Necromancing in cities vs daedric summoning in cities

AnduinTryggva · May 30

I play ESO for probably 6 years now (lost count) and the necromancers are part of our world also since a couple of years. For some years I never have spent a single thought on the weirdness that certain necromancer activities are highly disliked in cities while it is ok to run around with deadric pets and even to summon them on the market place.

That is really strange. Anyone has an explanation for that blind eye the populations turn on these pets?

IncultaWolf · May 30

Sorcerers summoning a giant demon flappy bird is OK, but necromancer summons a tiny little ghosty boi👻 and every guard in the city instantly tries to kill you. Amazing isn't it?

It was mainly done to sell the class to roleplayers as a gimmick, and at the time it was interesting, and a fair trade off for the class being strong, but now the class is garbage and the justice system mechanic with their abilities are just an annoyance now.

Rasande_Robin · May 30

Necromancy is a taboo in the world.
Personally I love the little extra flavor of having "criminal act" skills. Just wished there were more things like Guards telling you to holster your weapons and if you spam magic skills they will give you a warning.

Even telling you to remove your "summons" in some parts of cities.

Syldras · May 30

From a lore perspective: The summoning of lesser daedra doesn't seem to be seen as dangerous as summoning the undead. It was also never legally forbidden, as far as I know (although, to be fair, there wasn't a necromancy ban in all of Tamriel at all times either). Also, necromancy can certainly be seen as desecration of the dead (and therefore a religious and social taboo), while daedra summoning does not involve any mortal being whose honor could be damaged.

Although, of course, with all kind of weird polymorphs (spriggans, harrowing reapers, soulrazer knights and lichs at the bank, anyone?) and mounts, it all doesn't make any sense anyway.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 30

Syldras wrote: »

From a lore perspective: The summoning of lesser daedra doesn't seem to be seen as dangerous as summoning the undead. It was also never legally forbidden, as far as I know (although, to be fair, there wasn't a necromancy ban in all of Tamriel at all times either). Also, necromancy can certainly be seen as desecration of the dead (and therefore a religious and social taboo), while daedra summoning does not involve any mortal being whose honor could be damaged.

Although, of course, with all kind of weird polymorphs (spriggans, harrowing reapers, soulrazer knights and lichs at the bank, anyone?) and mounts, it all doesn't make any sense anyway.

Context is important though - Tamriel is literally being sieged by hordes of Daedra. I find it pretty asinine that Sorcs can summon their pets in town without any repercussions when people are being slaughtered by Daedra constantly during this era.

Yamenstein · May 30

As annoying as it is I think daedra worship is a-okay lore wise. I mean sounds everyone be happy with their pets taking up space? No probably not. Is it a criminal? Guess not.

To be honest if ZoS leaning into all of this they may as well add zombie skins to the necro summons. Bone constructs are just so meh.

TybaltKaine · May 30

There was no Justice system in the game at launch. That's the reason.

TaSheen · May 30

I don't worry about it. I don't ever have pets out in towns - neither bear nor daedra. So if it got whacked, I might personally think it was stupid, but I wouldn't see a change in how I play.

Syldras · May 30

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Context is important though - Tamriel is literally being sieged by hordes of Daedra. I find it pretty asinine that Sorcs can summon their pets in town without any repercussions when people are being slaughtered by Daedra constantly during this era.

Then ZOS would have to change lore, say there was a new decree, or whatever. But momentarily, there is no ban on daedric summonings, plain and simple. Even NPCs summon lesser daedra in public, like that one mage in the tavern in Gideon who conjures a flame atronach just to dance for his entertainment. And wasn't there something about the Mages Guild using scamps to carry messenges?

TybaltKaine · May 30

By that same logic, there should be exclusionary zones in ESO for Necromancy, as the legality depends entirely on the province. Cyrodiil for example doesn't care, Elsweyr for the most part doesn't care, High Rock you basically need to live in a sewer.

That level of nuance is too much work though.

kargen27 · May 30

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

From a lore perspective: The summoning of lesser daedra doesn't seem to be seen as dangerous as summoning the undead. It was also never legally forbidden, as far as I know (although, to be fair, there wasn't a necromancy ban in all of Tamriel at all times either). Also, necromancy can certainly be seen as desecration of the dead (and therefore a religious and social taboo), while daedra summoning does not involve any mortal being whose honor could be damaged.

Although, of course, with all kind of weird polymorphs (spriggans, harrowing reapers, soulrazer knights and lichs at the bank, anyone?) and mounts, it all doesn't make any sense anyway.

Context is important though - Tamriel is literally being sieged by hordes of Daedra. I find it pretty asinine that Sorcs can summon their pets in town without any repercussions when people are being slaughtered by Daedra constantly during this era.

I see the pets as basically just another weapon and so long as you aren't attacking innocents with them you are good to go. I can run around brandishing my sword and nobody says anything. I whomp a chicken with it while in town though and the guards wrath will come down hard upon me.

BlueRaven · May 30

There are daedric vendors selling their wares in Tamriel. NPC mages use daedric creatures to carry messages regularly. There are even merchants using magical elemental constructs as stock animals.

Daedric cults are frowned upon, but not necessarily illegal (edit: at this time in Tamriel’s history.)

Raising the dead? Yeah that is illegal.

NordSwordnBoard · May 30

I remember this discussion years back, and what I got was:

Necromancy is outlawed - That dead entity you raised might've been related to the town guard.
Nightblade fear ghost is Illusion magic, not a real ghost.
Daedra are accepted, we use daedra to fight other daedra and NPCs do as well.
Bears in overland attack you on sight, and can't be reasoned with like Daedra. We only care if they block writ turn ins though.

Desiato · May 30

Sorc pets snorting in my ear should be illegal for sure.

Syldras · May 30

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I remember this discussion years back, and what I got was:
Necromancy is outlawed - That dead entity you raised might've been related to the town guard.
Nightblade fear ghost is Illusion magic, not a real ghost.
Daedra are accepted, we use daedra to fight other daedra and NPCs do as well.
Bears in overland attack you on sight, and can't be reasoned with like Daedra. We only care if they block writ turn ins though.

The thought of a conjurer reasoning with his daedric summons amuses me

On a more serious note, the bears of the wardens aren't normal bears either. This is the official description: "Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality." They're basically something like the Bosmer Spinners.

tsaescishoeshiner · May 30

I just wish necromancers wouldn't get bounty while dueling. It's just a limitation on having fun dueling wherever players happen to be, like next to city wayshrines.

cyclonus11 · May 30

Necromancy is basically the torture of your deceased ancestors and loved ones. Daedra summoning is bad, but not as bad as that.

Lazarus_Rising · June 1

Lorewise all the skills which actually using corpses are necromancy. Summoning undead is not necromancy. This is a clear distincition in Elder Scrolls. Thats why for example summoning zombies and skeletons is not forbidden in Oblivion.

Therefore Blastbones or the Mender is not necromancy. Should be no crime then.

Syldras · June 1

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

Lorewise all the skills which actually using corpses are necromancy. Summoning undead is not necromancy. This is a clear distincition in Elder Scrolls. Thats why for example summoning zombies and skeletons is not forbidden in Oblivion.

Where does the undead come from? If it hasn't been a mortal how is it undead? How would a guard know whether it's this type of "summoning undead" and not normal necromantic "summoning undead"? If zombies run around town and scare the inhabitants the guards will just be okay with it because "it's not the necromancy skill summoning undead that I'm using"?

I know that in Oblivion there was an exception gameplay-wise. But it's not a question of lore.

Lazarus_Rising · June 1

Syldras wrote: »

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

Lorewise all the skills which actually using corpses are necromancy. Summoning undead is not necromancy. This is a clear distincition in Elder Scrolls. Thats why for example summoning zombies and skeletons is not forbidden in Oblivion.

Where does the undead come from? If it hasn't been a mortal how is it undead? How would a guard know whether it's this type of "summoning undead" and not normal necromantic "summoning undead"? If zombies run around town and scare the inhabitants the guards will just be okay with it because "it's not the necromancy skill summoning undead that I'm using"?

I know that in Oblivion there was an exception gameplay-wise. But it's not a question of lore.

The same could be said for all kind of Daedra aswell. How do you know it is a summon and not a free being? Also necromancy is not forbidden everywhere. Morrowind for example has necromancy strictly forbidden. In the empire itself necromancy is not a crime but its frowned upon.

Syldras · June 1

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

The same could be said for all kind of Daedra aswell. How do you know it is a summon and not a free being?

It's accompanied by a mage (mostly - one exception is the Mages Guild that may send lesser daedra as messengers) and obviously under control and not causing any rampage.

The thing that matters mostly isn't even the possible danger, though, but the religious and moral taboo. You (as in: the typical 2rd era Tamrielic person) just don't desecrate the dead. So if there's a person with a zombie in town, it will cause outrage. People will hardly ask in which way it was summoned or whether it's only illusion magic, they will be repulsed and react accordingly. And the guards will want to prevent such situations. Even if necromancy itself may not be forbidden in one territory, disturbing the peace within cities certainly is.

Lazarus_Rising · June 1

Syldras wrote: »

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

The same could be said for all kind of Daedra aswell. How do you know it is a summon and not a free being?

It's accompanied by a mage (mostly - one exception is the Mages Guild that may send lesser daedra as messengers) and obviously under control and not causing any rampage.

The thing that matters mostly isn't even the possible danger, though, but the religious and moral taboo. You (as in: the typical 2rd era Tamrielic person) just don't desecrate the dead. So if there's a person with a zombie in town, it will cause outrage. People will hardly ask in which way it was summoned or whether it's only illusion magic, they will be repulsed and react accordingly. And the guards will want to prevent such situations. Even if necromancy itself may not be forbidden in one territory, disturbing the peace within cities certainly is.

While i agree with you its still weird. People who duel in a city should get a bounty aswell or when using aoe's. I mean if someone casts a flame ability he could tburn down the whole city. But we draw the line at necromancy. Even better tho. There are people sitting next by in the mage guild which deal with soul gems which is even more evil than necromancy. With necromancy you pull a soul back for a time but soul gems trap it. Its funny that enslaving animals and creatures is finde as long as you dont trap humanoids.

Syldras · June 1

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

While i agree with you its still weird. People who duel in a city should get a bounty aswell or when using aoe's. I mean if someone casts a flame ability he could tburn down the whole city. But we draw the line at necromancy.

You're right; strictly seen, it makes no sense. Just as having the weirdest mounts and polymorphs in town. Lore- and immersion-wise, those would have to be forbidden in town, too. But I really don't want to imagine the complaints ZOS would get then...

Lazarus_Rising wrote: »

Even better tho. There are people sitting next by in the mage guild which deal with soul gems which is even more evil than necromancy. With necromancy you pull a soul back for a time but soul gems trap it. Its funny that enslaving animals and creatures is finde as long as you dont trap humanoids.

At most times, people have made a distinction between humans and other animals/creatures, though. Animals are eaten all the time, while eating humans would, well... unless you're a Bosmer or a Namira worshipper.

Malyore · June 1

I made a similar thread a couple weeks ago about the comparison between summoning daedra and necromancy. Something else I've thought of between then and now is that dueling is okay in cities. Like, do the guards just know that whoever dies is actually immortal? Seems weird how two strangers fighting to the death by the food stand doesn't draw attention either.

Syldras · June 1

Malyore wrote: »

I made a similar thread a couple weeks ago about the comparison between summoning daedra and necromancy. Something else I've thought of between then and now is that dueling is okay in cities. Like, do the guards just know that whoever dies is actually immortal? Seems weird how two strangers fighting to the death by the food stand doesn't draw attention either.

Historically seen, duels (also to death), were not forbidden in many cultures, because the participants agreed on fighting eachother and there were rules for the fight. Also, it was considered the right thing to do (especially for noblemen) in case of arguments or someone insulting one's honor. In Europe, it wasn't until end of the 18th century that, due to the philosophical movement of Enlightenment, the view about violence and the worth on a human life changed, so duels were becoming unfashionable.

The only restriction would be, that it would of course not be allowed in a surrounding where other, non-participating people would likely be injured or even killed.