Fight mechanics and ranged vs melee

AnduinTryggva

Since a couple of years I am running vet content and some of the solo arenas on vet (Vateshran etc) and the archive.

As far as I can see quite some many mechanics are forcing players to take their distance to the target and on occasion to kite the target/boss. One quite recent example is the first major boss (not the spider, but that wamasu lady) in Sanity's Edge where the boss throws fire bomb which land near her. I know that this boss is most about killing the adds but still on phases you want to damage the boss directly but you simply cannot approach the boss due to the many fire aoe around her. If you are a pure melee you are just a bystander in this phase.
Another example is that fire marauder that can spawn randomly in arc 2 or later arcs (that guy with the fire whirlwinds and the four swords): If you get to close you risk getting the one hit attack so most recommend to kite this boss. Again as melee you are in a bad situation.

To be honest I don't understand why fights are constructed in a way that clearly favors one specific playstyle over the other. Yes, you can play every way possible as advertised by ZOS. But you cannot play everything with everyway, this is what they forget to add here. And I think a few players are lested that way because some simply prefer playing melee such as me.

VictorDragonslayer

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

throws fire bomb which land near her

It means that MT doesn't know how to tank Yaseyla. These bombs have timer, MT teleports away to make bombs fall far away from group.
I recommend you to consult with strong players and watch their vods, you'll learn that most fights in the game can be done (and are being done) by melee DDs.

dmnqwk

This has been happening for 10, 15, 20... 25+ years.

It's not new, it's not exclusive to ESO - the only real difference in ESO is that:

a) each class does have a choice, albeit at a dps loss, to use any weapon and thus be any style.
b) since everyone goes medium armour now there is zero extra protection for melee players over ranged. (I lie.. there is a single benefit and that's cleave in two handed.)

silky_soft

Yea it sucks, I've always melee. This game directors hate melee with a passion for 10 yr. Just look at battlespirit free extra range buff for no reason. Weaving range heat seeking missiles is much easier then weave melee. Just somthing you get used to.

Dragonnord

That's why you do more damage being melee (ie: daggers, two handed), as you take more risks in exchange for more dps.

Or, you can use bow or staff for those situations.
 

Ezhh

Dragonnord wrote: »

That's why you do more damage being melee (ie: daggers, two handed), as you take more risks in exchange for more dps.

Or, you can use bow or staff for those situations.
 

Then they nerfed LAs and brought out Velothi. In trials people slot DW for the passives and sometimes also the protection cloak gives. If bow or staff ended up with better passives to boost arcanist beam (itself a ranged cleave that does full damage on every target) then the majority of trial DDs would run those instead (because the majority of trial DDs are arcanists which Velothi works very well for, so your LAs, the only melee thing, do basically no damage anyway).

The melee being stronger than ranged argument only really applies with any amount of meaning when you play a class like DK or Plar that has a melee spammable. And you don't see many parse DDs in organised trials that are not Arcanists.

katanagirl1

Ezhh wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

That's why you do more damage being melee (ie: daggers, two handed), as you take more risks in exchange for more dps.

Or, you can use bow or staff for those situations.
 

Then they nerfed LAs and brought out Velothi. In trials people slot DW for the passives and sometimes also the protection cloak gives. If bow or staff ended up with better passives to boost arcanist beam (itself a ranged cleave that does full damage on every target) then the majority of trial DDs would run those instead (because the majority of trial DDs are arcanists which Velothi works very well for, so your LAs, the only melee thing, do basically no damage anyway).

The melee being stronger than ranged argument only really applies with any amount of meaning when you play a class like DK or Plar that has a melee spammable. And you don't see many parse DDs in organised trials that are not Arcanists.

Yes, arcanists have had a big impact.

The healers in my group stand so close to the bosses and complain if I get out of melee range because I am then behind them, so I’m right up the boss’s ass anyway.

RicAlmighty

[Removed]

notyuu

RicAlmighty wrote: »

I agree with this completely and have just come to accept it as Zos shows no intention of ever changing it. It's not so bad in Trials because you have a lot of others to help you either with heals or to take over damage if you need to dodge. But when you are solo, some bosses in things like Infinite Archive are just simply impossible for a melee based character to defeat. There is a complete floor of AOE damage and you spend all your time dodging and moving that it's simply not feasible to get any damage done to the boss at all. I have a melee character with 28k health and 2.8k health recovery and I can barely stay alive in some of these. It really is demoralizing sometimes when I know I could load up a ranged character and get past this boss.

The balance in this game is overly tilted to one offensive type in some encounters and it shouldn't be.

While I get where you're coming from with the AoE Nonsense making melee be brtually hard, I do have to ask what boss(es?) you're finding impossible, as I was able to 100% IA using a 22K hp melee glasscannon build

AnduinTryggva

Dragonnord wrote: »

That's why you do more damage being melee (ie: daggers, two handed), as you take more risks in exchange for more dps.

Or, you can use bow or staff for those situations.
 

I ran the Archive yesterday with an arcanist who was maybe one third of my cp. He cut through the enemies like a hot knife through butter. I made about 25% of the damage, him 75%. Of course, while my build is a bit(!) tankier (stam dk with dagger/bow) him was more a glass canon. As soon as things got a bit serious he struggled with survival and, so he said, with sustain. The latter is unsurprising: He used daggers on his front bar (dunno if he played backbar at all) but all he did was spamming two or three times tentacles and then melted them away with his laser beam. He did use ZERO weapon attacks as far as I have seen. Of course his sustain was accordingly. That guy carried the weapons only for the passives. It is simply no longer true that melee players make more damage. Even if I used my build for trials (so maxing dps) I may at best be at par with that guy - me with triple cp...

[To be honest: I think the design idea of the arcanist is a turning or even breaking point for the entire fight system of ESO. Up to now, people were somehow incited to use weapons actively and thus learned how to sustain. Newer players "growing up" with arcanist playstyle will no longer learn this. (I guess that is one reason why sustain at the moment in general is less a factor in order to allow this new playstyle, me chiming into what people discuss in terms of build within my raid guild here.) In fact weapons for them are entirely futile - apart from the passives. This is breaking completely with how fights were initially designed.]

Dragonnord

Ezhh wrote: »

I ran the Archive yesterday with an arcanist who was maybe one third of my cp. He cut through the enemies like a hot knife through butter. I made about 25% of the damage, him 75%. Of course, while my build is a bit(!) tankier (stam dk with dagger/bow) him was more a glass canon. As soon as things got a bit serious he struggled with survival and, so he said, with sustain. The latter is unsurprising: He used daggers on his front bar (dunno if he played backbar at all) but all he did was spamming two or three times tentacles and then melted them away with his laser beam. He did use ZERO weapon attacks as far as I have seen. Of course his sustain was accordingly. That guy carried the weapons only for the passives. It is simply no longer true that melee players make more damage. Even if I used my build for trials (so maxing dps) I may at best be at par with that guy - me with triple cp...

You are talking about Arcanist. Tell that Arcanist to do the same with any of the other six classes.
 

AnduinTryggva

Sure I know that arca is op as of now. My point is that the design of this class may be how ZOS wants to develop future classes. Arca is a ranged class irrespective of what weapon they carry. This is emphasizing my point that much of how fights work in ZOS it favors ranged players. And add to this that the most recent class addition is per design ranged.

To add as comment to your remark that melee have higher weapon damage:
Observe how many fights work and specifically how fights of recent DLC work: Targets are more and more spread. This is not much of a problem for a ranged player, be it an arcanist or another class with ranged setup: They simply turn on the spot and continue firing. As a melee player you first have to displace yourself to that target before you can continue to use your weapons. So you might have had a dps advantage because of your melee weapon damage. But you lose that or at least a portion of it because you lose time moving from one spot to another.

As it is now it seems that ZOS is clearly favoring ranged, and this more and more with how newer fights are designed. With the addition of the arcanist and the nerf of weapon attacks I would not be surprised that in a few years we will have a fight system that is only skill-based and weapons are just decoration.

Ezhh

Dragonnord wrote: »

You are talking about Arcanist. Tell that Arcanist that do the same with any of the other same classes.
 

It's not just the Arcanist. It's Velothi as well. So long as you have these two things as meta you simply can't say melee is stronger than range. Yes, a melee DK will out dps a ranged DK and so on, but the Arc will laugh at them both. Rosters for trial groups show this very clearly. Even rosters for trials like KA and Sunspire that are very much about standing in melee range of the boss are filled with Arcanists.


But with all this said, I rarely have trouble staying in melee range in a good group that knows how to handle mechanics.

Desiato

This is my pov as a returning player. I felt I had a good understanding of the game when I stopped playing in 2019, but I'm definitely not an expert about the current metas and I'm still catching up on all the changes over the years.

Playing melee has always been more difficult in all aspects, but there used to be greater upsides, at least after 1.6 was introduced. I feel the light and heavy attacks really hurt dw, especially in pvp.

Even in pve content the dw heavy nerf is relevant because when I had to pull back to avoid an AE, I would fully charge a heavy attack when re-engaging the target. It's so counter-intuitive that dw heavy attacks are so weak. How is that acceptable to a game designer?

I admit I don't know the class well, but Arcanist seems like the ultimate carry class. It's really shocking to see from a 2019 pov. I've been getting into trials more and it's amazing how common the class is.

In the past, staff builds used to have more disadvantages. They were really constrained by limited stamina so they had to be very careful about dodging, blocking and sprinting. They were also more squishy.

It seems to me a lot of this comes down to homogenization. Different approaches to the game used to come with strengths and weaknesses. Now players can have the best of all worlds in the same build with few drawbacks. So there is much less diversity. Why have all these options when they lead to one destination for most players?

I play melee now for the same reason I did from launch to 1.5, even though melee was at an extreme disadvantage then. Because it's more fun for me. What makes ESO combat fun is that it can be so fast. I love avoiding AEs in the heat of the fight. But I know in most cases, I'm putting myself at a significant disadvantage.

EdjeSwift

Desiato wrote: »

I admit I don't know the class well, but Arcanist seems like the ultimate carry class. It's really shocking to see from a 2019 pov. I've been getting into trials more and it's amazing how common the class is.

Arcanist DPS genuinely might be the second least exciting DPS class for me to play and is probably a heavy reason why I'm taking longer breaks from the game. I loved ESO for the combat, it was active, a lot of dodging, positioning, and use of different skills, attacks and styles. When everything can be trivialized into 5, 1, 1, 4, 1, 1, 4, 5, 1, 1, 4, it's just not fun anymore as a DPS.

katanagirl1

I think most arcanists (if not all) now are stamina. Yes the flail and the beam have range but you still have to light attack to get ultimate. I can get by without light attacking in IA because the fights are short but I definitely have to do it in trials.

Malyore

Dont melee attacks have a phantom range of like 6 meters? Is that not enough to hit bosses that you can't step near with aoes?

Dragonnord

Ezhh wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

You are talking about Arcanist. Tell that Arcanist that do the same with any of the other same classes.
 

It's not just the Arcanist. It's Velothi as well. So long as you have these two things as meta you simply can't say melee is stronger than range. Yes, a melee DK will out dps a ranged DK and so on, but the Arc will laugh at them both. Rosters for trial groups show this very clearly. Even rosters for trials like KA and Sunspire that are very much about standing in melee range of the boss are filled with Arcanists.


But with all this said, I rarely have trouble staying in melee range in a good group that knows how to handle mechanics.

Clearly you haven't seen parses. Almost all stamina classes (and melee) outparse Arcanist. And in PTS (U42) Arcanist barely surpasses 130k.

Don't even mention Stamsorc that has parses of 146k.

Players use Arcanist because single damage burst and using Fatecarver going through several enemies at the same time (while the other clases can't do that), some even because of Fatecarver's shield while doing damage.

Remove Fatecarver from Arcanist and no one would be using it.
 

Desiato

Dragonnord wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

You are talking about Arcanist. Tell that Arcanist that do the same with any of the other same classes.
 

It's not just the Arcanist. It's Velothi as well. So long as you have these two things as meta you simply can't say melee is stronger than range. Yes, a melee DK will out dps a ranged DK and so on, but the Arc will laugh at them both. Rosters for trial groups show this very clearly. Even rosters for trials like KA and Sunspire that are very much about standing in melee range of the boss are filled with Arcanists.


But with all this said, I rarely have trouble staying in melee range in a good group that knows how to handle mechanics.

Clearly you haven't seen parses. Almost all stamina classes (and melee) outparse Arcanist. And in PTS (U42) Arcanist barely surpasses 130k.

Don't even mention Stamsorc that has parses of 146k.

Players use Arcanist because single damage burst and using Fatecarver going through several enemies at the same time (while the other clases can't do that), some even because of Fatecarver's shield while doing damage.

Remove Fatecarver from Arcanist and no one would be using it.
 

I understand peak performance can come with melee builds when played in highly organized groups.

It seems far easier to obtain 90% of top performance with ranged builds than it is with melee in actual raid conditions. As a result, melee dps are uncommon in most trial and dungeon groups I've observed.

That's my perspective as a beginner trial player who has observed a lot of mid-tier to upper tier trials, but no perspective on the elite community outside of cpcharles videos and streams. A say this to temper my opinion with some humility by recognizing I am not close to an expert!

Also the OP and my response isn't just about trials, but solo and smaller group play as well.

Sakiri

Idk, I play magsorc and still have to stand in melee or I ain't getting healed.

Dragonnord

Desiato wrote: »

Also the OP and my response isn't just about trials, but solo and smaller group play as well.

Exactly. It's not only about trials, game also has 4-man group content, Infinite Archive, group arenas, solo arenas, etc. and Arcanist is not always used in those other type of content.

The TOP duo group in NA for IA is Sorc+NB, second is Warden+DK, third is Warden+DK, Fourth is Warden+DK.
 
Not everything is about trials, and not everyone uses Arcanist.
 

RicAlmighty

[Removed]

Desiato

Dragonnord wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Also the OP and my response isn't just about trials, but solo and smaller group play as well.

Exactly. It's not only about trials, game also has 4-man group content, Infinite Archive, group arenas, solo arenas, etc. and Arcanist is not always used in those other type of content.

The TOP duo group in NA for IA is Sorc+NB, second is Warden+DK, third is Warden+DK, Fourth is Warden+DK.
 
Not everything is about trials, and not everyone uses Arcanist.
 

I don't disagree with you, but I think the sentiment of the OP is more about the ease at which certain builds can achieve a good level of performance. I have seen this opinion echoed by players of all skill levels in the forums and on reddit, especially in regards to single bar heavy attack builds. No one thinks oakensoul builds are top tier, but that they raise the floor too high. I don't speak for the OP, but I feel that was kind of his sentiment.

I feel as a melee player I'm working 300% more for 15% better results compared to some builds -- numbers pulled out of my donkey of course. And of course a better player would achieve better results than me.

Ezhh

Dragonnord wrote: »

Clearly you haven't seen parses. Almost all stamina classes (and melee) outparse Arcanist. And in PTS (U42) Arcanist barely surpasses 130k. 

I've seen plenty of parses. Have you seen trial rosters? I'm talking from the perspective of someone involved in running a very large trial server and watching first hand how the raid leads only want arcanist parse DDs. I'm not saying it's right or how it should be, but the most desired parse DD by a very large margin is an arcanist.

Dragonnord wrote: »

Don't even mention Stamsorc that has parses of 146k.

I've been a sorc main for years. But a dummy parse doesn't equal actual content. Sorc will always have an advantage on a dummy due to how overload works, yet I don't remember the last time I saw overload used in PvE group content, or for that matter the last time I saw a trial group look for a sorc other than support sorc running MK. Sorc still has solid single target and I wish it would be more readily accepted in trial groups, but...

Dragonnord wrote: »

Players use Arcanist because single damage burst and using Fatecarver going through several enemies at the same time (while the other clases can't do that), some even because of Fatecarver's shield while doing damage.

Remove Fatecarver from Arcanist and no one would be using it.
 

Yes, this is the issue here. Arc has range + cleave + the option for a (even after the nerf) pretty big shield for more safety (all before we go into easy access to penetration and important buffs that enable it to use the best potions). It's easy mode. There is little to no reward or reason to play a more difficult and often more risky melee rotation when you can play this.

Dragonnord

Ezhh wrote: »

Yes, this is the issue here. Arc has range + cleave + the option for a (even after the nerf) pretty big shield for more safety (all before we go into easy access to penetration and important buffs that enable it to use the best potions). It's easy mode. There is little to no reward or reason to play a more difficult and often more risky melee rotation when you can play this.

Yeah, agree on this one. This is the reason.
 

moderatelyfatman

@AnduinTryggva
The Problem isn't ranged builds, it the Arcanist Class:

When comparing non-arcanist classes, I think ranged and melee builds are relatively balanced. Even in non-dlc vet dungeons such as Elden Hollow I (Canonreeve Oraneth) or Darkshade I (Sentinel of Rhugamz) there are expanding ground AOEs that can one-shot a dps unless you can dodge roll out of the way. DW daggers have the highest damage but meant that you were forced to go melee: your dps would be higher when you were in range and lower when you had to do mechs. In contrast, a ranged dps could stay at range and shoot away, do a bit less max damage but more consistently.

On my bowsorc, magsorc and bowden can I can parse about 100k on dummy (about 4-5% behind DW) but a significant portion of their damage depends on ground dots (e.g. Endless Hail, Wall of Elements, Storm Atro, Liquid Lightning etc) that needs to be recast regularly against a moving opponent. In contrast, the Fartcarver not only tracks the target but also cuts through everything which means you are never forced to tab-target or otherwise lose dps on the boss by accidentally hitting the wrong target.

This balance is lost newer content suchs as Shipwright' Regret where the final boss (Captain Numirril) teleports around the battlefield like an idiot bunny on illegal stimulants. This completely messes up the melee classes and also makes life hard on the non-arcanist ranged classes too.

The really sad thing about the arcanist is that it will degrade the average skill level of the playerbase since it allows players to skip certain mechanics. Then ZOS will be in a similar situation as Oakensoul HA builds where if they do introduce a nerf, a significant number of the newer playerbase will quit rather than have to work much harder on a different class to be able to clear the same content as before.

AnduinTryggva

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

@AnduinTryggva
The Problem isn't ranged builds, it the Arcanist Class:

When comparing non-arcanist classes, I think ranged and melee builds are relatively balanced. Even in non-dlc vet dungeons such as Elden Hollow I (Canonreeve Oraneth) or Darkshade I (Sentinel of Rhugamz) there are expanding ground AOEs that can one-shot a dps unless you can dodge roll out of the way. DW daggers have the highest damage but meant that you were forced to go melee: your dps would be higher when you were in range and lower when you had to do mechs. In contrast, a ranged dps could stay at range and shoot away, do a bit less max damage but more consistently.

On my bowsorc, magsorc and bowden can I can parse about 100k on dummy (about 4-5% behind DW) but a significant portion of their damage depends on ground dots (e.g. Endless Hail, Wall of Elements, Storm Atro, Liquid Lightning etc) that needs to be recast regularly against a moving opponent. In contrast, the Fartcarver not only tracks the target but also cuts through everything which means you are never forced to tab-target or otherwise lose dps on the boss by accidentally hitting the wrong target.

I am not talking about dummy parses. These do not win trial rewards or achievements. What really matters how one can deal damage in a real fight situation ingame.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

This balance is lost newer content suchs as Shipwright' Regret where the final boss (Captain Numirril) teleports around the battlefield like an idiot bunny on illegal stimulants. This completely messes up the melee classes and also makes life hard on the non-arcanist ranged classes too.

Exactly my point: Recent fight designs push the balance towards ranged builds, of course including arcanist which is per definitionem a ranged build. I may have higher dps on a dummy compared to my ranged counterpart but what is the use of it if I lose this advantage in a real situation when I have to run around a lot just to get into melee range or I cannot get into melee range without standing in an AOE?

A ranged player irrespective of the class can simply turn to place the pointer to the new situation and continue doing damage. This turn can be performed in a time that a melee player can only dream of when needing to cross the entire arena.

And let's not talk about those fights where you have to stand in a certain location in order to play the mechanics. Again, as a ranged player you can still shoot at the boss while as a melee...

I forgot the name of the dungeon but you know that end boss where you have to destroy water spheres falling down that wipes groups in vet content are a good example of that. Or the chimera boss in Sanity's Edge where you have to take the star portals and play the sequence by destroying the small red crystals in the right order. A ranged simply turns and shoots at them while me as melee have to run to it and will fail most of the time to do it within the alotted time.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The really sad thing about the arcanist is that it will degrade the average skill level of the playerbase since it allows players to skip certain mechanics. Then ZOS will be in a similar situation as Oakensoul HA builds where if they do introduce a nerf, a significant number of the newer playerbase will quit rather than have to work much harder on a different class to be able to clear the same content as before.

Yeah, I mentioned this already and I fully agree with you. I understand that they want to offer an easy access class. The issue is that this class too much outperforms the others in many circumstances while not being an introduction to the fight system from which these players can progress. For that the bar is simply too high and there is zero incitement to go for a significantly more difficult playstyle.

alpha_synuclein

The moment we started using weapons for their passives more than for their power, all melee vs ranged balance went to trash.
Hybridization made it worse and arcanists are last nail to the coffin. Especially while Velothi is making most weapon attacks obsolete.

That said, most fights in group content can be turned into reasonably melee friendly with good positioning. But who cares about learning positioning if you can beam the boss from Deshaan while wielding melee weapon...

amig186

If you have the Velothi amulet, you can equip dual daggers and just use ranged abilities, since your basic attacks become useless anyway. Though not all classes have enough of those.

moderatelyfatman

amig186 wrote: »

If you have the Velothi amulet, you can equip dual daggers and just use ranged abilities, since your basic attacks become useless anyway. Though not all classes have enough of those.

Agreed, and no other class has a single spammable (ranged or otherwise) that does 60% of your total dps.

@katanagirl1 @Sakiri
Standing close the boss is no longer necessary if you are doing an all Arcanist run.

moderatelyfatman

I've noticed the same thing when doing dungeons, I can get close to the dps of an arcanist on my templar if I have a really good tank in the group who can pull the trash in quickly or hold the bosses still (not always possible because of mechs) while I drop ground DoTs. Otherwise, I'm struggling to keep up with arcanists with 200CP and no trials sets.

The situation is fixable by taking a leaf out of the Advancing Yokeda set. ZOS could limit the passives bonuses to melee weapons skills (DW, 2H, S&B) and class skills with a melee range (Lava Whip, Templar Jabs, Necro Scythe etc). They would need to significantly increase the buff to balance this (or nerf staff and bow) but it would promote a 'high risk, high reward' playstyle that melee should represent.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

That's why you do more damage being melee (ie: daggers, two handed), as you take more risks in exchange for more dps.

Or, you can use bow or staff for those situations.
 

I ran the Archive yesterday with an arcanist who was maybe one third of my cp. He cut through the enemies like a hot knife through butter. I made about 25% of the damage, him 75%. Of course, while my build is a bit(!) tankier (stam dk with dagger/bow) him was more a glass canon. As soon as things got a bit serious he struggled with survival and, so he said, with sustain. The latter is unsurprising: He used daggers on his front bar (dunno if he played backbar at all) but all he did was spamming two or three times tentacles and then melted them away with his laser beam. He did use ZERO weapon attacks as far as I have seen. Of course his sustain was accordingly. That guy carried the weapons only for the passives. It is simply no longer true that melee players make more damage. Even if I used my build for trials (so maxing dps) I may at best be at par with that guy - me with triple cp...

[To be honest: I think the design idea of the arcanist is a turning or even breaking point for the entire fight system of ESO. Up to now, people were somehow incited to use weapons actively and thus learned how to sustain. Newer players "growing up" with arcanist playstyle will no longer learn this. (I guess that is one reason why sustain at the moment in general is less a factor in order to allow this new playstyle, me chiming into what people discuss in terms of build within my raid guild here.) In fact weapons for them are entirely futile - apart from the passives. This is breaking completely with how fights were initially designed.]