Discussion On Ithelia - [Possible "Necrom" and "Scions of Ithelia" Spoilers]

TheGamerSeal

DISCLAIMER: This article was written without any knowledge of the upcoming Gold Road expansion's zone story. I don't use the public test server, so what is written below does not knowingly contain any spoilers for it. However, there may be spoilers from content leading up to the Gold Road (i.e. Necrom and Scions of Ithelia).

Hello, everyone. Recently, I found the motivation to finish the Summerset zone story - not that it was bad, mind you, but I just have other priorities that tend to keep me from completing story content - and the ending really got me thinking about Daedric Princes and how their meddling tends to create these massive stories for our characters to take part in. With Update 42 on the horizon, one of the things I've been thinking about is what sort of meddling will Ithelia herself be getting up to? More pointedly, what sort of meddling will the so-called "Prince of Paths", who can alter fate in accordance with her will, be getting up to?

On the real-life side of things, I'll admit to being appropriately concerned. I'm passionate about the Elder Scrolls - and have been for a long time - but if Ithelia is capable of what I believe she's capable of, she could certainly be used by the developers as a tool to rewrite older sections of ESO or its lore that no longer correspond with the overall story they want to tell; in other words, Ithelia is throwing up tons of red flags that all say "ret-con" on them, which for someone like me who is passionate about storytelling, that's more than enough cause for concern. I could really go on and on about which pieces of ESO's content I'm most concerned about, but I should let this post come to a close here first and see what you, the reader, have to say on the subject - if anything.

So, what do you think?

Necrotech_Master

the only thing im aware of based on existing knowledge from the live server (i also dont go on PTS) is that the theory of ithelia is that she is the one who can will powerful mortals into existence

powerful mortals such as the main playable character protagonist of most elder scrolls games could qualify

when doing oathsworn pit after you get to the room with the staff of many paths which is now missing, if you talk to some of the orc NPCs they can give you info on the staff of many paths, such as that every once in awhile, there would be a complete novice who during a fight would end up beating a master black and blue with no training

to go along with this, it could explain why even though your character is killed as a sacrifice to molag bal, you end up becoming basically a perfect vestige that was basically immortal like a daedra is that this could have been "willed" by ithelia, as even something seemingly extremely minor as that significantly changed the course of the fate of nirn for example

dcam86b14_ESO

just my theory but I think they will lead us to ESO 2 or some type of refresh of the game

tsaescishoeshiner

Spoilers for the Necrom quest or Gold Road prologue would still be marked as spoilers, for people who haven't done those yet

Dragonnord

Mark my words this thread will end in spoilers.
 

sharquez

I would like to say my hope is that she is an ongoing threat/ally/plotdevice and not a 1 and done villain of the year.

Nerouyn

TheGamerSeal wrote: »

More pointedly, what sort of meddling will the so-called "Prince of Paths", who can alter fate in accordance with her will, be getting up to?

Can she just bend fate to her will though or are you over-interpreting?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ithelia

Ithelia, known as the Prince of Paths, the Mistress of the Untraveled Road, the Unseen, the Fate-Changer, The Dark Reflection, the Last Tomorrow, and She Who Saw and Wept is the Daedric Prince of Paths.

I'd say her epithets speak more to a Prince who can flip fate along a different path. Change one historical outcome and reality adjusts to it.

The final two to someone who is upset by the end / death of things she sees.

Ayleid furnishings, in good condition rather than ruined like we typically see and also a bit different, could hint at the flip being preventing the Ayleid's demise. For whatever reason. Both their state and also differences - because styles change over time - could be explained by that.

On a different but related front, like you I'm playing old content again, and found the Grahtwood public dungeon story interesting. In terms of hinting at what the Dawnwood story could be about.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Root_Sunder_Ruins

The name of these Ayleid ruins implies they were abandoned because of encroaching tree roots. But the Wood Elves whisper that the sundering roots were not those of normal Grahtwood trees.

Short version of that story - the researchers at these ruins believe that they might be of an ancient elven city which the forest just up and ate.

If Ithelia restores the Ayleids, the Dawnwood story might be Valenwood doing that again.

ArchMikem

So, I know this thread is supposed to be spoilers free, but I took a gander into the PTS Feedback thread for the Main Story and all I think I can safely say is, don't worry about it, nothing changes.

Sure there's plenty of implications for a Daedric Prince with the kind of Power Ithelia controls, but when it comes to the Canon ZOS has written for her. Yeah. Nothing really happens in the end. It's gonna leave a LOT of players with some, disappointment.

Nerouyn

ArchMikem wrote: »

So, I know this thread is supposed to be spoilers free, but I took a gander into the PTS Feedback thread for the Main Story and all I think I can safely say is, don't worry about it, nothing changes.

Sure there's plenty of implications for a Daedric Prince with the kind of Power Ithelia controls, but when it comes to the Canon ZOS has written for her. Yeah. Nothing really happens in the end. It's gonna leave a LOT of players with some, disappointment.

I never expected huge changes in that department.

Even though most properties don't do it the same degree as eg. The Simpsons where no matter happens in any given episode, the world rubber bands back by the beginning of the next one, most fictional properties shy away from big change.

In promos the devs have also told us that Gold Road's story shows us something we've never seen before - a Daedric Prince undergo character development and that's the story.

Personally I wouldn't be at all disappointed for the Ayleids to go poof again. For the most part, they were dreadful. Remembering of course that some supported the Alessian rebellion.

Always loved their style though and was disappointed that Summerset was not in that or Auridon's style.

Gold Road gives us some pretty new furnishings in that style so I'm good.

Kalle_Demos

I highly doubt that there will be retcons. ESO takes place before ES III, IV and V. They're not just going to erase all that story as we await ES VI.

TheGamerSeal

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

...the theory of Ithelia is that she is the one who can will powerful mortals into existence... powerful mortals such as the main playable characters of most elder scrolls games...

That would be the type of thing I'm worried about most, where some new addition to ESO just suddenly starts explaining certain things across all Elder Scrolls games - isn't that what a ret-con is?

TheGamerSeal

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Spoilers for the Necrom quest or Gold Road prologue would still be marked as spoilers, for people who haven't done those yet.

Personally, I believe players have had more than enough time to play the Necrom content and Gold Road prologue; nevertheless, I have updated the title and part of the disclaimer to account for potential spoilers around that time frame.

TheGamerSeal

sharquez wrote: »

I would like to say my hope is that she is an ongoing threat/ally/plotdevice and not a 1 and done villain of the year.

I will have to personally disagree with you on that. I think, story-wise, there's a reason Mora had her locked away and forgotten. If she is to remain free by the story's end, then on a real-life note she should be shelved so the potential she has is not abused by developers.

TheGamerSeal

Nerouyn wrote: »

Can she just bend fate to her will, or are you over-interpreting?

From an in-game perspective, I believe she will only have the power to alter fate. From a real-life perspective, there's something about her that just screams "developer ret-con tool".

TheGamerSeal

Nerouyn wrote: »

In promos, the developers have told us that Gold Road's story shows us something we've never seen before - a Daedric Prince undergo character development...

Isn't the very nature of a Daedric Prince undergoing character development in direct opposition to the point of a Daedric Prince, that being they have a sphere of influence that they can't really differentiate from despite their ability to change creation in general? For example, I've seen it argued that Molag Bal isn't evil in his own right, rather the aspects of his sphere are almost universally viewed as evil, which is why he is considered an evil Prince - I know most Reachclans revere him since, to them, he is a constant source of inflicting trying times that harden them against the trials of the Reach.

TheGamerSeal

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I highly doubt that there will be retcons. ESO takes place before ES III, IV and V. They're not just going to erase all that story as we await ES VI.

I admire your optimism, but I'm sure I've heard of that exact thing happening in other intellectual properties countless times before.

Kalle_Demos

TheGamerSeal wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I highly doubt that there will be retcons. ESO takes place before ES III, IV and V. They're not just going to erase all that story as we await ES VI.

I admire your optimism, but I'm sure I've heard of that exact thing happening in other intellectual properties countless times before.

Point taken. But I suspect that if there were going to be massive retcons, they would have done so by now. Bethesda is directly involved with Ithelia and they've stopped Zos from going too far out of bounds before with the Dwemer. They care about the integrity and identity of the franchise. That's why, despite the constant calls for it, they have never added new races to the game. Something I'm sure they know they could make money from. They care and know that the community and identity built around The Elder Scrolls is far more valuable.

Nerouyn

TheGamerSeal wrote: »

Isn't the very nature of a Daedric Prince undergoing character development in direct opposition to the point of a Daedric Prince, that being they have a sphere of influence that they can't really differentiate from despite their ability to change creation in general?

That is not "the point" of DPs and your assertion that they're incapable of change has no basis that I'm aware of.

It is something we haven't seen before unless you count Azura whose representation in Morrowind and later games is much less sinister than earlier ones. Though that looks much more like a retcon than personality change.

Most of these being are immortals who are older than Tamriel. Their perspective on time would be very different and it's safe to assume they'd be much more self aware than the average mortal. Also powerful.

If we haven't seen them change it's more likely that they simply know and like who they are.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Nerouyn wrote: »

That is not "the point" of DPs and your assertion that they're incapable of change has no basis that I'm aware of.

Lyranth, regarding Dremora changed into Incarnates by the Cataclyst:

"Volunteer? The very thought is repugnant. Do you not understand how we value what makes us who we are? To surrender to such a process is to be destroyed. The essence survives, but the mind, the purpose? Gone forever. Do you imagine they had a choice?"

TheGamerSeal

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Bethesda cares about the integrity and identity of the franchise. That's why, despite the constant calls for it, they have never added new races to the game - something I'm sure they know they could make money from.

I suppose I agree for the most part, though ESO alone has already introduced so many changes to The Elder Scrolls as a whole that I am very much against; I suppose it's for that reason that I have my initial concern, about Ithelia's potential.

TheGamerSeal

Nerouyn wrote: »

TheGamerSeal wrote: »

Isn't the very nature of a Daedric Prince undergoing character development in direct opposition to the point of a Daedric Prince, that being they have a sphere of influence that they can't really differentiate from despite their ability to change creation in general?

That is not "the point" of the Daedric Princes and your assertion that they're incapable of change has no basis that I'm aware of. It is something we haven't seen before unless you count Azura whose representation in Morrowind and later games is much less sinister than earlier ones - though that looks much more like a retcon than personality change.

Most of these beings are immortals who are older than Tamriel. Their perspective on time would be very different and it's safe to assume they'd be much more self aware than the average mortal - also powerful. If we haven't seen them change it's more likely that they simply know and like who they are.

To clarify my point, the Princes are capable of personal change; as an example, they can drastically change their physical appearance at will, such as Boethiah taking the form of a woman in games such as ESO and Skyrim, but appearing as a man in other releases.

What the Princes are incapable of changing is who they are, namely what they represent; they may be able to deceive mortals with lies and false personas, but they can only ever truthfully be what their sphere of influence allows them to be, which is what allows the more astute mortals to see through their disguises and call them out on their trickery.