Why bother with character classes?

Daran_Cousland

Players don't gain anything by simply choosing a class, so why not make all skill lines available to all characters? I've got so many skill points with nothing to spend them on, and I'd like to try mixing with other class skill lines to make a unique character class.

NoticeMeArkay

I have collected every single skill point possible in this game and just skilling everything to max EXCEPT every weapon skill line, I got 7 unspent left over. The only weapon skill lines I maxed out are both destruction and healing staffs. I could spent the 7 I got left on finalizing the bow and dual wield skill line I only halfway finished, leaving me with not enough skill points to acquire 2-handed and sword and board aswell.

For that to do, to finish off all the missing weapon skill lines and truly max out my skill books, I'd require 28 more skill points.

You don't have too many skill points.

RicAlmighty

No.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I suspect if they did this a not-insignificant portion of the player base would be running extremely similar builds.

That said, I’d love a couple of the other classes’ skills on my Sorc.

Rowjoh

Daran_Cousland wrote: »

Players don't gain anything by simply choosing a class, so why not make all skill lines available to all characters? I've got so many skill points with nothing to spend them on, and I'd like to try mixing with other class skill lines to make a unique character class.

oh yes you do - starting with the basic character look !

Looks are important and my Argonian and Khajiit chars look like nothing else on earth, let alone ESO!

VisitHammerfell

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

valenwood_vegan

Sounds like a balancing nightmare, and would probably result in all of the best remaining class skills getting nerfed further into bland nothingness.

We're getting scribing soon so hopefully it'll be a good enough system to scratch that "mix n' match skills" itch.

Cooperharley

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

Oblivion has classes my G

Soarora

Cooperharley wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

Oblivion has classes my G

So does almost every other TES game to my knowledge, only ones I can think of that don't have classes are Skyrim and Blades.

VisitHammerfell

Cooperharley wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

Oblivion has classes my G

Ok. Thank you for being polite in your correction, I will admit I was wrong there, I should have just said Skyrim

NGL, I forgot about that. I mean, it gives you bonuses to certain skills and specalizations, but it's not like here's 18 moves that only you can do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't say a rogue shoot fire spells?

Most RPGs in general have classes that's kinda the point to them as I'm sure you know. In single player games there's more leeway for mixing skills (like getting one of your companions skills in Mass Effect) but in an MMO it would be a balancing nightmare. Class identity is very important. Esp in PvP. I think too many people want ESO to behave like single player games.

BlueRaven

I listened to the Amsterdam talks, and if I am remembering it right the game had a long development cycle.

When you hear about the timeline of the games development, they started working on this game AFTER Oblivion, but BEFORE Skyrim. Oblivion had character classes. And so did WoW.

After Skyrim basically exploded they started trying to pull the game more toward Skyrim, but I think they were too far into development to drop the character classes.

Remember they were really looking to make a WoW clone in an Elder Scrolls wrapper. They tried changing as much as the could, but I guess classes had to stay.

I don’t know how I feel about classes really. I am annoyed at the forums “please nerf this class” threads, and no classes would eliminate those at least. But I can’t help feeling that without classes everyone would have the exact same build.

Lazarus_Rising

The reason for classes was to enable different playstyles and different set choices. But with the standardization you can already see that some sets will be used by all classes now. PVP is the best example currently.

One half is already gone basically. If we get rid of the classes then we will have a meta with all the same skills and all the same sets.

This will make balance easier for the devs but the game will be super bland.

I still like the idea of choosing whatever skill you like and build your own class, but its dangerous.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Cooperharley wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

Oblivion has classes my G

Yes, but they don't restrict you to anything. Classes in Oblivion is just a collection of your favourite skills. You can still learn and master all the other ones.

Classes in Elder Scrolls are more guidlines than actual rules. Except in ESO, where now even armour styles has become restricted to classes.

Monte_Cristo

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'd like to see classes replaced by a system where you have all class skill trees (currently 21 trees) available to choose from, but you can only choose 3 trees. Like making your own class, and there might be more build variety, outside the meta chasers.

Nerouyn

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes.

Many MMOs are classless.

Eve Online and Warframe are two of the most popular sci-fi MMOs.

Warframe's developers are making a classless fantasy game right now called Soulframe.

There's also less popular games like Ryzom, Champions Online, New World.

Some have shut down like Defiance, Darkfall.

There have also been many in-between games like City of Heroes. No classes. Instead archetypes (tank, healer, damage, control) and players could choose a primary and secondary powerset from a big pools for each.

TaSheen

I just prefer classes as a frame for when I'm forced to mess with combat.

Alaztor91

Necro and Arcanist both have class-specific mechanics, and the 4 base game classes have their skills mixed up and don't follow the DPS/Heal/Tank skill tree design like the DLC classes do. There is probably more chance that ZOS releases a class-change token rather than allowing characters to have access to all class skill lines.

KaosWarMonk

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'd like to see classes replaced by a system where you have all class skill trees (currently 21 trees) available to choose from, but you can only choose 3 trees. Like making your own class, and there might be more build variety, outside the meta chasers.

I've also said this before. I'd very much like to see it but the chances of it happening is practically zero.

Every TES game has classes, yes that's true, but every TES game also gives you the option to create your own adventurer where you can choose what skill lines you major in. They then also let you use and develop any and all skill lines, just not as quickly. They also let any character learn any spell if they meet the requirements.

The requirement for balance because we have PVP would be a challenge but no more so than what it is already.

All that said whilst I like to think it'd be probably be cool it's just not how the game has been designed.

Monte_Cristo

KaosWarMonk wrote: »

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'd like to see classes replaced by a system where you have all class skill trees (currently 21 trees) available to choose from, but you can only choose 3 trees. Like making your own class, and there might be more build variety, outside the meta chasers.

I've also said this before. I'd very much like to see it but the chances of it happening is practically zero.

Every TES game has classes, yes that's true, but every TES game also gives you the option to create your own adventurer where you can choose what skill lines you major in. They then also let you use and develop any and all skill lines, just not as quickly. They also let any character learn any spell if they meet the requirements.

The requirement for balance because we have PVP would be a challenge but no more so than what it is already.

All that said whilst I like to think it'd be probably be cool it's just not how the game has been designed.

Letting us pick any 3 skill lines could reduce the need for balance, since if every skill is theoretically available to all, then it wouldn't matter as much if some are more powerful than others. Those who want to be the best of the best would pick those trees, while those playing for fun would just pick what themes they like for that toon, or whatever looks fun.

Daran_Cousland

Not a whole lot of imagination here. You really think everyone just copies the best meta? That everyone is going to agree on what the best meta is and march in lockstep? Don't you think making a character build to suit your play style might be fun? I don't know why you bother if you're just going to play like a bunch of AIs, everyone mindlessly pushing the same buttons. Do any of you actually play the game, or just hang out on forums to rack up stars or whatever?

edward_frigidhands

Daran_Cousland wrote: »

Players don't gain anything by simply choosing a class, so why not make all skill lines available to all characters? I've got so many skill points with nothing to spend them on, and I'd like to try mixing with other class skill lines to make a unique character class.

Agree so hard.

TaSheen

Daran_Cousland wrote: »

Not a whole lot of imagination here. You really think everyone just copies the best meta? That everyone is going to agree on what the best meta is and march in lockstep? Don't you think making a character build to suit your play style might be fun? I don't know why you bother if you're just going to play like a bunch of AIs, everyone mindlessly pushing the same buttons. Do any of you actually play the game, or just hang out on forums to rack up stars or whatever?

That's pretty much how those progressing any sort of end game do things, yes.

I play the game my way, which includes classes because I like them as a framework for when I must engage in combat. I don't do end game at all.

SeaGtGruff

You don't think classes add anything of value, yet you want to be able to create your own custom classes.

Huh? That actually underscores what I believe is the number one reason why most players like having classes in their RPGs-- for the roleplaying aspects. That's their primary value.

Kalle_Demos

No.

Nerouyn

YESSSS!!!!!

barney2525

No.
This game has classes because there are benefits and drawbacks to each class.
They already made the game well balanced so every class can do all the content.
What we do Not need is every single character being identical to whatever the Meta is.

Elyu

The problem is the poor hybridization that has been implemented.
It used to be each class had a somewhat unique playstyle, but this has slowly been homogenised over time until all classes feel the same to play.

See: all previous discussions on these forums about "class identity" (hint: it's more than just the visual appearance of the skills, or some line of text describing the "theme" of the class on the ESO website)

Mathius_Mordred

Wow way to make the game super boring super quick.

Danikat

I'd prefer to be able to pick my own skills from the full selection, it's what I always do in games which offer that choice (including all the previous TES games), but I also agree that there's a significant proportion of players whose main or only priority is using the 'best' build and without classes it's very likely you'd end up with certain builds, or even individual skills being used everywhere, all the time, and other players being pressured to conform and use those options whether they want to or not.

Some of that happens now, with players who will have multiple characters of different classes not so they have a variety of options but so they can always play whatever general consensus tells them is best right now, then switch when there's an update and something else is declared to be better. But at least with different classes the players who tell those types what to play aim to have options for most classes, without them it could easily get down to 1 tank build, 1 healer build and 1 damage build (or just 1 which can do all 3, if you factor in balance issues).

The other danger is that in order to avoid that ZOS try to make everything equal and you end up with skills that are effectively all the same but with different colours and names, and even, or especially, for role-play purposes that would be disappointing.

There are ways around that to some extent, the silliest and yet often most effective I've found in some games was simply to invent a name for my DIY builds that sounds like something you'd find on a guide site, then tell people I'm not sure I'm allowed to share where it came from. But it's still annoying to have to do that, and doesn't always work.

It's easier in single-player games because if you use a rediculously OP build that makes the game boring you're only affecting yourself, not everyone else trying to play, and chances are a lot of people will never know about it. (I only found out when I joined this forum that according to some people "everyone" used a bow in Skyrim, I never did.)

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes. If you have that many spare skill points, you're not spending them on different weapons, armor weights, guild lines, and crafting. And can you imagine an dk with shadow cloak or a warden with cleansing ritual? No thanks.

Classes are classes. If you want to mix skills, that's what weapon, guild, and world skills are for.

Oblivion has classes my G

Yes, but they don't restrict you to anything. Classes in Oblivion is just a collection of your favourite skills. You can still learn and master all the other ones.

Classes in Elder Scrolls are more guidlines than actual rules. Except in ESO, where now even armour styles has become restricted to classes.

It always surprises me how many people don't know that, especially with Oblivion which if I remember correctly defaults to asking you to choose individual skills and attributes and offers pre-made classes as a secondary option (Morrowind offers both, and a 'quiz' which results in a suggested class). Also all the pre-made classes have some odd choices so even if you do want a generic archetype like 'archer' or 'fighter' there's often better options.

(Admittedly I went the other way and was genuinely a bit disappointed to see my terrible mess of a build gradually turned into a sensible choice as successive games removed or simplified options.)

Nerouyn wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

If you don't want classes, then play the single player TES games. This is an MMO, which have classes.

Many MMOs are classless.

Eve Online and Warframe are two of the most popular sci-fi MMOs.

Warframe's developers are making a classless fantasy game right now called Soulframe.

There's also less popular games like Ryzom, Champions Online, New World.

Some have shut down like Defiance, Darkfall.

There have also been many in-between games like City of Heroes. No classes. Instead archetypes (tank, healer, damage, control) and players could choose a primary and secondary powerset from a big pools for each.

Ultima Online, one of the oldest MMOs, did the same thing as the older single-player TES games - giving you the choice between a "class" which is basically a pre-made skill selection and choosing for yourself, with the ability to change it later on simply by using different skills so you start levelling them up.

But even if it was true that all previous MMOs had classes I sincerely hope no one working on a new one would say something like "we have to have classes, because MMOs have classes" because that's the kind of thinking that could kill even the most basic innovation and end up producing disappointingly generic games with absolutely nothing to appeal to potential players.

Sakiri

Ehhhhh I'll go with no.

It's bad enough that all DPS are wearing the exact same sets, using the exact same non class abilities. Same goes for tanks and healers.

All my DPS use trap, wall of elements, rapid strikes, etc depending on if it's a stamina build or a magicka build.

Even, for example, my sorcerer. Stamina and Magicka builds use the same abilities. Both pets, Daedric Prey, a spammable, trap, and aoe, ground aoe, and hurricane.

Lotta stuff is already too similar. I don't want that to get even worse.

Yudo

If the OP topic was about hybridization, armor or races, there is discussion to be had on class identity.
However, let's please keep classes separate and fix the identity issues rather than doubling down on it.
Meta is already suggesting that my mage should be wearing medium armor and wield a long sword with dual daggers...regardless of the class.