Another year with vampire (undeath) ?

olsborg · May 20

With probably the majority of players in cyrodiil being vampires solely because of Undeath passive, can we not spend another year with this being the meta? Its been meta for what feels like forever, nerf it already, it deserves it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 20

Well canonically Vampires are stronger then mere mortals.

Desiato · May 20

If undeath is the underlying problem, why were players easier to kill years ago when undeath scaled to 50% 33%?

I think the problem is nuanced.

For example, stage 3 vampirism comes with significant drawbacks, but they're mitigated, in part, with how much easier it is to sustain and reset fights than it used to be.

I think the reason it's so popular and why max hit points are so high is because high burst has become so easy with power creep.

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

PVP balance has never been ideal, but it's become worse every year with casual PVE focused combat updates that don't take into account quality PVP gameplay, including changes to the CP system.

xylena_lazarow · May 20

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

IncultaWolf · May 20

Undeath needs to be nerfed for the health of the game. Most players don't even want to be a vampire, they just want to use this overpowered passive to min-max their pvp build, because you can't be competitive on 99% of builds without it, which is just poor balance. Play vampire stage 3 in pvp or you lose. Sounds great right?

Theist_VII · May 20

https://youtu.be/C0dAmVjSnyY?si=XPFSvu_Y8ANvihjz

I’m quite sure that Undeath was one of the percent mitigations altered from Additive to Multiplicative, meaning it should be significantly less useful now.

Desiato · May 20

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

Solariken · May 20

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

Desiato · May 21

Solariken wrote: »

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

I'm not saying they wouldn't benefit from it, but they certainly don't need it and don't rely on it the same way a 30k hp player would to survive burst combos.

Even with 35k hp, I wonder if stage 3 is worth the 8% ability cost penalty with some builds.

But the point is that if you take undeath away, the ultimate result -- boring fights in cyrodiil -- will be the same because players will adapt by switching classes, running with more hp or replacing an offensive set with a defensive set. Players build the way they do to survive burst combos and will continue to do so. So I don't think it would have the results people hope for.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Desiato wrote: »

running with more hp or replacing an offensive set with a defensive set

Again: this is exactly the desired outcome, players building to be tanky, not getting it for free from RP passives.

Desiato · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

running with more hp or replacing an offensive set with a defensive set

Again: this is exactly the desired outcome, players building to be tanky, not getting it for free from RP passives.

My desired outcome is gameplay changes that bring PVP combat closer to what it was 5-8 years ago when the TTK was lower, there were fewer stalemates and fewer players felt it necessary to run so tanky -- and when undeath was stronger!

It's not that I'm defending undeath, but from my pov we're asking for the wrong thing. Undeath stands out, but it's not actually the problem itself and I don't think changing it will be as impactful as people think.

Urzigurumash · May 21

Buffing Impen might help to make up for the loss of Undeath in surviving burst from The Good Players (sorcs and nbs)

Urzigurumash · May 21

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

running with more hp or replacing an offensive set with a defensive set

Again: this is exactly the desired outcome, players building to be tanky, not getting it for free from RP passives.

My desired outcome is gameplay changes that bring PVP combat closer to what it was 5-8 years ago when the TTK was lower, there were fewer stalemates and fewer players felt it necessary to run so tanky -- and when undeath was stronger!

It's not that I'm defending undeath, but from my pov we're asking for the wrong thing. Undeath stands out, but it's not actually the problem itself and I don't think changing it will be as impactful as people think.

Undeath wasnt stronger.. above the old threshold anyhow. This and probably most other pertinent mechanical concepts are discussed in the thread linked below. Simply restoring the Threshold Activation rather than scaling from 99% HP is a sound and simple solution discussed in this thread.

I think my own comments in this thread match what Xylena is saying here regarding deliberate investments in tankiness. Allow me to quote myself:

"That old contrast with HP Regen is similar to really anything else that keeps you closer to Max HP - armor, blocking, healing, other percentile mitigations. There are still diminishing returns yes but all of those things were less useful when Undeath didn't kick in until Low Health, because they're investments in means specifically to not be at Low Health. I.e., you got absolutely nothing out of it most of the time, rather than a little all of the time as now."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621381/pvp-balance-in-u37-in-depth-balance-suggestions

Desiato · May 21

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Undeath wasnt stronger.. above the old threshold anyhow. This and probably most other pertinent mechanical concepts are discussed in the thread linked below. Simply restoring the Threshold Activation rather than scaling from 99% HP is a sound and simple solution discussed in this thread.

The thread you link talks about a lot of issues, many of which are the main culprits IMO. The single biggest problem is the current iteration of the CP system. It's not a surprise that ZOS has disabled it in Battlegrounds, a game mode they value more than Cyrodiil. I can't imagine why they haven't disabled it in all PVP.

I agree undeath would be better if it scaled from 50% and to be honest I didn't realize that it didn't. I'm still catching up on all of the changes that occurred during my years away from the game.

Again, as I've said this entire thread, I'm not defending undeath. I wouldn't care if it was removed from the game.

But by having a singular focus on it, it takes our attention off the big picture. Undeath could be removed from the game and Cyrodilic PVP would still suck and have all the same major issues: high TTK, stalemates, troll tanks, healbots, etc...

If the majority of undeath players adapted by building more tanky (I'm not saying absolute tank builds) and therefore did less damage, we would be right back to exactly the same position as we are with undeath in the game.

Instead of asking ZOS to remove this one thing, we should describe to them the kind of PVP we want.

silky_soft · May 21

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Buffing Impen might help to make up for the loss of Undeath in surviving burst from The Good Players (sorcs and nbs)

No buffs needed in return. Just nerf resistance and then look at shield stacking. How many mf you see with 20% hp and shields keep popping up. No matter how many execute skills on them.

Also bring back the real defile, it should be double or triple its current level. Same with cost poisons.

Urzigurumash · May 21

silky_soft wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Buffing Impen might help to make up for the loss of Undeath in surviving burst from The Good Players (sorcs and nbs)

No buffs needed in return. Just nerf resistance and then look at shield stacking. How many mf you see with 20% hp and shields keep popping up. No matter how many execute skills on them.

Also bring back the real defile, it should be double or triple its current level. Same with cost poisons.

Nerf which resistance? Again we want tankiness to be an option but you should have to work/build for it.

Shields were super weak circa 2020 thru 2023 so I get why they're a bit too strong now.

A buff to Impen is a subtle nerf to sustain and mobility by decreasing the relative efficiency of well-fitted. Right?

Desiato · May 21

I think it's way past the point of minor adjustments. Most changes since 2016 have made PVP worse. I think they really need to go back to the drawing board with PVP Gameplay. They should use 2016 as a basis and go from there.

As many have said over the years, PVP needs to be balanced separately from PVE. The two game modes are too disparate. Look how badly they've broken Sorc and NB to achieve their PVE goals.

The entire concept of raising the floor and lowering the ceiling is the antithesis of quality PVP.

Vulkunne · May 21

Solariken wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

Exactly ^

Undeath and mitigation in general is poorly understood in this game. The real problem isn't undeath or vamps at all, its the lack of a viable alternative. Undeath is not going to do anything for you if you don't build for it and so many players out there are running these insanely high damage builds and you will die anyways, even *with* undeath being a factor.

It doesn't change a thing. Undeath looks stronger on paper than it actually is. I say for all the damage being dealt out there we need Undeath now more than ever before... and not just Undeath but anything to help increase survivability.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Desiato wrote: »

Instead of asking ZOS to remove this one thing, we should describe to them the kind of PVP we want.

Maybe try to look at it this way. In a "tank meta" I can wear 3 damage sets and tune for near full damage like I should be a glass cannon, yet I'm somehow still tanky healy myself, and I'm ending up in stalemates against other DDs in 3 damage sets. You say buffing damage would force players to wear tank sets to survive. YES it would and that is the PvP I want.

Urzigurumash · May 21

Vulkunne wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

Exactly ^

Undeath and mitigation in general is poorly understood in this game. The real problem isn't undeath or vamps at all, its the lack of a viable alternative. Undeath is not going to do anything for you if you don't build for it and so many players out there are running these insanely high damage builds and you will die anyways, even *with* undeath being a factor.

It doesn't change a thing. Undeath looks stronger on paper than it actually is. I say for all the damage being dealt out there we need Undeath now more than ever before... and not just Undeath but anything to help increase survivability.

This might be true in this Good Players' Class Meta, but during the 2 year DK Domination this was absolutely wrong, you could notice the moment you dropped off to Stage 2.

As for alternatives it is and was HP Regen, everybody knows that's the base problem.

Urzigurumash · May 21

Although we shouldn't even call a Sorc and NB era a "meta" since it's a return to the natural state of ESO, as it should be, exactly how would it make sense that The Good Players aren't the best?

olsborg · May 22

Its worth a mention that undeath passive coupled with big dmg shields is a great, great combo. Too great imo.

barney2525 · May 22

olsborg wrote: »

With probably the majority of players in cyrodiil being vampires solely because of Undeath passive, can we not spend another year with this being the meta? Its been meta for what feels like forever, nerf it already, it deserves it.

I dunno what that passive is. I only keep vampire for the stealth speed.

Aurielle · May 22

I don’t have vamp on any of my characters because I hate what it does to their appearance, and TBH, I don’t die any more than any of the other folks in my guild who are vamps. In fact, I’m often surviving longer than many of them. Since I don’t have the ability cost penalty to contend with, I can spam my “oh ****” skills for longer.

I don’t think Undeath is nearly as crucial as people insist it is, unless you’re doing 1vX stuff.

barney2525 · May 22

Aurielle wrote: »

I don’t have vamp on any of my characters because I hate what it does to their appearance, and TBH, I don’t die any more than any of the other folks in my guild who are vamps. In fact, I’m often surviving longer than many of them. Since I don’t have the ability cost penalty to contend with, I can spam my “oh ****” skills for longer.

I don’t think Undeath is nearly as crucial as people insist it is, unless you’re doing 1vX stuff.

completely agree on the ugly factor. there are a couple of skins that have come out that do make the character look reasonable. One is a red tattoo that really works well. Otherwise I have to run my vamps with a mask. Since I usually am only running vamp to get to level 10 for the white dye, I end up doing a lot of dolmens during double xp events and then get rid of the vampirism.

But the white dye is definitely worth the effort.

StShoot · May 22

Desiato wrote: »

If undeath is the underlying problem, why were players easier to kill years ago when undeath scaled to 50% 33%?

I think the problem is nuanced.

For example, stage 3 vampirism comes with significant drawbacks, but they're mitigated, in part, with how much easier it is to sustain and reset fights than it used to be.

I think the reason it's so popular and why max hit points are so high is because high burst has become so easy with power creep.

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

PVP balance has never been ideal, but it's become worse every year with casual PVE focused combat updates that don't take into account quality PVP gameplay, including changes to the CP system.

Didnt the undeath passive work diffrent back than? If i remember correctly there was a time where it was not scaling with your missing HP but instead trigger at a fixed % point of your hp.

GuuMoonRyoung · May 22

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well canonically Vampires are stronger then mere mortals.

Canonically, vampires can not stay out in daytime and burn to death within a few seconds. But here, vampires run around in day and can ever use all vampiric powers. So bringing up canon for this game makes no sense.

StihlReign · May 22

First fix the the tooltips so they're accurate. Zos' convoluted mitigation math - brought to light by Sparkrip's post, spreadsheet, videos, Q&A and testing have revealed we're all being done a disservice.

We've been sold a product without a proper disclaimer - Nothing in the armor tooltips can be relied upon, all numbers are for estimation purposes only, your mitigation results will vary, there are hidden penalties you are not aware of.

Our math is bad and so is your ping, have fun testing, good luck.

Malyore · May 23

olsborg wrote: »

With probably the majority of players in cyrodiil being vampires solely because of Undeath passive, can we not spend another year with this being the meta? Its been meta for what feels like forever, nerf it already, it deserves it.

If it's needed nerfed for pvp, just nerf it in pvp only please. Make battle spirit affect it.

Malyore · May 23

Solariken wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

Wait it's based on health you currently have, not health missing? I thought the closer you were to dying, the less damage you took.

Or do you mean having a larger health pool gives more room to benefit from the passive, because even at a low percent of health you still have a decent amount of HP?

Urzigurumash · May 23

Malyore wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think if undeath was nerfed, we'd just see tankier builds because it is a symptom of significant underlying balance issues and not the problem itself.

Yes that's the goal, for players to need to build to be tanky, not just jam 64 hp on a DD or healer. Tanks in tank sets are fine, it's the viable 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers that are sandbagging fights. Delete Undeath.

The 45k hp DDs and 55k hp healers don't need undeath, and neither do sorcs, so we'll just see more of those things if undeath is nerfed.

I'm not opposed to nerfing undeath, I just think its widespread use is the symptom of greater issues and it's a mistake to focus on it.

This is a weird take. Undeath's overall power is commensurate with how much HP you have. In other words, more HP = more benefit from Undeath.

It's pretty safe to assume every high HP player in Cyro is taking full advantage of Undeath.

Wait it's based on health you currently have, not health missing? I thought the closer you were to dying, the less damage you took.

Or do you mean having a larger health pool gives more room to benefit from the passive, because even at a low percent of health you still have a decent amount of HP?

The latter