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Points of Note Regarding Card Destruction Versus Combos, the Druid Patron, and the Prestige Check
Personofsecrets
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There are a few game aspects that I want to condense together here for the purpose of sharing knowledge. It also is the case that some game mechanics, lineage of game mechanics, and some inconsistencies are pointed out here.
First and foremost, I'm happy to announce that combos again trigger even if a combo piece is being simultaneously destroyed.
For example, if a player uses Elder Witch to destroy their War Song, then Elder Witch will still have it's Combo 2 ability to replace a card in the tavern triggered.
Likewise, if a player uses Elder Witch to destroy their Midnight Raid, yes such scenarios may arise, then Raid's Combo 2 ability will also trigger.
It is fairly important to be able to destroy War Song and a common line of play is to try and get combo value from it the same turn that it is destroyed, so it is nice to see Elder Witch, Blood Sacrifice, and Bloody Offering have this utility. Rajhin also may have some corner cases where a player wishes to destroy part of a combo with Moonlit Illusion. For example, it may be advantageous to destroy Swipe. In such cases, the combos will still trigger so long as their criteria is met at the time of a Comboing cards activation.
Below is the thread where I expressed disappointment that combo triggers where being checked for after effect resolution and how that didn't makes sense. I'm not sure exactly when my complaint was heard and I'm a little embarrassed to not report these findings sooner, but I'm human, after all...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646316/combo-activation-triggers-have-incorrect-timing
Another combo curiosity that has been sticking in my mind has to do with how the Druid Patron and it's "Double Chimera" proc. It hasn't been exactly clear what triggers the proc, but I've finally figured it out.
As it turns out, the "Double Chimera" proc happens when a player has Combo 5 as the Druid King Patron is facing away from them. When this player uses the Druid King Patron as to make it neutral, the first Chimera will be placed into their deck. If they have an additional Patron use and turns the Druid King Patron to face them, then a second Chimera will be added to their deck on the same turn.
It's actually not clear how this Patron should work when it comes to making Chimeras. I'm not going to go through all of the different ways that one can try to get a Chimera, but there are ways of meeting the Patrons Chimera criteria twice during multiple patron flips, but still not get two Chimeras on that same turn. So because there is an inconsistency, again, it's not clear how things should be. I intuit that only one Chimera should be possible per turn, but there technically isn't any reason why meeting the neutral Druid King effect should be considered to be the same as the favored Druid King effect. They can be multiple different effects, that fine, but yea, there is an inconsistency. Anyhow... there is too another inconsistency.
The Druid King "Combo" isn't the same type of Combo that card effects use. The Druid King Patron effect is able to track and remember previously played Druid King cards in the turn EVEN IF those cards are destroyed by an effect. And this type of thing can be somewhat relevant. Let's say that one wants to remove a Totem from their played cards pile (since they can get redundant), but still have an opportunity of drawing another Druid King card during the turn to potentially generate a Chimera. Well, that is all well and good and completely possible with how the Druid King patron works.
I mentioned in the previously linked to thread how it is silly that a digital card game can't handle things like remembering the destroyed cards for the purpose of Combos. As it turns out, I was right on that thought. This digital platform is perfectly capable of remembering all of the cards that are played during the turn. Afterall, there is that card effect tracker that shows up to the left of the playing area.
So that all likely means that it is for some reason a design choice for cards to need to remain in the played cards pile in order to Combo. It's not the case that the game can't hypothetically handle the task.
For those interested, I previously documented the Chimera "issue" below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650490/the-double-chimera-proc-really-does-exist
I'd also like to take a moment to give the designers some credit regarding the Patron Use counter. At one point I sort of riffed on the idea that we get that counter despite some of the other things going on in the game. The above details make me realize why the counter is important. Because of how the card destruction and combo system works, there is much less potential confusion when having a Patron Use counter to better show what's going in the case that someone has gained Patron Uses via the effect of combos. Both the Delmene class and Almalexia class offers such functionality and it just so happens that the Delmene class also has a built in destroy cards effect.
Without the Patron use counter, it could be possible to get confused by doing something like playing Currency Exchange, buying a Kwam Egg for Combo Two on the Currency Exchange, destroying the Currency Exchange with the Delmene Patron and then wonder if one will get a second Patron Use since the card that gave the extra Patron Use is now destroyed. For the record, I believe that we also retained these extra Patron Uses, even if we destroyed our Currency Exchange first, but the Patron Use counter does give some clarity to these matters. I found a need for clarity some time ago and detailed it in the below thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626835/delmene-combo-killer-psa
Lastly, I'd like to discuss an inconsistency with the Prestige win condition. In the past, I had detailed how the game does not have ties or continue once a player has reached 80 prestige. That said, there are some new findings that show how the system isn't quite right.
Part of the issues is that the game ends immediately if the player who is playing their turn out reaches 80 prestige. As soon as they hit that threshold, they win. It can happen at the end of the turn or before the end of the turn. There are situations where a turn player is not actually the first player to reach 80 prestige. It is possible that they may need to do something that causes the opponent to gain prestige over the 80 limit during their own turn. In that case, the opponent does not immediately win the game despite technically hitting the win condition threshold. Not only is this an inconsistency, but I also believe that there can be scenarios where a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent. I'll double check about that possibility at some point, but I'm fairly confident that it can happen and that really isn't right if it can. Anyhow, my previous writings about the games Prestige win condition are found below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655039/just-for-your-interest-tot-does-not-have-tie-games
And yes, I'm still a free agent everyone.
Edited by ZOS_Kevin on November 7, 2024 10:34AM First and foremost, I'm happy to announce that combos again trigger even if a combo piece is being simultaneously destroyed.
For example, if a player uses Elder Witch to destroy their War Song, then Elder Witch will still have it's Combo 2 ability to replace a card in the tavern triggered.
Likewise, if a player uses Elder Witch to destroy their Midnight Raid, yes such scenarios may arise, then Raid's Combo 2 ability will also trigger.
It is fairly important to be able to destroy War Song and a common line of play is to try and get combo value from it the same turn that it is destroyed, so it is nice to see Elder Witch, Blood Sacrifice, and Bloody Offering have this utility. Rajhin also may have some corner cases where a player wishes to destroy part of a combo with Moonlit Illusion. For example, it may be advantageous to destroy Swipe. In such cases, the combos will still trigger so long as their criteria is met at the time of a Comboing cards activation.
Below is the thread where I expressed disappointment that combo triggers where being checked for after effect resolution and how that didn't makes sense. I'm not sure exactly when my complaint was heard and I'm a little embarrassed to not report these findings sooner, but I'm human, after all...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646316/combo-activation-triggers-have-incorrect-timing
Another combo curiosity that has been sticking in my mind has to do with how the Druid Patron and it's "Double Chimera" proc. It hasn't been exactly clear what triggers the proc, but I've finally figured it out.
As it turns out, the "Double Chimera" proc happens when a player has Combo 5 as the Druid King Patron is facing away from them. When this player uses the Druid King Patron as to make it neutral, the first Chimera will be placed into their deck. If they have an additional Patron use and turns the Druid King Patron to face them, then a second Chimera will be added to their deck on the same turn.
It's actually not clear how this Patron should work when it comes to making Chimeras. I'm not going to go through all of the different ways that one can try to get a Chimera, but there are ways of meeting the Patrons Chimera criteria twice during multiple patron flips, but still not get two Chimeras on that same turn. So because there is an inconsistency, again, it's not clear how things should be. I intuit that only one Chimera should be possible per turn, but there technically isn't any reason why meeting the neutral Druid King effect should be considered to be the same as the favored Druid King effect. They can be multiple different effects, that fine, but yea, there is an inconsistency. Anyhow... there is too another inconsistency.
The Druid King "Combo" isn't the same type of Combo that card effects use. The Druid King Patron effect is able to track and remember previously played Druid King cards in the turn EVEN IF those cards are destroyed by an effect. And this type of thing can be somewhat relevant. Let's say that one wants to remove a Totem from their played cards pile (since they can get redundant), but still have an opportunity of drawing another Druid King card during the turn to potentially generate a Chimera. Well, that is all well and good and completely possible with how the Druid King patron works.
I mentioned in the previously linked to thread how it is silly that a digital card game can't handle things like remembering the destroyed cards for the purpose of Combos. As it turns out, I was right on that thought. This digital platform is perfectly capable of remembering all of the cards that are played during the turn. Afterall, there is that card effect tracker that shows up to the left of the playing area.
So that all likely means that it is for some reason a design choice for cards to need to remain in the played cards pile in order to Combo. It's not the case that the game can't hypothetically handle the task.
For those interested, I previously documented the Chimera "issue" below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650490/the-double-chimera-proc-really-does-exist
I'd also like to take a moment to give the designers some credit regarding the Patron Use counter. At one point I sort of riffed on the idea that we get that counter despite some of the other things going on in the game. The above details make me realize why the counter is important. Because of how the card destruction and combo system works, there is much less potential confusion when having a Patron Use counter to better show what's going in the case that someone has gained Patron Uses via the effect of combos. Both the Delmene class and Almalexia class offers such functionality and it just so happens that the Delmene class also has a built in destroy cards effect.
Without the Patron use counter, it could be possible to get confused by doing something like playing Currency Exchange, buying a Kwam Egg for Combo Two on the Currency Exchange, destroying the Currency Exchange with the Delmene Patron and then wonder if one will get a second Patron Use since the card that gave the extra Patron Use is now destroyed. For the record, I believe that we also retained these extra Patron Uses, even if we destroyed our Currency Exchange first, but the Patron Use counter does give some clarity to these matters. I found a need for clarity some time ago and detailed it in the below thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626835/delmene-combo-killer-psa
Lastly, I'd like to discuss an inconsistency with the Prestige win condition. In the past, I had detailed how the game does not have ties or continue once a player has reached 80 prestige. That said, there are some new findings that show how the system isn't quite right.
Part of the issues is that the game ends immediately if the player who is playing their turn out reaches 80 prestige. As soon as they hit that threshold, they win. It can happen at the end of the turn or before the end of the turn. There are situations where a turn player is not actually the first player to reach 80 prestige. It is possible that they may need to do something that causes the opponent to gain prestige over the 80 limit during their own turn. In that case, the opponent does not immediately win the game despite technically hitting the win condition threshold. Not only is this an inconsistency, but I also believe that there can be scenarios where a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent. I'll double check about that possibility at some point, but I'm fairly confident that it can happen and that really isn't right if it can. Anyhow, my previous writings about the games Prestige win condition are found below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/655039/just-for-your-interest-tot-does-not-have-tie-games
And yes, I'm still a free agent everyone.
Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
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Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?Edited by spartaxoxo on May 7, 2024 12:47PM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?
Haruspex triggersDon't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?
Haruspex triggers
Ah, forgot about him. So killing the agent granted the prestige. That makes sense. I can see why those points don't count towards your win condition until your turn tbh.
Edited by spartaxoxo on May 7, 2024 2:56PM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?
Haruspex triggers
Ah, forgot about him. So killing the agent granted the prestige. That makes sense. I can see why those points don't count towards your win condition until your turn tbh.
I'm actually wondering now what happens if you get over 80 prestige during the opponents turn and then they pass the turn to you without getting 80 themselves. I wonder if the 80 prestige win trigger could potentially be missed.
One sort of funny thing that can happen is that if you are at 39 prestige with a guard Agent and Haruspex, the opponent will eventually kill the guard, push you to 40 prestige and then lose as soon as they end their turn (if they aren't matching or above the prestige amount).
That may mean that the game will still check for who is higher prestige at the end of the turn, so maybe there won't be a bugged game state.Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?
Haruspex triggers
Ah, forgot about him. So killing the agent granted the prestige. That makes sense. I can see why those points don't count towards your win condition until your turn tbh.
I'm actually wondering now what happens if you get over 80 prestige during the opponents turn and then they pass the turn to you without getting 80 themselves. I wonder if the 80 prestige win trigger could potentially be missed.
One sort of funny thing that can happen is that if you are at 39 prestige with a guard Agent and Haruspex, the opponent will eventually kill the guard, push you to 40 prestige and then lose as soon as they end their turn (if they aren't matching or above the prestige amount).
That may mean that the game will still check for who is higher prestige at the end of the turn, so maybe there won't be a bugged game state.
I would be curious to know as well. If the game automatically ends as soon as you end your turn because now the opponent has hit 80 on their own turn, then likely it's working as intended and you have to reach 80 on your turn. Which would make sense so that players can't make someone else flat out win before they can play out their full hand due to curses.
If the win condition is missed and you get to play out your turn until you increase your prestige again, then it makes me wonder if it's intended.
And this also makes me wonder if the win condition is missed and you didn't increase your prestige that turn, would the opponent then again get a new turn. And could they then use that turn to lower you below 80 again.
Weird!Edited by spartaxoxo on May 7, 2024 3:43PM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »It turns out that a player can win the game even if they have less prestige than the opponent!
How is the player gaining prestige on an opponents turn? I know Mora gives power to your opponent but which card gives prestige to your opponent?
Haruspex triggers
Ah, forgot about him. So killing the agent granted the prestige. That makes sense. I can see why those points don't count towards your win condition until your turn tbh.
I'm actually wondering now what happens if you get over 80 prestige during the opponents turn and then they pass the turn to you without getting 80 themselves. I wonder if the 80 prestige win trigger could potentially be missed.
One sort of funny thing that can happen is that if you are at 39 prestige with a guard Agent and Haruspex, the opponent will eventually kill the guard, push you to 40 prestige and then lose as soon as they end their turn (if they aren't matching or above the prestige amount).
That may mean that the game will still check for who is higher prestige at the end of the turn, so maybe there won't be a bugged game state.
I would be curious to know as well. If the game automatically ends as soon as you end your turn because now the opponent has hit 80 on their own turn, then likely it's working as intended and you have to reach 80 on your turn. Which would make sense so that players can't make someone else flat out win before they can play out their full hand due to curses.
If the win condition is missed and you get to play out your turn until you increase your prestige again, then it makes me wonder if it's intended.
And this also makes me wonder if the win condition is missed and you didn't increase your prestige that turn, would the opponent then again get a new turn. And could they then use that turn to lower you below 80 again.
Weird!
As it turns out, if a player pushes an opponent to 80 prestige during their turn and doesn't reach 80 or more themselves, then the opponent will win at the end of the turn.
I also learned that Druid King Vestments continuous effect is attached to the card. So if it is destroyed for some reason, then it's effect will cease.Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel1