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Rallying Cry Needs Adjustment

Jsmalls
Jsmalls
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Several other sets for comparison:

Law of Julianos
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Adds 300 Weapon and Spell Damage

Robes of Transmutation
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) When you heal yourself or an ally with a healing over time ability, grant them 1400 Critical Resistance for 5 seconds.

Impregnable Armor
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) Adds 1650 Critical Resistance

Powerful Assualt
ArmorSet bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) When you cast an Assault ability while in combat, you and up to 5 group members within 12 meters gain 307 Weapon and Spell Damage for 15 seconds.

Rallying Cry
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 15 and Critical Resistance by 83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Rallying cry is grossly overpowered and offers as much damage as Julianos (a full damage set) while also offering an equivalent 5 PC bonus to impregnable and a larger 5 PC bonus than Transmutation.

The crit resistance offered by this set is equivalent to 13 impenetrable traits of armor (13 divines would be 118% of a mundus stone).

A solo player (dueling) or even a group with 6 people still makes this set the strongest offense/defense combination the game has to offer. It makes powerful assault look like a joke.

Half each bonus, 150 spell damage and 825 crit resistance and remove the group penalty and this set would still be strong.

This is one of the core reasons we have a tank meta.
Edited by Jsmalls on March 18, 2024 12:03AM
  • React
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    See, I think you're approaching this all wrong with the "remove the group penalty" thing.

    The set is designed to provide stat density to players who are likely at a "numbers disadvantage" in terms of allies vs enemies. However, it does this poorly because the scaling isn't nearly aggressive enough.

    The set needs a slight nerf to the value, mainly the crit resist. But what it really needs is a true aggressive group scaling so that it is only worth using by players who are actually at a numbers disadvantage (solo, duo, trio).

    Change it to reduce the value by 33% for every member in the group. Lower the crit resist to 990, keep the SD at 300.

    Solo = 990 crit resist, 300 WD/SD
    Duo = 660 crit resist, 200 WD/SD
    Trio = 330 crit resist, 100 WD/SD
    4+ group = 0 stats.
    Edited by React on March 18, 2024 3:14AM
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  • Solariken
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    I think the values would be fine if they split up the buffs like Wretched Vitality:

    A crit heal procs the crit resist. Dealing crit damage procs the weap/spell damage.

    Additionally, the duration should be the same or lower than the cooldown so that it is guaranteed to have at least a second or two of downtime.

    But as it currently exists, I agree this set is way to freaking strong.
  • NyassaV
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    No.

    It's hard enough to fight outnumbered. And it should be hard. No reason to make it worse. Increase group penalty if you want but thats it.
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
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  • Jsmalls
    Jsmalls
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    @NyassaV

    I agree fighting outnumbered should be given new PvP sets, but they should be coded as such to give bonuses when taking damage from several unique player sources.

    As it stands right now Rallying Cry grossly overperforms in a 1 v 1 scenario. And is not balanced against other sets that give the same bonus types as this set.

    You are at a serious disadvantage if you aren't running this set which needs to be changed. That's why Reactive armor, Mara's balm, Master Dual Wield, etc etc all needed to be changed.

    And guess what this set is also making it harder for you to fight outnumbered as well because 3 of the 5 people you're trying to burst down are wearing this set and you're doing 15-25% less crit damage to them making them tankier and taking away your best chance to put them down (hard hitting crits). This set coupled with the 35k health meta makes it very hard to put even average players down in a 1v1. They just have too much time to react with the ability to heal to full with the extra spell damage and crit this set also offers.
  • TechMaybeHic
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    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.
  • xylena_lazarow
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    By pure coincidence I had been doing some math wondering how good Rallying's 1650 crit resist really is. Its effectiveness depends on enemy crit stats, here's an example against an average enemy crit build with 2.0x cd multiplier and 40% crit chance. TLDR it's about as good as a Major Protection against crits and overall in the meta considering non-crits about as good as a Minor Protection. If you want to know more about what these numbers mean, DM me.

    l7VeAov.jpg

    So basically we have a single bar stat buff proc that's worth approximately 5% damage and 5% DR with upside against crits. That's certainly good, far better than any other back bar stat buff proc with a damage component, its only serious competition for back bar stat sets is Wretched Vitality which plays a much different role in your build.

    Rallying isn't overpowered, it's overcentralizing. Much like MDW, it sees so much play because its alternatives are mediocre or worse, like what are we going to run, Briarheart? Those new reward email sets were so close, if only they were single bar stat buff procs. I don't think Rallying needs a nerf, I think we need better sets to compete with it.
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  • Jsmalls
    Jsmalls
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    @xylena_lazarow

    If most alternatives are mediocre or worse then by definition that one set is out performing "most" hence not balanced.

    An entire restructure of old set bonuses being brought into line with this set sounds much less likely then balancing a few over performing sets.

    And for the record wretched vitality is also an extremely over performing set. 390 of each recovery (magicka and stamina) is extremely strong for a 5 PC bonus that can proc from the back bar. Amber plasm is 245 of each and isn't a proc for reference (and we all know health recovery doesn't matter). Wretched makes Amber plasm completely obsolete, that's a problem (and I know that exists in other scenarios too).


    And my intention isn't to nerf those outnumbered. I would love to have sets like that. But they SHOULD be coded as such. A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    And a player fighting a single other player shouldn't have buffs made to boost them in an outnumbered fight if that is the intention of this set.
    Edited by Jsmalls on March 18, 2024 1:44PM
  • TechMaybeHic
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow

    If most alternatives are mediocre or worse then by definition that one set is out performing "most" hence not balanced.

    An entire restructure of old set bonuses being brought into line with this set sounds much less likely then balancing a few over performing sets.

    And for the record wretched vitality is also an extremely over performing set. 390 of each recovery (magicka and stamina) is extremely strong for a 5 PC bonus that can proc from the back bar. Amber plasm is 245 of each and isn't a proc for reference (and we all know health recovery doesn't matter).


    And my intention isn't to nerf those outnumbered. I would love to have sets like that. But they SHOULD be coded as such. A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    And a player fighting a single other player shouldn't have buffs made to boost them in an outnumbered fight if that is the intention of this set.

    Not really. We wind up with these proc metas because a lot of these stat sets are terribly underwhelming. I don't use rallying cry because I have gone down to just a few days a week play when my friends are playing, but I see the point here. We need more sets worth while. Especially stat sets
  • xylena_lazarow
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    If most alternatives are mediocre or worse then by definition that one set is out performing "most" hence not balanced.
    Making everything mediocre is the worst form of balance. Why bother with a build system at that point? Nobody is going to start running bad sets just because Rallying got deleted from the game, they'll run Wretched or damage procs, maybe Trickery or Kynmarcher, but the meta will be just as narrow because there are hundreds of sets in this game that are simply not worth using at all, ever. And somehow people will demand more nerfs thinking surely that'll fix it this time.

    More buffs, less nerfs. Rallying Cry exists at a power level appropriate for the current meta, and it's not the reason balls or zergs are oppressive. There are too many useless things in this game that could be buffed to solve problems.
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • React
    React
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.

    Rallying cry does not apply to players outside of your group.
    Edited by React on March 18, 2024 2:40PM
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  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    React wrote: »
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.

    Rallying cry does not apply to players outside of your group.

    I know. I am saying to get around the group size penalty. With friendly markers and discord; theres no need to group to a point where you lose the benefits
  • React
    React
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    React wrote: »
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.

    Rallying cry does not apply to players outside of your group.

    I know. I am saying to get around the group size penalty. With friendly markers and discord; theres no need to group to a point where you lose the benefits

    Yeah, but what are you gonna do, put four people in Rallying cry so they can all get 1650 crit resist and 300 WD rather than all benefiting from group sets such as apocryphal, PA, Arkasis, cryptcannon, saxheel, etc? Just wouldn't make any sense really.
    Edited by React on March 18, 2024 3:03PM
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  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    React wrote: »
    React wrote: »
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.

    Rallying cry does not apply to players outside of your group.

    I know. I am saying to get around the group size penalty. With friendly markers and discord; theres no need to group to a point where you lose the benefits

    Yeah, but what are you gonna do, put four people in Rallying cry so they can all get 1650 crit resist and 300 WD rather than all benefiting from group sets such as apocryphal, PA, Arkasis, cryptcannon, saxheel, etc? Just wouldn't make any sense really.

    I guess it doesn't but then why does it matter if Rallying Cry is penalized be group size when the group would be better off with the other sets you mention?
  • DrNukenstein
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    +1 for don't nerf, add/rework more stuff that works like it.

  • React
    React
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    React wrote: »
    React wrote: »
    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @xylena_lazarow A single player not in a group but that's still between 10 other same alliance players isn't a single player.

    I always wonder, why have a group buff feature if it is going to have a group count reduction? And it is possible to run with other players without actually grouping up. Especially now with friendly target markers.

    Rallying cry does not apply to players outside of your group.

    I know. I am saying to get around the group size penalty. With friendly markers and discord; theres no need to group to a point where you lose the benefits

    Yeah, but what are you gonna do, put four people in Rallying cry so they can all get 1650 crit resist and 300 WD rather than all benefiting from group sets such as apocryphal, PA, Arkasis, cryptcannon, saxheel, etc? Just wouldn't make any sense really.

    I guess it doesn't but then why does it matter if Rallying Cry is penalized be group size when the group would be better off with the other sets you mention?

    Well thats just it, because Rallying cry doesn't have a harsh enough group scaling as is, it is still worth running inside a group all the way up to 12 people.

    The design of the set is supposed to be a tradeoff, giving you stat density in exchange for being at a numbers disadvantage (1vX,2vX, 3vX, etc). Group buff sets, group buffs distributed by classes, and smart group healing all drastically outvalue the density Rallying cry provides - as they should. But since the group scaling isn't nearly harsh enough, groups are being allowed to receive much of the stat density from this set that solo/duo/trio players do, whilst still benefiting from all of the above.
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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    React wrote: »
    See, I think you're approaching this all wrong with the "remove the group penalty" thing.

    The set is designed to provide stat density to players who are likely at a "numbers disadvantage" in terms of allies vs enemies. However, it does this poorly because the scaling isn't nearly aggressive enough.

    The set needs a slight nerf to the value, mainly the crit resist. But what it really needs is a true aggressive group scaling so that it is only worth using by players who are actually at a numbers disadvantage (solo, duo, trio).

    Change it to reduce the value by 33% for every member in the group. Lower the crit resist to 990, keep the SD at 300.

    Solo = 990 crit resist, 300 WD/SD
    Duo = 660 crit resist, 200 WD/SD
    Trio = 330 crit resist, 100 WD/SD
    4+ group = 0 stats.

    This would actually be a good change but I would make a slight adjustment, instead of making it worthless when you have more 4 or more in group make it so that it can only hit you and 3 others similar to other sets. Then scale it so that it still has some value for the 4 man group

    So instead of the above:
    Solo = 1024 crit resist, 300 WD/SD
    Duo = 768 crit resist, 230 WD/SD
    Trio = 512 crit resist, 160 WD/SD
    4+ group = 256 crit resits, 90 WD/SD

    This way a group could put multiple rallying cry sets in if they wanted to spread the buff around but they have to give up other sets to do so, rather than just stopping the set from working completely if you happen to join 3 other friends and don't want to coordinate your sets.
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  • Kartalin
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    Yeah, it needs to be really punishing if ran in groups of more than 4 or 6. I've always thought the scaledown was a little too gentle for the set, to the point that we still have someone run it in a 12 person ball group. It really should not be a ball group viable set.
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  • DrNukenstein
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    +1 for don't nerf, add/rework more stuff that works like it.

    To throw ideas out there:

    Stygian for example is a bad set. It's a bad set because the buff doesn't cross bars, and you have to be in combat to proc it.

    It could be reworked once again to have its 5 piece be something like:

    "When you leave stealth, mist or gain Major Expedition gain 300 W/S damage and major protection against the first source of direct damage that would hit you for 10 seconds."

    more stuff like that. A good amount of offense, some meaningful defense and a good use of the back bar that carries over to the front bar.
  • xylena_lazarow
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    Stygian for example is a bad set. It's a bad set because the buff doesn't cross bars, and you have to be in combat to proc it.
    Other good examples of this:

    Vampire Cloak gives the same 300 wd and 5% DR + upside that Rallying Cry does, but doesn't carry over.

    Blunted Blades is the new reward mail set that offers both damage and crit resist, but doesn't carry over.

    The opportunity cost of needing to double-bar body a 5pc set is very high, as it limits your build configurations, and also starts to compete with more powerful body sets like Draugrkin that justify their opportunity cost on damage builds.

    If we want to nerf it so bad then let's delete the group buff component. Done, easy, RC still top meta, ball still top meta.
    Edited by xylena_lazarow on March 18, 2024 4:34PM
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  • the1andonlyskwex
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    Just make it so it only procs when you crit heal a group member other than yourself. That will make it significantly less useful for solo players (remember, if it were intended as a solo set it wouldn't buff your group at all), while still retaining it's value for small groups.
  • DrNukenstein
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    They could also come up with minor and major buffs for crit resist, then make rallying cry give the hypothetical minor crit resist buff and minor courage, while reworking other sets like powerful assault and transmutation to give the respective majors.
  • xDeusEJRx
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    Just make it so it only procs when you crit heal a group member other than yourself. That will make it significantly less useful for solo players (remember, if it were intended as a solo set it wouldn't buff your group at all), while still retaining it's value for small groups.

    That's hardly a significant nerf at all tbh. It would still be a strong set that arguably 90% of pvp will be keeping in their back pocket to use, which is not a good thing. The scaling either needs to change or the value it provides needs to get a hit.

    It's never a good thing when majority of the players are all keeping the same set in their back pocket to use or actively using it.

    As of right now, there's no reason to not have any rallying cry as a pvp player. It should actually have a bigger downside so not everyone is inclined to use it.

    Sets like RC is why power creep in the game just continually grows worse and worse
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  • NyassaV
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @NyassaV

    I agree fighting outnumbered should be given new PvP sets, but they should be coded as such to give bonuses when taking damage from several unique player sources.

    As it stands right now Rallying Cry grossly overperforms in a 1 v 1 scenario. And is not balanced against other sets that give the same bonus types as this set.

    You are at a serious disadvantage if you aren't running this set which needs to be changed. That's why Reactive armor, Mara's balm, Master Dual Wield, etc etc all needed to be changed.

    And guess what this set is also making it harder for you to fight outnumbered as well because 3 of the 5 people you're trying to burst down are wearing this set and you're doing 15-25% less crit damage to them making them tankier and taking away your best chance to put them down (hard hitting crits). This set coupled with the 35k health meta makes it very hard to put even average players down in a 1v1. They just have too much time to react with the ability to heal to full with the extra spell damage and crit this set also offers.

    They used to have things in the games code which made it easier to fight outnumbered. Dynamic Ult Gen. They got rid of it and I doubt they'll add it back. Rallying cry is a band aid fix and I'm pretty sure it's the best we'll ever get.
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  • Jsmalls
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    There seems to be two separate discussions going on for path forwards for a reasonable adjustment. And comments suggesting it's strong but to bring other sets up to par versus nerfing.

    Zos has this idea of standardizing buffs and they have done so across racial passives, mundus stones, set bonuses etc, I think they should go back to this concept and maintain balance that way. For example Julianos 5 PC is 125% of the apprentice mundus stone, Crafty Alfiq 5 PC is 125% of the mage mundus. It's okay to go beyond these values as long as there are drawbacks 600 spell damage for war maiden but it's ONLY magic damage and doesn't help healing values.

    Rallying cry's proc condition has no drawbacks for also offering 25% crit resistance. So hard values or potential uptime needs to go down for it to be balanced.

    I don't think having a band aid fix set for Fighting outnumbered is the answer and it shouldn't be a single set in the game.

    For Solo play (whether this is dueling or open world) I don't think even 300 WD/SD and 1000 crit resist is balanced. That's 15% crit resist on top of a back bar, easy to manage proc that has a longer running duration than it's cool down (atypical). Two ways to balance this would be bring the WD/SD down to 200 with the 1000 crit resist, OR lower the crit resist down further to 660~ to be 10% crit resist. This would put it in line with the new Blunted Blade set (then we have one magicka and one stamina version).

    For group play I think aggressive scaling would be the most balanced option. Following powerful assault's lead and capping this to 5 other group members seems fair. And the weapon/spell damage should scale down to 150 and crit resist to 330. This would make it a more versatile set in comparison to powerful assault while still offering the same type of bonus (group buffs).
  • Solariken
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    There are lots of ways to go about it but adjustment needs to happen because offering such an easy buff proc to offense and defense causes balance problems. Worst of all is that it causes stalemates and I'm sure we all hate that.

    I especially hate fighting nightblades and sorcs who use RC; it's nigh impossible to kill them because the only way to beat an escape class is to burst them down fast. This set makes them basically immune to burst without sacrificing their own offensive power.
    Edited by Solariken on March 19, 2024 1:30PM
  • Solariken
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    Another idea is to tie the buff values to the number of light armor pieces worn. So maybe 50 weapon damage and 200 crit resist per piece of light armor worn. It is a light armor set after all and this would force a defensive tradeoff for using it.
  • Kartalin
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    Solariken wrote: »
    Another idea is to tie the buff values to the number of light armor pieces worn. So maybe 50 weapon damage and 200 crit resist per piece of light armor worn. It is a light armor set after all and this would force a defensive tradeoff for using it.

    I feel like this would make it a magsorc-only set though, and overnerf it for literally everyone else. You'd have to have 4 or likely 5 light pieces to make it worthwhile over other set options, and brawlers that are less shield dependent are going to struggle.

    Not a bad idea overall in general but maybe not great in this instance.
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