accept that because at least they're in a reasonably acceptable position. It's conceivable that a sword could be kept on the back, whereas a full-length staff makes absolutely no sense there.
I don't see why you're presenting your boujutsu anecdote as relevant to the conversation if there aren't actually any examples of a non-collapsible staff being kept that way. Again, they're just not the same thing. If you have a full-length staff, you're carrying it in the hand.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 15, 2024 5:21PM1 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
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Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
Previous TES games never had this problem.
Well, things that are objectively an issue or problem should get solved.
I don't think this is an issue.
I accepted that it wouldn't change in the very first sentence of my OP.
Yeah, I read that, but that wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to your statement which seems to indicate that you believe this should be changed:
Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
I'm just trying to say that I think most people don't have this in their top 10 or top 50 or top 100 of things that should change in this game. IMHO problems and issues should be fixed. This may be an issue for you, but I think most people don't care that much about their fictional fantasy game character carrying their staves in an unrealistic way.2 -
Nathrai✭✭✭✭Staves are meant to be carried in the hand. It doesn't make any sense for a staff to be kept on the back, and the fact that they are is weird and distracting.
Which has been disproven already. This is YOUR preference, so feel free to use whatever means you can come up with to hide your staff.
Again, not being cocky and claiming your preferences to be an universal truth would make people MUCH MORE sympathetic to your request.
I bet many people would have seconded a simple request for alternative ways of "sheathing" weapons. Hey, I myself would have been on your side, because more variety is always welcome. I actually wished the "twin blades on back" animation we get with some spells was an option, realistic or not - it just looks mighty nifty.
But you're VERY proficient at making people not want to back you ...Azura'm s'wit7 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭
Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
Previous TES games never had this problem.
Well, things that are objectively an issue or problem should get solved.
I don't think this is an issue.
I accepted that it wouldn't change in the very first sentence of my OP.
Yeah, I read that, but that wasn't what I was responding to. I was responding to your statement which seems to indicate that you believe this should be changed:
Just because something is the way it is, and has always been, that doesn't mean it's correct, and it doesn't mean that it couldn't or shouldn't be changed.
I'm just trying to say that I think most people don't have this in their top 10 or top 50 or top 100 of things that should change in this game. IMHO problems and issues should be fixed. This may be an issue for you, but I think most people don't care that much about their fictional fantasy game character carrying their staves in an unrealistic way.
In the second sentence of my OP, I noted that I came here to vent and provide alternatives. I am fully aware of the priorities of developers and players alike.1 -
AnduinTryggva✭✭✭✭✭
✭And before we get started, I know it's not going to change, but I need to vent, and provide an alternative. Staves are long sticks that are used for stabilization and support while walking. If you carry a staff on your back, you're ignoring the actual reason for their existence. There are many possible ways to handle the animations for carrying a staff. I get that it would interfere with emotes but I think it would be worthwhile to just make the staff disappear while they're playing. The only reason I have characters that use them is because there are styles available which make the staff disappear when stored. I do also think it would be great if we could swap the staff for an orb, book, scepter or other magical focus which doesn't have this issue, by the way.
Look at this cool guy. He sure knows what's up:
I have to find that threat but there was once the statement from ZOS that they don't change cosmetics after release unless there is a technical reason for it (like bugs or so). Because they will earn fire from those who like it as it was released.
Irrespective how I see this statement it tells you and us that you can request this but it will never be implemented. Sorry to say that.0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭AnduinTryggva wrote: »And before we get started, I know it's not going to change, but I need to vent, and provide an alternative. Staves are long sticks that are used for stabilization and support while walking. If you carry a staff on your back, you're ignoring the actual reason for their existence. There are many possible ways to handle the animations for carrying a staff. I get that it would interfere with emotes but I think it would be worthwhile to just make the staff disappear while they're playing. The only reason I have characters that use them is because there are styles available which make the staff disappear when stored. I do also think it would be great if we could swap the staff for an orb, book, scepter or other magical focus which doesn't have this issue, by the way.
Look at this cool guy. He sure knows what's up:
I have to find that threat but there was once the statement from ZOS that they don't change cosmetics after release unless there is a technical reason for it (like bugs or so). Because they will earn fire from those who like it as it was released.
Irrespective how I see this statement it tells you and us that you can request this but it will never be implemented. Sorry to say that.
I repeat, this is accepted in the first sentence of my OP.1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While magic staves don't exist in reality, they have existed in myths since antiquity, in many different parts of the world (examples would be the Staff of Hermes in Greek mythology or Ruyi Jingu Bang, the staff of the Chinese deity Sun Wukong). There are contemporary written sources as well as artistic depictions of them.
When it comes to the real world, we could take a look at ceremonial staves who didn't have a real, but at least a symbolic/religious "power" that could be compared to magic (as things like the ability to dispel evil spirits or even healing powers were attributed to them).
In both cases the items often aren't only seen as having a magic power, but are also used as a physical weapon. Sometimes written sources even vary whether the item is a staff or a spear, so there's a certain overlap.
OP is right that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the staff ist not carried on the wielder's back, but held in one hand.
One should take into considering though, that in reality, these items are only used in a limited context (like a ceremony), and in myths they're also mostly described or depicted while being in use. Our ESO character carries their staff all the time, though - including while sitting in taverns, while swimming, while picking flowers or mining ore, etc. So I see why ZOS decided that they should be carried on characters' backs when not in use.
The only issue I have is that they look like they're glued on. They should have a strap or something like that. While that wasn't historically common, these things are sometimes used by LARPers and I think it doesn't look bad:
https://www.larpinn.co.uk/spear-strap-pr-9679.html
Edited by Syldras on June 15, 2024 4:01PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire6 -
Katheriah✭✭✭✭✭
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Hmm, guess when people say what they love most about ESO is the community, they don't mean the forum users*.
I do have to admit that I kind of missed the humour in the post, sorry about that. Communication without intonation or facial expressions (and often with people who don't use their native language) can be a bit challenging. In my own first posts I was trying to be helpful and while I apparantly missed the mark there, I too was taken aback a bit by your responses in return.
I will let this subject rest for now, but who knows. Maybe you have inspired ZOS to think of alternatives. They have already given us shiny magical bookies with Arcanist, so they might do more like that.
*This was my try to be funny, please don't take it too seriously.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 15, 2024 5:22PM1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭One should take into considering though, that in reality, these items are only used in a limited context (like a ceremony), and in myths they're also mostly described or depicted while being in use. Our ESO character carries their staff all the time, though - including while sitting in taverns, while swimming, while picking flowers or mining ore, etc. So I see why ZOS decided that they should be carried on characters' backs when not in use.
The only issue I have is that they look like they're glued on. They should have a strap or something like that. While that wasn't historically common, these things are sometimes used by LARPers and I think it doesn't look bad:
https://www.larpinn.co.uk/spear-strap-pr-9679.html
I think that while the staves in ESO could be considered ceremonial things, I'd assume that a traveling adventurer most likely wouldn't be carrying something made for a special event. It would be something more akin to Gandalf's staff, or maybe a shakujo:
Something meant for traveling or long-term use.
And while I understand the practicality of the strap for LARPers carrying something like that on their back, especially a spear or other polearm, the historical provenance is dubious at best. Moreover, I'm certain that the traditional wizard's staff as depicted in Tolkien's work and everything that draws from it is related to the canes and staves that elderfolk would use in their daily lives. They might hold totemic or ritual significance as well, but I would bet that a lot of them were simply meant for the elderly as a mobility tool, because this is the kind of person who would be considered an oracle or an alchemist or a wizard.1 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The shakujō is an interesting example for a multi-functional staff in general; actually I already thought of linking this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khakkhara
It's worth a read for people who are interested in this topic.
The question that remains though is: What would the player character do with their staff during all those activities that are part of ESO's typical game play? Swimming? Fishing? Picking up things? Different emotes during quests? Many of these require both hands.
I personally wouldn't like my staff to just disappear. It's a physical weapon, not a summoned one. Teleporting it where ever wouldn't seem reasonable as player characters aren't able to open any portals or to teleport themselves in ESO. Also for some of my characters their staff is an important symbol of their background and group affiliation, and therefore also their status in society.
Personally, I don't think historical aspects, or how it is handled in myths or other works of fantasy fiction necessarily have to define how things are in the world of The Elder Scrolls. TES' mer aren't Tolkien's Elves either, same goes for the orcs. TES wizards aren't neccessarily monks, shamans or wise men/women (or something alike) like the staff wielders in some myths.
Edited by Syldras on June 15, 2024 5:11PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire2 -
LaintalAy✭✭✭✭✭For reasons of deportment, I use clenched buttcheeks to transport my staves.Game over, manHudson ~ Aliens ~ 19868
