Would it be possible to remove gear levels entirely?

Avran_Sylt

I ask because the general consensus is: gear doesn’t matter until you’re cp160.

And not in the sense that you unlock something new at cp160, just that everything below cp160 gets progressively worse stat-wise. That sword that gave 1000 damage now gives 500.

This means that if you research the game ahead of time, you don’t really start thinking about sets as you obtain them in the introductory narratives. And it’s just a rush to get to a point of relevance.

It also means that any unique gear set pieces you get initially simply get worse as you progress.

(And also it makes gearing for leveling an alt just a bit more tedious).

I just wonder how material tiers would be handled if this ever came to pass.

SilverBride

Interesting idea. But would this mean all lower level crafting mats would be removed, because there would no longer be a need for them?

DrNukenstein

Make it happen. The ride to cp160 is the tutorial. Item level does not matter past the tutorial.

Soarora

It would be nice if armor scaled to your level. I think removing the lower tiers of materials would be bad because people would get mad, but converting them into rubedite doesn’t work either. So, there would have to be a new use for them. Maybe decorative furnishings or craftable accessories?

Necrotech_Master

the gear "gets worse" stat wise because its lower lvl gear, if you are cp160 you shouldnt be using a lvl 40 item anymore

theres plenty you can do with gear below lvl 50, and it does heavily matter if you are actually trying to min-max sub 50 pvp, or if you are trying to optimize your xp gains, or play with different gear sets to try it out while your lvling

i dont really see a huge reason to remove levels on gear necessarily because the 1-50 game is pretty short especially if your just powerleveling to begin with

the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

Ph1p

Item levels are a means for game designers to steer player progression. Instead of taking this away and upending the crafting system in the process, I would - if at all - suggest adding a way to upgrade item levels at a crafting station, similar to how you upgrade item quality today.

DrNukenstein

Soarora wrote: »

It would be nice if armor scaled to your level. I think removing the lower tiers of materials would be bad because people would get mad, but converting them into rubedite doesn’t work either. So, there would have to be a new use for them. Maybe decorative furnishings or craftable accessories?

I don't think anyone would get mad at freeing up 9 skill points and consolidating materials.... Unless they're playing the dwarven ore market.

SilverBride

The different tiers of crafting materials could still be used to craft furnishings.

SilverBride

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

...the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

Mythic gear could be the exception and still require CP 160. They already have restrictions, such as only being able to slot one mythic item at a time, so it would make sense to keep their current restrictions. The gear itself wouldn't have a level, but the character would need to be high enough level to use them.

Ugrak

Alternatively an optional level skip for alts after the account reaches champion points could achieve the same. Similar to how you can choose to skip the tutorial.

SilverBride

This is how I could see this working:

• Gear would no longer have levels.
• The stats on the gear would scale to the player's level and cap out at CP 160.
• Mythic gear would still require CP 160 to equip.
• The lower tiers of crafting mats would be used in crafting furnishings.

Tandor

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the gear "gets worse" stat wise because its lower lvl gear, if you are cp160 you shouldnt be using a lvl 40 item anymore

theres plenty you can do with gear below lvl 50, and it does heavily matter if you are actually trying to min-max sub 50 pvp, or if you are trying to optimize your xp gains, or play with different gear sets to try it out while your lvling

i dont really see a huge reason to remove levels on gear necessarily because the 1-50 game is pretty short especially if your just powerleveling to begin with

the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

It's also a substantial part of the game if you're not power-levelling, and are interested in progression throughout your character development and not just interested in the meta set in "endgame". It shouldn't be interfered with.

Necrotech_Master

Tandor wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the gear "gets worse" stat wise because its lower lvl gear, if you are cp160 you shouldnt be using a lvl 40 item anymore

theres plenty you can do with gear below lvl 50, and it does heavily matter if you are actually trying to min-max sub 50 pvp, or if you are trying to optimize your xp gains, or play with different gear sets to try it out while your lvling

i dont really see a huge reason to remove levels on gear necessarily because the 1-50 game is pretty short especially if your just powerleveling to begin with

the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

It's also a substantial part of the game if you're not power-levelling, and are interested in progression throughout your character development and not just interested in the meta set in "endgame". It shouldn't be interfered with.

agreed with that, if your tryin to play the game as an actual RPG

Nestor

Back in the days when this game was being developed, it was expected by the Devs that players would take months to get to Level 50. Then they found out people play MMORPGs like an MMORPG. Players were leveling in days or weeks. Especially Alts.

One of the things sacrificed on the Alter of Leveling was Material Ranks. Shame, as the lower tier materials are the best for the dyes. And, the original racial styles would change at various tiers. I frequently make outfits in lower level material tiers. For example, Argonian Medium at level 30 is one of the most attractive female armors, especially dyed a Teal color. Simply Exquisite.

Sparxlost

The PROBLEM is that there is no way to conveniently turn a level 1 item into a level 160 item.

you might have a preferred set piece with good roll that could take you ACTUAL WEEKS to farm at a higher level..

RIP my god-roll sanctuary resto farm. pls add a reforging tab to craft benches.

Foxxal

I wouldn't mind this at all. A big problem with onboarding new players is they get overwhelmed with loot that they then never use again after 10 minutes of playtime because they've instantly levelled past it. It also makes making training gear for new players super annoying as you have to replace their set every 10 levels. I've had a surplus of new players coming in trying to do builds they saw online that made them want to play, and being told they can't do anything except play inventor simulator 9000 immediately turns them off of the game.

I do a ton of market stuff, crafting stuff, and housing, and I'd have zero issue with removing levelled gear, the market would adjust very quickly.

Necrotech_Master

Sparxlost wrote: »

The PROBLEM is that there is no way to conveniently turn a level 1 item into a level 160 item.

you might have a preferred set piece with good roll that could take you ACTUAL WEEKS to farm at a higher level..

RIP my god-roll sanctuary resto farm. pls add a reforging tab to craft benches.

with the game nowadays you just recreate in what trait you want, no need to farm

not to mention theres not really a thing like "god rolls" in this game as all stat pieces are pretty fixed based on the quality of the piece, getting a drop in the right trait was basically the "best" you could hope for (before reconstruction was a thing)

Avran_Sylt

SilverBride wrote: »

Interesting idea. But would this mean all lower level crafting mats would be removed, because there would no longer be a need for them?

It would be nice if trait crafting materials were removed, and instead the crafting material used were what determined the trait. (Though this would need a system re-balance of where and how certain materials are sourced)

Failing that maybe they would add a new functionality, or add inherit stat bonuses that can be overridden with enchantments.

And failing that removed entirely. (Though I'd rather not have that)

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the gear "gets worse" stat wise because its lower lvl gear, if you are cp160 you shouldnt be using a lvl 40 item anymore

theres plenty you can do with gear below lvl 50, and it does heavily matter if you are actually trying to min-max sub 50 pvp, or if you are trying to optimize your xp gains, or play with different gear sets to try it out while your lvling

i dont really see a huge reason to remove levels on gear necessarily because the 1-50 game is pretty short especially if your just powerleveling to begin with

the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

Min-maxing sub-50 PvP harms noobs, I agree. And this should hopefully help the players that aren't powerleveling..

On the topic of sub-50 PvP and twinks, outside of retrofitting sub-50 to be no sets at all (Battlegrounds Fundamentals Queue), the only counterpoint I do see is the mythic issue, which perhaps can be solved by disabling mythics in sub-50 pvp.

Regarding powerleveling: I don't think that having a looming sense of "you're being inefficient with your own starting time and rewards if you don't" is a good thing if gearsets play a large part in ESO.

Regarding maximization of XP gains (multiple gearsets of varying levels with training), that's the introduction of a problem to provide a solution. And a new player might fall into the trap of utilizing XP gear they pick up that falls off in effectiveness with a reduction to clear time/survivability.

Ph1p wrote: »

Item levels are a means for game designers to steer player progression. Instead of taking this away and upending the crafting system in the process, I would - if at all - suggest adding a way to upgrade item levels at a crafting station, similar to how you upgrade item quality today.

I agree, if your game doesn't have alternative sources of more engaging methods of player progression. (We have the sticker book, unlockable skill lines, skyshards for skill points, motifs, dyes, unlockables, etc)

Though if removing item levels is too much effort, being able to upgrade item level using the respective resource actually sounds like a good idea, as it would also tie into the crafting system and that form of player progression as well.

Ugrak wrote: »

Alternatively an optional level skip for alts after the account reaches champion points could achieve the same. Similar to how you can choose to skip the tutorial.

Unfortunately that doesn't address the new player experience.

Tandor wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the gear "gets worse" stat wise because its lower lvl gear, if you are cp160 you shouldnt be using a lvl 40 item anymore

theres plenty you can do with gear below lvl 50, and it does heavily matter if you are actually trying to min-max sub 50 pvp, or if you are trying to optimize your xp gains, or play with different gear sets to try it out while your lvling

i dont really see a huge reason to remove levels on gear necessarily because the 1-50 game is pretty short especially if your just powerleveling to begin with

the other reason i doubt they will remove gear levels is that stuff like mythics requires cp160 to use, as they are gear items, if you removed the level requirement you could slot up a lvl 3 toon with fully kitted out trials gear + mythic, which would likely destroy all balance they had in the sub 50 cyro (they already have problems with people specifically making new toons, twinking them out with top end gold gear, including obtaining sub-50 monster sets from IC (the only possibly place right now you can get monster sets under lvl 50)

It's also a substantial part of the game if you're not power-levelling, and are interested in progression throughout your character development and not just interested in the meta set in "endgame". It shouldn't be interfered with.

Were this a purely single-player RPG I would agree. However with the group play systems you can encounter scenarios where your normalized stats in a group make you more effective, and then when you go back to solo play you're weaker.

Nestor wrote: »

Back in the days when this game was being developed, it was expected by the Devs that players would take months to get to Level 50. Then they found out people play MMORPGs like an MMORPG. Players were leveling in days or weeks. Especially Alts.

One of the things sacrificed on the Alter of Leveling was Material Ranks. Shame, as the lower tier materials are the best for the dyes. And, the original racial styles would change at various tiers. I frequently make outfits in lower level material tiers. For example, Argonian Medium at level 30 is one of the most attractive female armors, especially dyed a Teal color. Simply Exquisite.

That seems more like an opinion on outfit/dye variations, which we do have access to in the outfitting station (I use the lower tier material dyes myself for some outfits too). And for all intents and purposes the light/medium/heavy designations for new motifs can act as Lvl 1/30/50 variations. Even if that leveling system never changed I highly doubt they'd have kept up with 9 different outfit variations for a single motif over 3.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

The PROBLEM is that there is no way to conveniently turn a level 1 item into a level 160 item.

you might have a preferred set piece with good roll that could take you ACTUAL WEEKS to farm at a higher level..

RIP my god-roll sanctuary resto farm. pls add a reforging tab to craft benches.

with the game nowadays you just recreate in what trait you want, no need to farm

not to mention theres not really a thing like "god rolls" in this game as all stat pieces are pretty fixed based on the quality of the piece, getting a drop in the right trait was basically the "best" you could hope for (before reconstruction was a thing)

To recreate the item you still need to have farmed it (most notable on weapons/jewelry). But certainly it's deterministic now instead of statistically allowing an impossibility to acquire something.

Avran_Sylt

After reading these comments, I think the simplest solution (that would also tie in with adding to a sense of player progression and agency) would be to allow players to upgrade the level of acquired gear based on their respective crafting skill so long as they have the needed materials for the next level tier of item.

Soarora

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

It would be nice if armor scaled to your level. I think removing the lower tiers of materials would be bad because people would get mad, but converting them into rubedite doesn’t work either. So, there would have to be a new use for them. Maybe decorative furnishings or craftable accessories?

I don't think anyone would get mad at freeing up 9 skill points and consolidating materials.... Unless they're playing the dwarven ore market.

People get mad at everything, realistically.

Nestor

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

That seems more like an opinion on outfit/dye variations, which we do have access to in the outfitting station (I use the lower tier material dyes myself for some outfits too). And for all intents and purposes the light/medium/heavy designations for new motifs can act as Lvl 1/30/50 variations. Even if that leveling system never changed I highly doubt they'd have kept up with 9 different outfit variations for a single motif over 3.

https://eso-motifs.mmo-fashion.com/style-search-filter/?f=armor&ptb-search=1&ptb_style[]=argonian&ptb_armor_weight[]=medium

There were up to 4 Tiers of changes for the Original Motifs. This got abandoned with Motif #16 and Above. I used to look forward to seeing the different variations as I leveled up my characters. Now, as you said, I use the Outfit Station to Craft different Looks. for the first year or so, it was the only way to get a Mini Skirt on a Female Character.

Treeshka

I think we are too deep into the game now to change that.

BXR_Lonestar

Soarora wrote: »

It would be nice if armor scaled to your level. I think removing the lower tiers of materials would be bad because people would get mad, but converting them into rubedite doesn’t work either. So, there would have to be a new use for them. Maybe decorative furnishings or craftable accessories?

I say just consolidate them into the top-end crafting materials. This will make it so that there are less items for the game to track, and maybe - just maybe - server performance would improve.

Kite42

The whole crafting system is borked. Out of 10 tiers of material, 4 can't even be used really since they fall into the hole between level 50 and cp 160.

When did you last craft heavy armour in Calcinium (cp 10-30), Galatite (cp 40-60) , Quicksilver (cp still reading?) or Voidsteel?

Actually, when did you last even recall Galatite was a thing?

It would be so much better if crafting was a whole chain of items like pommels, buckles etc that were put together to make finished items. Crafter's could be just solo tradesmen, or cogs in complex vertically integrated crafting guild chains...

Or we could all just press a button, hand over 30 rubedite and collect 700 bucks I guess. Cool.