Detect pots shouldn't reveal players in crouch

Avran_Sylt

I just don't know why they do. Everyone says it's to "combat cloak", but it also inadvertently nerfs the basic stealth feature in the game.

Dagoth_Rac

Detect pots are not to combat cloak. They are to combat stealth. Cloak is just one way to enter stealth. Being able to go invisible and attack players unseen is very powerful and needs a counter, regardless of exactly how the player has gone hidden.

Avran_Sylt

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Detect pots are not to combat cloak. They are to combat stealth. Cloak is just one way to enter stealth. Being able to go invisible and attack players unseen is very powerful and needs a counter, regardless of exactly how the player has gone hidden.

Stealth is mostly used for positioning and avoiding combat. However, once you attack out of stealth, you can't re-enter it easily as long as your opponent sticks to you. Especially in open zones. (At least I am fairly certain that your ability to re-enter stealth from crouch is diminished once you enter combat). Cloak does counteract that, and is a prime example of why HOW a player enters stealth matters, not simply just that they can.

Getting the opening shot does give some advantage (much less now, ever since the removal of crit from crouch, as well as stun from ranged stealth attack(that part I agree with)), but can be mitigated with a subsequent block/healing.

Engaging from stealth isn't some kind of guaranteed win condition. Your available burst/attrition against your opponents is the deciding factor.

If you're taking an objective, you can hold block while taking it.

If you're in a group, the other players can help heal and punish.

StarOfElyon

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Detect pots are not to combat cloak. They are to combat stealth. Cloak is just one way to enter stealth. Being able to go invisible and attack players unseen is very powerful and needs a counter, regardless of exactly how the player has gone hidden.

Stealth is mostly used for positioning and avoiding combat. However, once you attack out of stealth, you can't re-enter it easily as long as your opponent sticks to you. Especially in open zones. (At least I am fairly certain that your ability to re-enter stealth from crouch is diminished once you enter combat). Cloak does counteract that, and is a prime example of why HOW a player enters stealth matters, not simply just that they can.

Getting the opening shot does give some advantage (much less now, ever since the removal of crit from crouch, as well as stun from ranged stealth attack(that part I agree with)), but can be mitigated with a subsequent block/healing.

Engaging from stealth isn't some kind of guaranteed win condition. Your available burst/attrition against your opponents is the deciding factor.

If you're taking an objective, you can hold block while taking it.

If you're in a group, the other players can help heal and punish.

If someone is invisible, detect potions should DETECT them.

Avran_Sylt

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Detect pots are not to combat cloak. They are to combat stealth. Cloak is just one way to enter stealth. Being able to go invisible and attack players unseen is very powerful and needs a counter, regardless of exactly how the player has gone hidden.

Stealth is mostly used for positioning and avoiding combat. However, once you attack out of stealth, you can't re-enter it easily as long as your opponent sticks to you. Especially in open zones. (At least I am fairly certain that your ability to re-enter stealth from crouch is diminished once you enter combat). Cloak does counteract that, and is a prime example of why HOW a player enters stealth matters, not simply just that they can.

Getting the opening shot does give some advantage (much less now, ever since the removal of crit from crouch, as well as stun from ranged stealth attack(that part I agree with)), but can be mitigated with a subsequent block/healing.

Engaging from stealth isn't some kind of guaranteed win condition. Your available burst/attrition against your opponents is the deciding factor.

If you're taking an objective, you can hold block while taking it.

If you're in a group, the other players can help heal and punish.

If someone is invisible, detect potions should DETECT them.

So long as UI elements exist to indicate faction that hover above a players head (removing subterfuge and information obscurity) invisibility is a stand in.

Though I'd love it if there were pots that swapped your alliance appearance for a duration. (With invisibility at a distance to remove metagame gameplay)

SaffronCitrusflower

I think detect pots should reveal everyone in the range of the pot. They have a 45 second cool down, so we should get our investment out of them.

Avran_Sylt

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I think detect pots should reveal everyone in the range of the pot. They have a 45 second cool down, so we should get our investment out of them.

A 45 second (individual) cooldown to potentially cause minutes worth of traversal for the spotted party after getting killed. An investment that casual players usually won't take. An investment that serves simply to snowball established players.

It's a pubstomp tool.

Kartalin

There has to be counterplay for balance to exist. Staying in stealth is fine, but there are a variety of tools for pulling people out of stealth. This is how it should be. I'm curious as to why you would like to remain in stealth and not be detected if you're going to be around enemy players but not attacking them.

ItsNotLiving

Stealth detection potions shouldn’t detect players in stealth that’s a new one.

Avran_Sylt

Kartalin wrote: »

There has to be counterplay for balance to exist. Staying in stealth is fine, but there are a variety of tools for pulling people out of stealth. This is how it should be. I'm curious as to why you would like to remain in stealth and not be detected if you're going to be around enemy players but not attacking them.

I've never said I want to remain in stealth around players (but I would like to approach to melee range on a player).

But with detect pots you don't really get to be in stealth in the first place: Player A pops a pot, and if player B is within a 45m range of player A, they're screwed.

You get players rotating pots on a point, popping a pot to canvas an area, even players in stealth canvasing an area popping a pot to get a gank. (because for whatever reason detect pots are unique in that they don't remove you from stealth compared to all other detection sources)

It's quite often used proactively rather than reactively, and with such a large range it has too significant counterplay to the point that stealth doesn't exist to begin with when it's used effectively.

Avran_Sylt

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stealth detection potions shouldn’t detect players in stealth that’s a new one.

Well, why can't I wear an enemy alliances colors and appear as friendly to an opponent, to either engage or disengage.

SpacemanSpiff1

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stealth detection potions shouldn’t detect players in stealth that’s a new one.

Well, why can't I wear an enemy alliances colors and appear as friendly to an opponent, to either engage or disengage.

why would that be a thing?

StarOfElyon

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

There has to be counterplay for balance to exist. Staying in stealth is fine, but there are a variety of tools for pulling people out of stealth. This is how it should be. I'm curious as to why you would like to remain in stealth and not be detected if you're going to be around enemy players but not attacking them.

I've never said I want to remain in stealth around players (but I would like to approach to melee range on a player).

That's called ganking. You want to be able to gank players who are using detects meant to counter ganking.

Avran_Sylt

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Stealth detection potions shouldn’t detect players in stealth that’s a new one.

Well, why can't I wear an enemy alliances colors and appear as friendly to an opponent, to either engage or disengage.

why would that be a thing?

Because stealth and subterfuge is a playstyle?

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

There has to be counterplay for balance to exist. Staying in stealth is fine, but there are a variety of tools for pulling people out of stealth. This is how it should be. I'm curious as to why you would like to remain in stealth and not be detected if you're going to be around enemy players but not attacking them.

I've never said I want to remain in stealth around players (but I would like to approach to melee range on a player).

That's called ganking. You want to be able to gank players who are using detects meant to counter ganking.

I am not against defenses against ganks. However detect pots are so overtuned and so feast/famine both in effectiveness and availability that it's an absolute mess.

Oblivion_Protocol

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I am not against defenses against ganks. However detect pots are so overtuned and so feast/famine both in effectiveness and availability that it's an absolute mess.

As someone who ganks regularly and frequents IC, I can say that detect pots are the first line of defense against ganking. And ganking, as a playstyle, is so effective and deadly, that you almost need an overtuned response to it. If you can kill me by pressing three buttons and there’s almost nothing I can do about it, why would I want to continue engaging with the game?

Avran_Sylt

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I am not against defenses against ganks. However detect pots are so overtuned and so feast/famine both in effectiveness and availability that it's an absolute mess.

As someone who ganks regularly and frequents IC, I can say that detect pots are the first line of defense against ganking. And ganking, as a playstyle, is so effective and deadly, that you almost need an overtuned response to it. If you can kill me by pressing three buttons and there’s almost nothing I can do about it, why would I want to continue engaging with the game?

I agree with that sentiment. Though I disagree that preemptive measures should be behind a potion instead of gearing/abilities/grouping. At the very least not with its current range of a 45m radius (that also pierces base sneaking for any class, which is my pain point)

reazea

Huh? You think that a potion designed to perform a specific task shouldn't perform that task?

Avran_Sylt

reazea wrote: »

Huh? You think that a potion designed to perform a specific task shouldn't perform that task?

I’m thinking more about the gameplay design intent involved with the associated abilities and skills and what gameplay it provides.

If I use your logic then I would also ask why something that says it makes me invisible doesn’t actually make me invisible, is that a bug? Must be. We reach a point of contradiction loops through adherence to basic semantics rather than viewing the larger situation.

CameraBeardThePirate

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Huh? You think that a potion designed to perform a specific task shouldn't perform that task?

I’m thinking more about the gameplay design intent involved with the associated abilities and skills and what gameplay it provides.

If I use your logic then I would also ask why something that says it makes me invisible doesn’t actually make me invisible, is that a bug? Must be. We reach a point of contradiction loops through adherence to basic semantics rather than viewing the larger situation.

You're using buzzwords to make it seem like you're making sense, but you aren't.

Stealth and Invisibility make a player invisible to other players, unless they have stealth detection.

Without stealth detection pots revealing players, there would be little-to-no counterplay against players that wait in stealth in an enemy keep to revive their friends over and over again. There'd be little to no counterplay to gankers that wait at the doors of IC for players to interact with the door.

You're literally asking for the counter to an already very powerful effect to be removed, and then acting flabbergasted when people are telling you it's a bad idea.

DrNukenstein

Detect pots should not reveal players in crouch to other players that did not drink the detect pot.

Avran_Sylt

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Huh? You think that a potion designed to perform a specific task shouldn't perform that task?

I’m thinking more about the gameplay design intent involved with the associated abilities and skills and what gameplay it provides.

If I use your logic then I would also ask why something that says it makes me invisible doesn’t actually make me invisible, is that a bug? Must be. We reach a point of contradiction loops through adherence to basic semantics rather than viewing the larger situation.

You're using buzzwords to make it seem like you're making sense, but you aren't.

Stealth and Invisibility make a player invisible to other players, unless they have stealth detection.

Without stealth detection pots revealing players, there would be little-to-no counterplay against players that wait in stealth in an enemy keep to revive their friends over and over again. There'd be little to no counterplay to gankers that wait at the doors of IC for players to interact with the door.

You're literally asking for the counter to an already very powerful effect to be removed, and then acting flabbergasted when people are telling you it's a bad idea.

Dude, much like you're using buzzwords:

Invisibility means Invisibility.

Detect means detect.

Am I invisible if I am not invisible? Am I detecting if I do not detect?

Do not simply use the definition of a word as an excuse.

If you want counter-play against keep rezzes, introduce the absolutely unthinkable mechanic of force despawning an enemy opponent: When targeting a slain enemy, you can capture their soul in an empty soul gem, preventing a rez and filling a soul gem. This could also be helpful against ball groups too.

Address door tech by applying the shield upon door interaction so you can hold block before getting to saftey.

Stealth is a powerful effect but the pots are so overtuned and exclusive that it only serves elitist players with the resources to obtain them at no expense to their build so they can be as tanky/damaging as they want while having the option to completely eradicate a playstyle across so much more of the game than just those scenarios.

StarOfElyon

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Detect pots should not reveal players in crouch to other players that did not drink the detect pot.

Ok I'll give you that one.

Avran_Sylt

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Detect pots should not reveal players in crouch to other players that did not drink the detect pot.

They don't work like Piercing Mark?

sharquez

The game isn't going to change profoundly to accommodate these suggestions. It would be more useful to understand the mechanics and play around them.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think that the biggest issue with detect potion is that you can use them and still remain in stealth / cloak yourself. It leads to a very "game breaking" situations, especially in oversaturated / overcrowded areas like IC.

The other issue that I can think of is that you give vision of a stealthed player to everyone. Skills like Revealing Flare or Mage light that break invisibility/stealth should do that, but Detect potions are just potions. You drink them. Cloaked player does not drink them. It does not even make sense from a logical standpoint. How one person drinking a potion is able to affect other person ability to cast spells & prohibit them from doing so ? ? ? It does not make sense. If I drink a magic potion that makes me invisible, then by that logic every one around me should also become invisible lol.

So, it should give you something like "Detect Life" effect from other TES games so that you & only you could see the invisible target and allow you to attack it with direct damage skill, so that it would be revealed to everyone (stealth/cloak is broken after taking direct damage).

Avran_Sylt

sharquez wrote: »

The game isn't going to change profoundly to accommodate these suggestions. It would be more useful to understand the mechanics and play around them.

I would agree with you if there wasn't a clear-cut singular path forward when playing around with the mechanics: health/sustain/resistance stacking (it's less playing around with the mechanics too, just what is the most optimal). The current survival threshold for these kinds of builds don't even need to utilize Pheonix-like sets to cause even the strongest (1v1) burst gank to rely on crit-fishing, and slotting radiant magelight prevents the possibility of a gank entirely for those builds (so long as the other person isn't afk), with any gank being impossible against someone with that kind of build who is simply holding block. All the while being able to 1vX as they, just like gankers, prey on non-competitive players. Detect pots just mean they get to 1vX even more effectively, hold points with more security, expose other players with more ease, all without changing their build and at the press of a button. While the non-competitive players don't even bother using the pots.

Pre-combat the current detect pots simply serve to make life harder for non-competitive players, reduce the ways in which you can approach an encounter, and amplify ganking by allowing invisible players to reveal everyone withing a massive radius of themselves while still being invisible themselves.

DrNukenstein

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

They don't work like Piercing Mark?

detect pots do the following, and they're great for what they do. You can even make single effect ones for dirt cheap, perfect for respectable builds that include a source of Major Sorc/Brut.

-Reveal all crouched or non cloak invisible players on different factions/teams to all players on your faction within 45 meters for a full 15 seconds

-Reveal cloak users to the user of the potion within 45 meters for a full 15 seconds

Even without the potions, crouch doesn't seem like it works as good as it used to. I've had a big uptick in the number of players charging me from across room while I'm crouching with the closed eye the past few patches... either that or those toxic target markers show through crouch.

Avran_Sylt

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

They don't work like Piercing Mark?

detect pots do the following, and they're great for what they do. You can even make single effect ones for dirt cheap, perfect for respectable builds that include a source of Major Sorc/Brut.

-Reveal all crouched or non cloak invisible players on different factions/teams to all players on your faction within 45 meters for a full 15 seconds

-Reveal cloak users to the user of the potion within 45 meters for a full 15 seconds

Even without the potions, crouch doesn't seem like it works as good as it used to. I've had a big uptick in the number of players charging me from across room while I'm crouching with the closed eye the past few patches... either that or those toxic target markers show through crouch.

Side note, if you sweat so hard that you're using the skull in pub BG's you need to go touch grass.

Well, I guess that explains why I've gotten charged while invisible by a guy with no eye above their head: Probably had an ally that was sneaking and had a detect potion popped.

Kartalin

@Avran_Sylt you should have been running a detect pot when I ganked you twice earlier this week with a vateshran snipe, poison injection and tarnished nightmare proc. No ultimate needed. Also maybe run more than 20k health.

BRK mine and again inside the keep.

SkaraMinoc

Stealthblades have it bad.

Detect pots
Conspicuous Poison
Camo Hunter / Mage Light
Structured Entropy
Haunting Curse
Ice Comet
Whirling Blades

too many to list here

Avran_Sylt

Kartalin wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt you should have been running a detect pot when I ganked you twice earlier this week with a vateshran snipe, poison injection and tarnished nightmare proc. No ultimate needed. Also maybe run more than 20k health.

BRK mine and again inside the keep.

I don’t use them out of principle ( it’s not like the people I’d reveal with them are the kinds of targets I’m going for anyway). Thanks for providing an example of how gankers are using them just as effectively as an offensive camping tool at range. (At least I think this was in reference to the bow gankers camping a point with pots, that’s the only one I remember fully).

I’m running divines 2H melee flame blossom/tarnished magicka monostat medium with Merc/Cloak/Frenzy/Brawler/Swallow/Berserker.

I don’t expect good survivability, especially when I all-in. I’m going for a single-target glass cannon build.

My personal issue being that detect pots don’t really give much breathing room for melee ganking, with several other issues arising out of its use for total shutdown of external invisibility in such a large radius, it’s ease of insertion into any build, but at the same time the time/gold invested needed to maintain a consistent supply dissuading many more casual players touching them (that also reinforces their use for more invested players).