Future Content Idea - Patronage

Vaqual

This is a concept idea for a larger future update:

It would be cool if Aedra/Daedra worship was a bit more tangible for players in game. I get that you can get the look and RP as whatever you like, but I was thinking of either a buff or skill line based system. I will explain how I roughly imagine both of these systems and afterwards I'll give some suggestions regarding the benefits they could offer. I'll explain it with the Aedra/Daedra concept, but of course other religious concepts are imaginable (e.g. Ancestors).

1. Buff system: Fulfill quests/offer tribute to gain the favour of XY. Receive a permament buff. (Explanation: This is the bare-bones variant.)

2. Skill-Line system: You receive a placeholder skill-line. All skills are locked blanks until you dedicate to a Patron, be it Aedric or Daedric. Swapping your faith resets all progress and can be done only via a ritual (or armory).

Progressing through the ranks could offer semi-generic titles like "Follower/Servant/Acolyte/Harbinger of...". More long term oriented related achievements could offer a more pompous set of Titles, like "Saint" or "Infernal General" or thematic things like this. There could also be "Sanctums/Temples/Covens" for each faith, with rank-locked vendors (offering cosmetics, furnishing or variants of food/drink/potion recipes) or even generic followers ("Priestess of Kyne").

On the combat side I would suggest small, but thematically appropriate effects. It is important that this does not throw another wrench into the gears of balancing. Some examples for the Buff approach:

Selfless Devotee of Mara: Your receive 2 % more healing from your spouse. Your heals are 2 % more effective on your spouse.
True Servant of Molag Bal: Your vampire lord appearance now has Wings and all Vampire abilities deal 2% more damage and cost 2% less resources. Your damage taken from followers of Meridia is increased by 2%.

And one example for the Skill-Line based approach, with Sheogorath theme:

1. Welcome to the Family: Unlocks the Wayshrine in the Shivering Isles Sanctum in ...*. Other followers of Sheogorath will offer their services to you. (Explanation: Baseline Trait)
2. Colorful Demise (passive): Unlocks the chance to play additional (mad) finisher animations, regardless of damage type. (Explanations: Rare chance of turning your enemy into cheese, a goat or butterflies when triggering a finisher animation.
3. Mad Logic (passive): You are becoming as unpredicatable as the Mad God himself. When you deal damage, grant yourself 1 % mitigation against the damage type you used. This buff can occur every 10 s and lasts for 15 s**.

*Placeholder for either an existing lore location or a completely new place
**Of course active abilities could also be implemented here, but that would be considerably more difficult to balance, as they would compete for bar space.

This system should be as non-invasive as possible. There shouldn't be dozens of quest NPCs shoving their pamphlet into your pockets or screaming at you in major cities. Followers could be placed in existing places of worship or new/small temples. They should be distinguishable enough so that the player can seek them out and get started with the Patron-System. The progression would of course most easily be implemented via quests (repeatable and maybe a Mini-Storyline), achievements or tribute/donations. Or even various acts (Stolen from the Companion System).

Some further thoughts & ideas:

• Multiple religions could be thinkable (with limited number (e.g. 2) or by type (e.g. one racial, one shared general)), but conflicting faiths could inflict severe penalties to the progress in another line, making some combinations impossible (e.g. Aedric+Daedric Patron)
• Introducing Group Duels as PvP-feature of the Update. Prove your worth to your Patron!
• Addition of a new battleground PvP map. The layout is always the same, but it is actually a GvG map (not GvGvG). The map style has the look of the defending teams Patron (e.g. Mephala, using existing assets), while the attackers try to breach the defense. Conceptualised as really short hit or miss map, where you can strategize with your team for one all-or-nothing push. Can be part of the general queue, but pops only if homogenous (patron-wise) teams can be formed. Entices grouping up and working together with your fellow cultists, as they will never be your opponents (except when using alts of course).
• Generic ToT-Deck ("Shackles of Devotion") with Card-Skins from your chosen Patron (+Patron-Icon in the Match). (Explanation: Mora could still keep his existing deck. He is smart enough to sponsor 2 Decks.)
• Players that do not wish to dedicate to a Patron should also not be denied a small unlockable benefit, so that it doesn't become a mandatory min-maxing decision, but it shouldn't come for free and also be linked to some type of quest/achievement/faction system (e.g. specific cultural/racial factions like Ancestor Worship for Dunmer or Errantry/Knighlty Vows for Bretons). Example: "By Sweat and Blood: The gods have given you nothing, and nothing they shall receive from you. You serve no higher power and you are the master of your own fate. Gain 100 points for a resource stat of your choice (Health, Magicka, Stamina) and 25 pointsof the related recovery stat."
• As hinted at above, swapping could be done via a Reset-Ritual or by attaching negative points for your current Patron upon pursuing another Patron.
• (might be extended based on feedback)

Edit: Dealing with cofllicting, pre-existing content (Base game references to keep it mostly spoiler free):

It would be too much effort to retroactively fit existing content to work with this system. But I think this is actually less of a problem than it seems if you take the following aspects into account:

• A character might not be intending to play certain conflicting content or to devote to a Patron that he is actively campaining against. In this case there is no problem at all, if this is the concept for that specific character.
• Joining of a cult could be chronologically before or after a relevant story chapter. Maybe your character changed his mind? Maybe circumstances forced him to act?
• The machinations of Aedra and Daedra are far too complex to be understood by mortals. Maybe stopping the Planemeld is part of an even bigger plot by the Lord of Schemes, with you as its supreme agent. (Explanation: Progress with a Patron should not be penalized by doing hard to avoid story and world content, only actively pursuing another conflicting Patron should pay you negative progress.)
• Deceiving your Patron can also be part of the RP experience. Maybe a unique one-time quest could be offered by Meridian followers to complete the base game storyline, yielding much more Progress towards Meridia and subtracting a hefty chunk of Molag Bal Progress.
• Of course it would be awesome if your actions could be acknowledged by NPCs in dialogue or banter. If you have brought a crushing defeat to your Patron before, they could have a line for that, but also acknowledge that you came around again, or that your goals elude them (similar to city guard banter system).

What do you think? Am I missing something? Is this something you would like to see? What is good and what is bad about it? There are a lot of details to flesh out and I think we can get creative here. I didn't want to make a full-concept, I was rather thinking everyone who feels inspired could post what they imagine for their favorite Patron, so that all is written in good faith. I might also add that for myself later.

I would be glad to hear your ideas and maybe even what the Mods/Devs think!

TaSheen

Interesting. I've written fan-fic in Skyrim with characters who've dealt with Meridia and Azura. I'd really enjoy that personally.

chessalavakia_ESO

I think at this stage of the game you'd run into a few challenges:

First, you've got a fair number of quests that involve rather directly interacting with the Daedra. It's going to be a bit awkward if we are aligned with said Daedra and fighting them or aligned with said Daedra and they are ignoring the fact. We also hit some interactions with Aedric aligned groups such as the Order of the Hour.

Second, players that min-max will likely feel forced to participate for passive buffs if you aren't really careful about their impact. For example, virtually all of my characters are in the Mage's Guild, Fighter's Guild, and Undaunted. They don't necessarily have any attachment to them from an RP sense but are stuck doing them because of the rewards of doing so.

Third, my impression is that the population in Battlegrounds is generally too low for more specific queues to pop in a timely manner. You also hit the issue that many of the players aren't exactly big on coordination/planning in BGs.

Vaqual

Hey, thanks for the feedback.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think at this stage of the game you'd run into a few challenges:
First, you've got a fair number of quests that involve rather directly interacting with the Daedra. It's going to be a bit awkward if we are aligned with said Daedra and fighting them or aligned with said Daedra and they are ignoring the fact. We also hit some interactions with Aedric aligned groups such as the Order of the Hour.

I also thought about this and made a section for that in the main post.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think at this stage of the game you'd run into a few challenges:
Second, players that min-max will likely feel forced to participate for passive buffs if you aren't really careful about their impact. For example, virtually all of my characters are in the Mage's Guild, Fighter's Guild, and Undaunted. They don't necessarily have any attachment to them from an RP sense but are stuck doing them because of the rewards of doing so.

Yes, I suggested that the benefits are small and cosmetic/RP features for that reason. But if they really crave the power that Boethiah has to offer, they may have to get their hands dirty... (the effort shouldn't be huge)

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think at this stage of the game you'd run into a few challenges
Third, my impression is that the population in Battlegrounds is generally too low for more specific queues to pop in a timely manner. You also hit the issue that many of the players aren't exactly big on coordination/planning in BGs.

This is not intended to shake up PvP on a large scale. The idea is to add some flavor to the BG queue, without subtracting players from the pool. Also, if they have a bad time with that type of BG at least the engagement is short and you are not held hostage by gankers/kill farmers until the non-combat objective is complete. Pops could also be rare, if no defender group can be formed. Of course it can also be fleshed out further, e.g. by adding a relic that will buff the defender, but once it is damaged it debuffs them or so, to add a little bit of objective play or to force groups to break up a bit. But overall it is intended as a quick and thematic combat mode that, offering a quick victory to the winners and a short and painless loss to the losers.

AnduinTryggva

Vaqual wrote: »

This is a concept idea for a larger future update:

It would be cool if Aedra/Daedra worship was a bit more tangible for players in game. I get that you can get the look and RP as whatever you like, but I was thinking of either a buff or skill line based system. I will explain how I roughly imagine both of these systems and afterwards I'll give some suggestions regarding the benefits they could offer. I'll explain it with the Aedra/Daedra concept, but of course other religious concepts are imaginable (e.g. Ancestors).

1. Buff system: Fulfill quests/offer tribute to gain the favour of XY. Receive a permament buff. (Explanation: This is the bare-bones variant.)

2. Skill-Line system: You receive a placeholder skill-line. All skills are locked blanks until you dedicate to a Patron, be it Aedric or Daedric. Swapping your faith resets all progress and can be done only via a ritual (or armory).

Progressing through the ranks could offer semi-generic titles like "Follower/Servant/Acolyte/Harbinger of...". More long term oriented related achievements could offer a more pompous set of Titles, like "Saint" or "Infernal General" or thematic things like this. There could also be "Sanctums/Temples/Covens" for each faith, with rank-locked vendors (offering cosmetics, furnishing or variants of food/drink/potion recipes) or even generic followers ("Priestess of Kyne").

On the combat side I would suggest small, but thematically appropriate effects. It is important that this does not throw another wrench into the gears of balancing. Some examples for the Buff approach:

Selfless Devotee of Mara: Your receive 2 % more healing from your spouse. Your heals are 2 % more effective on your spouse.
True Servant of Molag Bal: Your vampire lord appearance now has Wings and all Vampire abilities deal 2% more damage and cost 2% less resources. Your damage taken from followers of Meridia is increased by 2%.

And one example for the Skill-Line based approach, with Sheogorath theme:

1. Welcome to the Family: Unlocks the Wayshrine in the Shivering Isles Sanctum in ...*. Other followers of Sheogorath will offer their services to you. (Explanation: Baseline Trait)
2. Colorful Demise (passive): Unlocks the chance to play additional (mad) finisher animations, regardless of damage type. (Explanations: Rare chance of turning your enemy into cheese, a goat or butterflies when triggering a finisher animation.
3. Mad Logic (passive): You are becoming as unpredicatable as the Mad God himself. When you deal damage, grant yourself 1 % mitigation against the damage type you used. This buff can occur every 10 s and lasts for 15 s**.

*Placeholder for either an existing lore location or a completely new place
**Of course active abilities could also be implemented here, but that would be considerably more difficult to balance, as they would compete for bar space.

This system should be as non-invasive as possible. There shouldn't be dozens of quest NPCs shoving their pamphlet into your pockets or screaming at you in major cities. Followers could be placed in existing places of worship or new/small temples. They should be distinguishable enough so that the player can seek them out and get started with the Patron-System. The progression would of course most easily be implemented via quests (repeatable and maybe a Mini-Storyline), achievements or tribute/donations. Or even various acts (Stolen from the Companion System).

Some further thoughts & ideas:

• Multiple religions could be thinkable (with limited number (e.g. 2) or by type (e.g. one racial, one shared general)), but conflicting faiths could inflict severe penalties to the progress in another line, making some combinations impossible (e.g. Aedric+Daedric Patron)
• Introducing Group Duels as PvP-feature of the Update. Prove your worth to your Patron!
• Addition of a new battleground PvP map. The layout is always the same, but it is actually a GvG map (not GvGvG). The map style has the look of the defending teams Patron (e.g. Mephala, using existing assets), while the attackers try to breach the defense. Conceptualised as really short hit or miss map, where you can strategize with your team for one all-or-nothing push. Can be part of the general queue, but pops only if homogenous (patron-wise) teams can be formed. Entices grouping up and working together with your fellow cultists, as they will never be your opponents (except when using alts of course).
• Generic ToT-Deck ("Shackles of Devotion") with Card-Skins from your chosen Patron (+Patron-Icon in the Match). (Explanation: Mora could still keep his existing deck. He is smart enough to sponsor 2 Decks.)
• (might be extended based on feedback)

Edit: Dealing with cofllicting, pre-existing content (Base game references to keep it mostly spoiler free):

It would be too much effort to retroactively fit existing content to work with this system. But I think this is actually less of a problem than it seems if you take the following aspects into account:

• A character might not be intending to play certain conflicting content or too devote to a Patron that he is actively campaining against. In this case there is no problem at all, if this is the concept for that specific character.
• Joining of a cult could be chronologically before or after a relevant story chapter. Maybe your character changed his mind? Maybe circumstances forced him to act?
• The machinations of Aedra and Daedra are far too complex to be understood by mortals. Maybe stopping the Planemeld is part of an even bigger plot of the Lord of Schemes, with you as its supreme agent. (Explanation: Progress with a Patron should not be penalized by doing hard to avoid story and world content, only actively pursuing another conflicting Patron should pay you negative progress.)
• Deceiving your Patron can also be part of the RP experience. Maybe a unique one-time quest could be offered by Meridian followers to complete the base game storyline, yielding much more Progress towards Meridia and subtracting a hefty chunk of Molag Bal Progress.
• Of course it would be awesome if your actions could be acknowledged by NPCs via Dialogue of Banter. If you have brought a crushing defeat to your Patron before they could have a line for that, but also acknowledge that you came around again, or that your goals elude them (similar to city guard banter system).

What do you think? Am I missing something? Is this something you would like to see? What is good and what is bad about it? There are a lot of details to flesh out and I think we can get creative here. I didn't want to make a full-concept, I was rather thinking everyone who feels inspired could post what they imagine for their favorite Patron, so that all is written in good faith. I might also add that for myself later.

I would be glad to hear your ideas and maybe even what the Mods/Devs think!

It is a nice idea but I think we need to give people something that reject aedras/daedras too.

I also think this skill line / buff should not be too strong and maybe it also should come with a disadvantage. Otherwise all players will become aedra/daedra worshipper and this would strongly counter the entire world in which whorshipping aedra and even daedra is usually frowned upon or only accepted if it concerns aedras and only done by a minority. As a person from that world most players should dispise daedras and would not seek to become a member of an aedra monastry or order.

Also you should be able to switch patrons.

Vaqual

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I also think this skill line / buff should not be too strong and maybe it also should come with a disadvantage. Otherwise all players will become aedra/daedra worshipper and this would strongly counter the entire world in which whorshipping aedra and even daedra is usually frowned upon or only accepted if it concerns aedras and only done by a minority. As a person from that world most players should dispise daedras and would not seek to become a member of an aedra monastry or order.

Overall the combat relevant buffs shouldn't offer more power than roughly 1 standard stat line set bonus, ideally even less. Typical balancing consideration like uptime, synergy, selectivity and resource cost apply (Explanation: If the Sheogorath buff in the example offers 1 % mitigation against a specific damage type it would still be less effective than a single stat line of armor, which mitigates all damage types). The focus should really be on flavour and cosmetics.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Also you should be able to switch patrons.

I mentioned it only briefly, but the swapping could be done with some kind of ritual that rests the selection or by granting negative progress for pursuing another Patron.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is a nice idea but I think we need to give people something that reject aedras/daedras too.

This is a good point, but it shouldn't come for free and also be linked to some type of quest/achievement/faction system. Maybe something like this "By sweat and blood: The gods have given you nothing, and nothing they shall receive from you. You serve no higher power and you are the master of your own fate. Gain 100 points for a resource stat of your choice (Health, Magicka, Stamina) and 25 pointsof the related recovery stat." I will also include this in the main post.

Or this is also where racial factions could come in, as e.g. Ancestor Worship for Dunmer, Errantry for Breton,etc.

Ultimately this isn't supposed to be a grind for anyone.You should be able to dedicate only to a single or a very small number of Patrons and gain only minute benefits. It should be worthwhile for those that pursue it, but also not force anyone into it, like Undeath currently does.

LanteanPegasus

@AnduinTryggva

this would strongly counter the entire world in which whorshipping aedra and even daedra is usually frowned upon or only accepted if it concerns aedras and only done by a minority

As far as I know, the Nine/Eight Divines are Aedra. And are worshipped far and wide, including cathedrals in quite a few major human cities. The Elves and Khajiit worship different Aedra as well in their cultural religions.
And while there may be those in Tamriel who reject Aedra and Daedra worship both, I'm quite sure they are a minority.
(Or I get my lore confused, and the Aedra aren't who I think they are...)

@Vaqual
I think this is a neat idea, especially if the focus of the "consequences" is more on RP and cosmetics/visuals than combat relevant stats.