New PvP balance idea

Luke_Flamesword

Actual meta encourages people to put attribute points into health, not stamina/magicka even if they want to build dd build, not typical tank. So what you think about simple solution - bonuses and penalties for using every point in specific attribute? For every point of health you will be have damage reduced per X% in PvP (only PvP, it can't touch PvE), for every point of stamina/magicka you will have damage increased.

I know that people can still take all magicka/stamina and then put all defense sets instead one defense and one damage. But we can go further with giving some more penalties for having too much armor/health in general. Idea is simple - if you want be really tanky tank - you can, but your damage will be pitty not matter what you will use.

We can go even further - some damage reduction while you are healed. Not too big of course and only when you received too much health per second, so too much healing will be crippling people.

There must be this choice - damage or survability. More damage = less survability. More survability = less damage.

Luke_Flamesword

We can also just put "X% damage reduction to player enemies" in EVERY defense set in game - there are really many possibilites to balance PvP without hurting PvE.

Joy_Division

Measures such as this are just addressing the symptoms, not the disease (i.e., why people put attributes into health).

Under a system such as this, of course I wouldn't put anything into health, but though CP, food, gear, Mundas, etc., I'd basically have the same health and capabilities. If I knew about it. Meanwhile the poor soul such as myself who does not keep track of ESO's quirky PvP rules (I just learned last night we cant open our mail while moving), would be running around at a huge damage reduction and have no idea other players hit much harder than I did.

ZOS long ago crossed the power creep threshold that accounts for the sort of gameplay we have.

xylena_lazarow

Joy_Division wrote: »

Measures such as this are just addressing the symptoms, not the disease (i.e., why people put attributes into health).

While I have no idea how OP's proposed solution is supposed to work, they're absolutely right that hp inflation is an issue. There's absolutely no reason to run anything other than 64 hp on the majority of PvP builds. I've been running a 37k hp Sorc DD and a 40k hp Warden DD recently, both are basically glass cannons other than the 64 hp (not unusual for smallscale DD builds), and will win open world 1v1s not just stalemate. I don't know how to feel about this. Usually guilt lol.

Joy_Division

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Measures such as this are just addressing the symptoms, not the disease (i.e., why people put attributes into health).

While I have no idea how OP's proposed solution is supposed to work, they're absolutely right that hp inflation is an issue. There's absolutely no reason to run anything other than 64 hp on the majority of PvP builds. I've been running a 37k hp Sorc DD and a 40k hp Warden DD recently, both are basically glass cannons other than the 64 hp (not unusual for smallscale DD builds), and will win open world 1v1s not just stalemate. I don't know how to feel about this. Usually guilt lol.

You shouldn't feel anything. You didn;t do anything "wrong."

As much as I can't stand fighting a 40K health DD warden (and they have existed for basically ever), I run around with 40K health on my Warden because even with that amount, I still get sometimes get instantly killed if I forget to hold block when an organized group uses rush of agony or if I am on Alessia bridge and the walking VD procs that are 23K health AD pugs are anywhere near me. Sometimes. Because I have 40K health. So of course people are going to run around with 64 health. Making a rule saying you can't or you only can but you'll do no damage without addressing why we have 40K health means not logging in because I was already instadying WITH 40K health.

I don;t nearly pay attention to ZOS's changes (I know nothing of Arcanists except they have a really annoying CC that is even harder than fear to break and their green bubble seems to be a rip off of my old favorite templar skill), so I'm not sure, but it seems like the only class where stacking 64 points into a something other than health is a Sorcerer (mine has 28K health). Give me a beneficial reason to actually put points into something other than health and I'll do it. Am I seriously supposed to roll out in Cyrdoiil putting 64 points of magicka into my Templar? Hard pass.

xylena_lazarow

Joy_Division wrote: »

even with that amount, I still get sometimes get instantly killed

It's the nonstop range spam, u40 to u41 was a horrible step backwards in that regard. It's not just MagSorcs, but also all the proc sets that synergize perfectly with 41m range PvP attacks. Happily ran 64 stam in u40 on my Arc (because their offensive PvP kit sucks and I needed the extra 10% on my tentacle and dbos) but 30k hp doesn't feel as good when you're constantly being chunked for 20k by enemies you literally cannot see and literally cannot engage.

buzzclops

Remove ALL health scaling heals (like they said they would do a couple years ago when werewolves healing was insane and other spells) they ended up adding more xD. Or have a battle spirit health cap at 30 ish k hp. Problem solved. I’d go with the second one personally so pve is left untouched

Jsmalls

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't attribute points the worst place to get your health from?

Item Set lines, armor enchants, mundus stones, jewelry trait, and food all have a higher health coefficients than magicka or stamina. Where as the attribute points all have equal values.

@xylena_lazarow

I may be a Sorc using Healy shield but at least I run 26-27k health in Cryodiil and if I'm not active with my defenses I get 1 shot. That at least takes SOME effort and skill.

Health scaling abilities need to be removed. I don't know why they pushed so hard for these for the new classes.

Regarding OPs idea, it may effect a handful of players, but ultimately the 40k health Zergling doesn't care if you nerf their damage. High Health and mitigation combined with low damage is okay when you're light attacking people in 30v4s.

Also I think this is secretly a buff Sorc thread, cuz those are the ones who would benefit the most from this.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't attribute points the worst place to get your health from?

MagSorc and a handful of glass cannon builds are the exceptions, for everyone else you're getting a huge 25% more hp for a manageable 10% damage loss, often less because max pool doesn't even affect your damage procs. There's no obligated threshhold so plenty of players still put some points into mag or stam for easier sustain.

Yes the damage shield playstyle takes skill. I needed time to learn it. We see plenty of casual Sorc players unable to unlock the absurd power of a minmaxed Ward on top of a practiced playstyle. But everything here takes skill whether players want to admit it or not, and any of it can end up broken if the devs make a number too big.

CameraBeardThePirate

Jsmalls wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't attribute points the worst place to get your health from?

Item Set lines, armor enchants, mundus stones, jewelry trait, and food all have a higher health coefficients than magicka or stamina. Where as the attribute points all have equal values.

@xylena_lazarow

I may be a Sorc using Healy shield but at least I run 26-27k health in Cryodiil and if I'm not active with my defenses I get 1 shot. That at least takes SOME effort and skill.

Health scaling abilities need to be removed. I don't know why they pushed so hard for these for the new classes.

Regarding OPs idea, it may effect a handful of players, but ultimately the 40k health Zergling doesn't care if you nerf their damage. High Health and mitigation combined with low damage is okay when you're light attacking people in 30v4s.

Also I think this is secretly a buff Sorc thread, cuz those are the ones who would benefit the most from this.

Incorrect - attribute points into health also have increased value vs attribute points into Mag/Stam.

Health lines are inflated across the entire game, not just set stat lines and traits/enchants.

It's always more efficient to put points into health.

Major_Toughness

Change the value of health attributes and set lines to be the same as magicka and stamina.

It's a first step into increasing the amount of investment needed if players wanted to build high health.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

It's a first step into increasing the amount of investment needed if players wanted to build high health.

Funny that another step would be related to your name. Warden's Minor Toughness is a massive buff to hp pools, and they provide it for themselves and their group for free. Why inflate everyone's hp by 10% for free like that?

The 64 hp meta is another issue, since 64 hp on a PvP build is gonna be around a 25% buff, absolutely huge. Meanwhile 64 stam is about 10% damage and a bigger gas tank, good but too balanced, it pales in comparison.

Major_Toughness

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

It's a first step into increasing the amount of investment needed if players wanted to build high health.

Funny that another step would be related to your name. Warden's Minor Toughness is a massive buff to hp pools, and they provide it for themselves and their group for free. Why inflate everyone's hp by 10% for free like that?

The 64 hp meta is another issue, since 64 hp on a PvP build is gonna be around a 25% buff, absolutely huge. Meanwhile 64 stam is about 10% damage and a bigger gas tank, good but too balanced, it pales in comparison.

The problem around Minor Toughness is that like the base classes, hybridisation means that one or more of them are no longer in group comps in PvE or PvP as the class provided buff is irrelevant.

Such as Templar Minor Sorcery. Templar provides far less than DK overall so you see DKs in PvE and PvP groups but no Templars - unless they really want to play Templar.

I like that every class provides something for "free" as a group buff as it means groups have some class diversity.

Now a nerf to Minor Toughness to say 8%, inline with Mending and Vitality would be another small step in the right direction.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I like that every class provides something for "free" as a group buff as it means groups have some class diversity. Now a nerf to Minor Toughness to say 8%, inline with Mending and Vitality would be another small step in the right direction.

Yeah I'm on board with that, 10% is just seems like way too much for the hp stat in particular. Minor Vitality was just lowered to 6%, Minor Berserk was lowered to 5% at some point, they have options.

kurbbie_s

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Actual meta encourages people to put attribute points into health, not stamina/magicka even if they want to build dd build, not typical tank. So what you think about simple solution - bonuses and penalties for using every point in specific attribute? For every point of health you will be have damage reduced per X% in PvP (only PvP, it can't touch PvE), for every point of stamina/magicka you will have damage increased.

I know that people can still take all magicka/stamina and then put all defense sets instead one defense and one damage. But we can go further with giving some more penalties for having too much armor/health in general. Idea is simple - if you want be really tanky tank - you can, but your damage will be pitty not matter what you will use.

We can go even further - some damage reduction while you are healed. Not too big of course and only when you received too much health per second, so too much healing will be crippling people.

There must be this choice - damage or survability. More damage = less survability. More survability = less damage.

Diminishing returns, soft caps, and hard caps is what we need reimplemented.
Diminishing returns on health, stamina, magicka, and recovery
Softcap/hardcap on defense
No stacking the same HoT, to stack a HoT it has to be a different skill or proc. IE not having 2 vigor procs but you can have vigor and rapid regen.

Diminishing returns on consecutive heals from another player over a set time. Such as a ramping up the diminishing return if the target is healed from more than 1 player in 2-3 seconds IE Player heals himself for 10k but the next person who heals him within 3 seconds that isnt himself gets a penalty to the amount healed stacking as more heals come in. This would stop ball groups from being immortals. That and old VD.

0 regen from stam or magick on block casting in PVP

Damage, Health, sustain, defense and healing all across the board are way too high. You should be punished for having more HP stat points over your main stat.

Example
You have 30 in HP
You have 29 in stam youre a stam build
Or you have 29 mag, doesnt matter whichever and if youre a hybrid, it will just use the combined points from both stam/mag

But for every point your hp is higher than your main stat, you lose 1% damage and gain 0.3% reduction or something tuned to turn you toward a tank over a DD
So you could lose effectively 64% damage and gain 19.2 reduction just based on my thoughts.

Maybe even tune it better where its only 0.5% reduction per point bringing you to 31-32% damage output reduction

This could be implemented via battle spirit to not affect PvE

divnyi

Simpler solution:

Battle spirit should cut damage even more (prevent burst) and healing twice that number (to prevent 100% outhealing damage in anything else but 3v1, so damage dealt actually matters).

huskandhunger

Better solution: Sorcs and Nightblades have been underperforming for a while now in comparison to the other classes and need more buffs so they can hold their own.

SaffronCitrusflower

huskandhunger wrote: »

Better solution: Sorcs and Nightblades have been underperforming for a while now in comparison to the other classes and need more buffs so they can hold their own.

LOL

That certainly explains why more than half of everyone in Cyrodiil is running NB and sorc.

Durham

Not only that but I would say 80% of people in Cyrodil are running range builds over melee.

Melee is regulated to 7 meters however Range has no reduction for being within 7 meters. The damage from Range is just as good as a melee build with no restriction of 7 meters which is huge! Currently, if you are melee you fight in towers and keep and use LOS. The best melee class is a Night Blade hands down. They have the best of both worlds range and melee this is another reason why they are the dominant class in PVP.

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

Not only that but I would say 80% of people in Cyrodil are running range builds over melee.

Yeah it's out of control, ESO wasn't meant to be a shooter. Plus now they're designing ranged attacks to be instant and reliable, enabling burst procs from max range, while melee gets stuck with yet more janky cast times (2h Smash is a disgrace). The only things still carrying melee are a few ults and executes, but few players are gonna take the risk.

Afterip

Melee skills have ~30% more damage in tooltip than ranged.
And staffs weapon damage - 1335, but 2h - 1571.
In my opinion, you are sick if you claim that the range is stronger than a melee.

xylena_lazarow

Afterip wrote: »

In my opinion, you are sick if you claim that the range is stronger than a melee.

Do we need to play the gun vs knife game again?

Afterip

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Do we need to play the gun vs knife game again?

No, its looks like the pistolet vs shotgun game.

xylena_lazarow

Afterip wrote: »

No, its looks like the pistolet vs shotgun game.

Then that's on you for carrying a pistolet when every proper ranged spec has a magical assault rifle.

Afterip

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

...

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

IF we have 5k max power and 20k max stat, then:

Dizzying Swing 4 = 0.118795 MaxStat + 1.24735 MaxPower= 8 612, 65

Crushing Shock 4 = (0.03099 MaxStat + 0.325395 MaxPower)x3= 6 740, 325

As you see dizzing ~27,7% stronger than crushing.

xylena_lazarow

Afterip wrote: »

Dizzying Swing

You can't be serious.

Afterip

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

Dizzying Swing

You can't be serious.

Man, i gave you proff that melee skills hits harder than range, if you dont beleve just chek tooltips in the game.

xylena_lazarow

Afterip wrote: »

Man, i gave you proff that melee skills hits harder than range, if you dont beleve just chek tooltips in the game.

Have you ever actually tried to use Dizzying Swing in PvP? Please do.

TechMaybeHic

Dizzy swing is great when speed and blink are used in mass. I mean, just give it a try and gap close a streaking sorc and try to dizzy swing them. Let me know how that goes.

Meanwhile, lets see the full picture of that crushing shock in the 2 GCD time of a gap closer and a dizzy and count the status effect damage that it also does

Afterip

IF melee skills so weak, why most of strong pvp players running with 2h/duals front bar and frost staff back bar?

TechMaybeHic

So hyperbole to change the subject from the point of Dizzy being outclassed when looking beyond just the direct numbers in a single GCD? Got it