Melee vs Range in PVP

Durham

Currently, Im seeing almost no two-handers. You will still see some duel wield however even that is limited to duel wield master weapon setup. Currently and even in the last patch range is supreme! Why equip melee when you can get the same damage if not more with ranged abilities, with safety of range?

I would like to see more of a balance here! Last night 90% of the players I fought had a staff or bow on Blackreach.

moo_2021

DW is no longer popular in BG since Stinging Slashes was destroyed in U41. I noticed without that some of my former foes aren't dangerous anymore

2H swing has been very rare, almost as rare as bash builds now.

Other than bash or cloaking, I don't see any option of melee weapons for one bar. DPS is low since you can't constantly hit, no speed bonus, no resistance bonus while exposing to damage all the time.

Also, since more and more people are ranged, often my teammates can't or won't provide any meaningful support for melee, as they prefer to stay at maximum distance.

taugrim

It's always been the case that melee can be challenging. You get shot at on the way in and when running away. But good melee players can wreak havoc on opponents.

It's why I've often favored melee builds and classes across various MMORPGs. Some RDPS can't handle a melee pressuring them heavily. And you can't let good RDPS freecast or they'll wreak you and your friendlies.

moo_2021 wrote: »

DW is no longer popular in BG since Stinging Slashes was destroyed in U41. I noticed without that some of my former foes aren't dangerous anymore

2H swing has been very rare, almost as rare as bash builds now.

Plenty of players in high MMR are still using Perfected Stinging Slashes. The damage was rightfully nerfed so that it scaled, but it's still good for high damage builds.

I see a fair number of Wardens and Sorcs running 2H Swing. It's still good. It's just that there are other viable spammable options.

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

HowlKimchi

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

Agreed, my brother is running a bash build and it's surprisingly potent at bursting people down, and has decent pressure. We discussed his build and it seems to be doable with any class. Probably the most viable build for necros even. I wonder why it isn't more common.

Turtle_Bot

HowlKimchi wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

Agreed, my brother is running a bash build and it's surprisingly potent at bursting people down, and has decent pressure. We discussed his build and it seems to be doable with any class. Probably the most viable build for necros even. I wonder why it isn't more common.

My guess is that because bash builds got a huge nerf many patches ago and no real noticeable direct buffs, most just gave up on them and aren't exploring the options for those builds.

Take destro staff for example, that weapon type was barely seen in PvP 2+ years ago with DW/2h being everywhere, then ZOS directly buffed ele sus and destro staff is now everywhere as people realised how strong it could get with specific setups. It wasn't horrible back then and those same setups (minus ele sus) being ran now could still do well back then, but because it didn't have that direct buff, most just ignored it as a meme/zerg weapon despite the only thing that changed was ele sus.

My guess is that DW will fall off a bit due to the MDW adjustments, 2h will remain niche for those who know how to use it effectively and destro/bow will remain fotm until ZOS does a direct buff to something in 2h or DW.

HowlKimchi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

Agreed, my brother is running a bash build and it's surprisingly potent at bursting people down, and has decent pressure. We discussed his build and it seems to be doable with any class. Probably the most viable build for necros even. I wonder why it isn't more common.

My guess is that because bash builds got a huge nerf many patches ago and no real noticeable direct buffs, most just gave up on them and aren't exploring the options for those builds.

Take destro staff for example, that weapon type was barely seen in PvP 2+ years ago with DW/2h being everywhere, then ZOS directly buffed ele sus and destro staff is now everywhere as people realised how strong it could get with specific setups. It wasn't horrible back then and those same setups (minus ele sus) being ran now could still do well back then, but because it didn't have that direct buff, most just ignored it as a meme/zerg weapon despite the only thing that changed was ele sus.

My guess is that DW will fall off a bit due to the MDW adjustments, 2h will remain niche for those who know how to use it effectively and destro/bow will remain fotm until ZOS does a direct buff to something in 2h or DW.

Yeah I recall the nerf to the passive as I was actively playing at the time. I think they buffed power slam to be considered bash damage in that same patch too. Unless there were other nerfs from that time to U40 which is when I started playing again then yeah, I it's definitely viable but not fotm.

Zabulus

still playing DW here. Magblade main.

xylena_lazarow

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective

They're somewhat difficult to play given the way bash spamming kills your mobility, and how building for it makes anything other than bash relatively weak. A well played bash build is very hard to melee against, especially if they know their stun combo, they're always basically guaranteed to chunk you every time you get in close, you definitely don't want to stay in bash range. If you don't know how to fight against a well played bash build, they will kill you quickly.

However, once you figure this out, you can hit-and-run with dots and/or pressure them from range, they'll start melting while they can't even hit you. They're not as tanky as they look, they're soft to dots and easy to chip into kill range. I'd be curious how any bash players are handling ranged mag sorcs right now, looks like a horrible matchup for the bash player.

If a player has the skill to do well on a bash build, that same player would be even better on a meta build. Bash builds give up too much consistency and versatility to make the gimmick worth it, even if it looks incredibly strong in some scenarios.

Kartalin

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

However, once you figure this out, you can hit-and-run with dots and/or pressure them from range, they'll start melting while they can't even hit you. They're not as tanky as they look, they're soft to dots and easy to chip into kill range. I'd be curious how any bash players are handling ranged mag sorcs right now, looks like a horrible matchup for the bash player.

I usually slot the S&B gap closer on a bash build for mobility, and I also tend to use it on a warden so I have the wings there as well, and the netch for occasional purges. Against sorcs that just streak away, I don't see any point on engaging them on their terms, so I don't really pursue unless it's at an objective.

Major_Toughness

Some people, myself included, have always preferred range. It has not always been viable, but status effect buffs have made Force Pulse/Crushing Shock better. Combined with Asylum staff it is giga damage.

So you are likely to see more ranged builds.

Combined with magsorc returning to the best class in PvP after a few years off, everyone is playing it again.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Combined with magsorc returning to the best class in PvP after a few years off, everyone is playing it again.

The problem is that if a ranged damage build is BIS in pvp, melee itself becomes obsolete, the meta is warped.

Kinda like how, you know, swords disappeared after guns became meta.

taugrim

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective

They're somewhat difficult to play given the way bash spamming kills your mobility, and how building for it makes anything other than bash relatively weak. A well played bash build is very hard to melee against, especially if they know their stun combo, they're always basically guaranteed to chunk you every time you get in close, you definitely don't want to stay in bash range. If you don't know how to fight against a well played bash build, they will kill you quickly.

Most of the competent bash players I've seen run Shielded Assault. So they can close distance at will, and when it lands, you'll get chunked by burst.

Skara Minoc used to run a Bashsorc build that would go 20-0 in BGs pretty consistently.

I think Bash builds have gotten a bit easier to play with the (merited IMO) increase in range from 5m to 7m for melee attacks. 5m felt too restrictive but 7m really makes staying in damage range much easier.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective

However, once you figure this out, you can hit-and-run with dots and/or pressure them from range, they'll start melting while they can't even hit you. They're not as tanky as they look, they're soft to dots and easy to chip into kill range. I'd be curious how any bash players are handling ranged mag sorcs right now, looks like a horrible matchup for the bash player.

That's an option if you've built for ranged attacks.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective

I'd be curious how any bash players are handling ranged mag sorcs right now, looks like a horrible matchup for the bash player.

Magsorcs are nasty for melees in general with over-buff to Hardened Ward. They can handle your burst and if needed can always get away.

NyassaV

Unless we are counting gankers and your average zergling the only class that can do a ranged build all that well is sorc. Ranged magblade is vastly inferior to DW despite how much I love it. Mag Warden isn't as much ranged as it is midrange due to the fact shalks makes it so you need to be close to your target.

moo_2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective

They're somewhat difficult to play given the way bash spamming kills your mobility,

It doesn't if you bind interrupt to a key itself.

I have permanent major expedition on plus minor expedition for nb. Chasing is simply sprinting (vampire stage 4) + gap closer spam. It's not great but very often I'm the only one who can chase target in BGs.


The meta is just too hard and grindy for newbies like me. My builds are one bar, need no trial or arena set (never finished nVH) and bash is a slot-free skill itself. It's the cheapest build.

Durham

Yea I have not seen a bash build yet.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Combined with magsorc returning to the best class in PvP after a few years off, everyone is playing it again.

The problem is that if a ranged damage build is BIS in pvp, melee itself becomes obsolete, the meta is warped.

Kinda like how, you know, swords disappeared after guns became meta.

I think this sums it up currently.

xylena_lazarow

taugrim wrote: »

Most of the competent bash players I've seen run Shielded Assault. So they can close distance at will, and when it lands, you'll get chunked by burst. Skara Minoc used to run a Bashsorc build that would go 20-0 in BGs pretty consistently.

She's probably the only bash build I've ever seen a threat, last I encountered she was instead using a Rune Cage combo that can easily have you to roll right into where she's bashing, or get nuked by the combo if you don't. Sorc mobility also makes the general strategy a lot harder to exploit, with Ball Lightning even covering the range weakness a bit.

The build takes skill to play, and there's plenty of room for skill to outplay it. Fine addition to the meta.

Major_Toughness

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Combined with magsorc returning to the best class in PvP after a few years off, everyone is playing it again.

The problem is that if a ranged damage build is BIS in pvp, melee itself becomes obsolete, the meta is warped.

Kinda like how, you know, swords disappeared after guns became meta.

DW/Ice has been meta for what? 2 years?

Before that there was a combination of 2H/DW/SnB, and Destro/Resto or Destro/SnB. Metas circulate, eventually a change will happen which will tip the scales one way or the other and then another to counter.

Comparing a game with limited parameters to human technological advancements is rather disingenuous.

TechMaybeHic

Think the point being; it used to be done in a way that you are tankier and do more damage for melee given the risk, but now you can have the most damage and mobillity, and now a shield-burst-heal as well thats totals at least as much or not more than melee builds on a ranged sorc

If they want to keep it this way, need to make all those ranged abilities reflectable again

silky_soft

Ranged is much easier to play with ping outside NA. Getting a hit to register with instant skill on a moving player when you're 200ms+ is pretty difficult. Let alone some bs cast time. You get 8m for free from battlespirit for ranged, why bother being melee?

I did bow for a bit but it was boring. Went back to 2h on stamblade. Would rather die heaps then just run away. Kinda lucky we got concealed/suprise to use in both melee and ranged builds.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

DW/Ice has been meta for what? 2 years?

Those are melee builds.

Major_Toughness

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

DW/Ice has been meta for what? 2 years?

Those are melee builds.

So it's OK for melee to be meta and no one play ranged but as soon as it flips that's a problem?

It's nothing to be worried about, either adapt or wait until a change comes and flips the meta again.

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

So it's OK for melee to be meta and no one play ranged but as soon as it flips that's a problem?

yes

katorga

HowlKimchi wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

Agreed, my brother is running a bash build and it's surprisingly potent at bursting people down, and has decent pressure. We discussed his build and it seems to be doable with any class. Probably the most viable build for necros even. I wonder why it isn't more common.

It works, most effective is NB now, sigh. Passive healing and stam sustain from back bar siphoning, very high movement speed to stay on top of targets, huge raw damage modifiers, and the highest possible crit rate and crit damage modifiers.

Next is Bash Arcanist, then Bash Sorc, imo.

I think the only build left for necro.

SandandStars

bash build is as boring as werewolf

one-button rodeo

Durham

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

So it's OK for melee to be meta and no one play ranged but as soon as it flips that's a problem?

yes

No, melee has not been the meta for a while.. only master duel wield and that is a dot ... People have been using staffs for a while.. The melee meta was years ago and range sorcs were great then, bow/ twohander was also thing at that time.

Its about risk reward... balance...

Durham

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

DW/Ice has been meta for what? 2 years?

Those are melee builds.

Ice staff does not count that is a Ranged weapon ... yes it can be used with 7 metters. Buts its still ranged. Duel wield is has been used for applying the strongest dot in the game. It has also been used to buff healing on the back bar...

Durham

Major_Toughness wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

DW/Ice has been meta for what? 2 years?

Those are melee builds.

So it's OK for melee to be meta and no one play ranged but as soon as it flips that's a problem?

It's nothing to be worried about, either adapt or wait until a change comes and flips the meta again.

Its been flipped for a while ...

Urzigurumash

My review of the state of 2h as of last patch:

5 years ago it was great, really unlocked some of StamSorc/DK's latent potential, but some of the cast time and damage adjustments to Uppercut in 2018/2019 could use attention perhaps. I've favored increasing the damage and the cast time but maybe not with this obnoxious Arcanist CC chopping up the flow of close quarters combat so much. Major Berserk has helped but the skill still falls short of where it was years ago. Once upon a time if you caught a MagSorc or NB in close quarters and got em stam locked it was lights out with D Swing, not so much these days.

As for Carve, it was great those few patches where the DoT damage stacked. For me maybe the last run of viable melee StamCro builds besides MDW. These days it underwhelms even with Master's 2h.

The other 3 2h skills are in a good spot and the Ult is a separate and convoluted subject.

Urzigurumash

katorga wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

I do wonder why bash builds aren't more popular because they are incredibly effective. I have no desire to play them personally - I feel like it's taking advantage of a mechanic targeted for PVE (fast interrupts) and it's imbalanced in PVP.

Agreed, my brother is running a bash build and it's surprisingly potent at bursting people down, and has decent pressure. We discussed his build and it seems to be doable with any class. Probably the most viable build for necros even. I wonder why it isn't more common.

It works, most effective is NB now, sigh. Passive healing and stam sustain from back bar siphoning, very high movement speed to stay on top of targets, huge raw damage modifiers, and the highest possible crit rate and crit damage modifiers.

Next is Bash Arcanist, then Bash Sorc, imo.

I think the only build left for necro.

In the spirit of this thread, melee sCro is underperforming so badly there really isn't an easily justified reason to play one.

But if you don't mind playing a bit of a one trick pony, Skulls builds can get some Ks for sure in XvX or OW 1v1.

It does solve the issue Stam has with not having an instant ranged spammable on par with Force Pulse, and it does hit hard. (Especially because it gives another Death Knell stack in my opinion - and hence it opens up the Shadow sign)

But we all know its limitations with projectile speed, and we still have the pesky issue of giving up PI's execute bonus to get Brutality from Venom Arrow.

But to me it's like the only remotely effective thing you can do on sCro right now that you can't do better on other classes.

Urzigurumash

Also on a Skulls build you can listen to this and reminisce about old times playing a floating head

https://youtu.be/qa5Kxb4noEA?si=FFKIFuuzjS4CZ1fF

StaticWave

Durham wrote: »

Currently, Im seeing almost no two-handers. You will still see some duel wield however even that is limited to duel wield master weapon setup. Currently and even in the last patch range is supreme! Why equip melee when you can get the same damage if not more with ranged abilities, with safety of range?

I would like to see more of a balance here! Last night 90% of the players I fought had a staff or bow on Blackreach.

Probably because stat density wise, 2H is not as good as DW. Dizzy Swing is also relatively hard to use for high ping players, and is only really useful on some classes that don't have a good instant-cast class spammable, like Necro/Warden/Sorc. Even then, Rending Slash and Whirling Blades are still better choices for single target and AoE damage. There are some niche builds that use Master 2H and vMA 2H, but they're outliers and require extra bar space.

If you want 2H to be a solid weapon choice again, then ZOS could change one of these few things below to make it more competitive:

1) Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow

Turn one morph into an instant cast spammable and reduce the tooltip to be similar to other instant cast melee spammables

2) Follow Up

Increase damage done with ALL direct damage attacks by 4s instead of only 2H attacks, and reduce the value to 5%

3) Rally

This ability is no longer competitive vs other class burst heals. For example, check the tooltip for Rally vs a few class burst heals (tooltip might change due to class passives):

Rally:



HoTD:



Healthy Offering:



Resistant Flesh:



It would take Rally 10-13 seconds to reach the same tooltip as these burst heals ONCE before requiring another 10-13 seconds, and without the benefit of block casting them on Ice/SnB bar. There are 2 simple solutions to this:

1) Reduce the time it takes to reach a similar burst heal value, either by increasing the base tooltip and reducing the maximum scaling, or increasing the maximum scaling and increasing the scaling per second
2) My preferred choice - Add a HoT that ticks for X value every second for 20 seconds