U41 Sorc Vitality Is Suck

SaintJohnHM

Restraining Prison (Shroud) now gives minor vitality instead of major, and doesn't have any magicka rebate if no enemies were stunned.

Pre 41, I used to get Major Vitality for about 1100 magicka when fighting bosses, now I get Minor Vitality for about 4000 magicka, huge nerf with a massive cost increase.

Please change it back, this feels bad bad bad.

Oblivion_Protocol

Change it back? Absolutely not. Sorcs finally got a halfway decent burst heal that more than makes up for the swap from minor to major vitality. We’re not rolling that back just because you’re missing one small buff.

SaintJohnHM

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Change it back? Absolutely not. Sorcs finally got a halfway decent burst heal that more than makes up for the swap from minor to major vitality. We’re not rolling that back just because you’re missing one small buff.

Clannfear and Matriarch are both excellent burst heals. We can even keep shroud as a burst heal, but give us back the better buff.

There aren't many sources of Major Vit, and we already get Minor Vit from Ozezon.

VaxtinTheWolf

The skill just functions differently between the morphs now. So like anything else with these updates, you'll just have to take whatever the most important effect is for your setup and deal with it. Don't ignore that the heal also effects your allies now, and your Ward is buffed through the Vitality effect with some small healing for yourself as well, if you are using that.

I was also using Restraining Prison on my tank, so I lost the 6 second immobilization which feels really bad. Now if I want it back, I'll have to exchange the heal for some unnoticeable damage and only 4 seconds of CC. Both morphs apply Minor Major Maim now for reducing enemy damage as the new bonus, I guess.

I'd like to use the healing morph, but I'll have to figure out if Shattering Prison still has more value because Crowd Control is Crowd Control and people like to whine when the enemies feet aren't glued to the ground.

SaintJohnHM

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

The skill just functions differently between the morphs now. So like anything else with these updates, you'll just have to take whatever the most important effect is for your setup and deal with it. Don't ignore that the heal also effects your allies now, and your Ward is buffed through the Vitality effect with some small healing for yourself as well, if you are using that.

I was also using Restraining Prison on my tank, so I lost the 6 second immobilization which feels really bad. Now if I want it back, I'll have to exchange the heal for some unnoticeable damage and only 4 seconds of CC. Both morphs apply Minor Maim now for reducing enemy damage as a tiny bonus, I guess.

I'd like to use the healing morph, but I'll have to figure out if Shattering Prison still has more value because Crowd Control is Crowd Control and people like to whine when the enemies feet aren't glued to the ground.

Yep, I liked using it in trash packs too. It's not just different, it's weaker now and less useful and costs more. The group heal is nice for sorc healing, but the loss of Major Vit makes tanking less fun.

Soarora

I never used the vitality to be honest. I am unhappy about the essentially nerf from 6 to 4 seconds but 4 seconds seems to be the standard so can’t really complain. Doesn’t actually feel that bad in content but I haven’t pugged anything yet because I know random vet will be the new dungeons. I just swapped to shattering. Some damage is nice but the explosion randomly is a little alarming.

MashmalloMan

Soarora wrote: »

I never used the vitality to be honest. I am unhappy about the essentially nerf from 6 to 4 seconds but 4 seconds seems to be the standard so can’t really complain. Doesn’t actually feel that bad in content but I haven’t pugged anything yet because I know random vet will be the new dungeons. I just swapped to shattering. Some damage is nice but the explosion randomly is a little alarming.

Minor Vitality is 10s long, not 4s. It also does Major Maim for 10s so they line up perfectly.

Love the new skills, losing major vitality for minor with a guaranteed 10s duration instead of based on targets hit and gaining a burst aoe heal, with major maim as icing on the cake are huge. These skills were very niche before, seeing practically no use amongst the majority of players and being outpaced by just about every other comparable skill from other classes/skill lines.

This is one of the few times where I generally think ZOS nailed class skill/passive reworks across the board. Encase, Mines, Shields, and No Pet/Pet passive are all great, each have their uses now, but don't feel OP (so far).

Soarora

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I never used the vitality to be honest. I am unhappy about the essentially nerf from 6 to 4 seconds but 4 seconds seems to be the standard so can’t really complain. Doesn’t actually feel that bad in content but I haven’t pugged anything yet because I know random vet will be the new dungeons. I just swapped to shattering. Some damage is nice but the explosion randomly is a little alarming.

Minor Vitality is 10s long, not 4s. It also does Major Maim for 10s so they line up perfectly.

Love the new skills, losing major vitality for minor with a guaranteed 10s duration instead of based on targets hit and gaining a burst aoe heal, with major maim as icing on the cake are huge. These skills were very niche before, seeing practically no use amongst the majority of players and being outpaced by just about every other comparable skill from other classes/skill lines.

This is one of the few times where I generally think ZOS nailed class skill/passive reworks across the board. Encase, Mines, Shields, and No Pet/Pet passive are all great, each have their uses now, but don't feel OP (so far).

The 4 seconds I was referring to is the immobilize. But I’ve seen archers run out of group while they have the immob crystals at their feet so…
Just feels like tanks got their immob taken away and now one skill is for healers and one is for DPS, but it’s not the end of the world. Same duration as talons, just explodes violently.

MashmalloMan

Soarora wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I never used the vitality to be honest. I am unhappy about the essentially nerf from 6 to 4 seconds but 4 seconds seems to be the standard so can’t really complain. Doesn’t actually feel that bad in content but I haven’t pugged anything yet because I know random vet will be the new dungeons. I just swapped to shattering. Some damage is nice but the explosion randomly is a little alarming.

Minor Vitality is 10s long, not 4s. It also does Major Maim for 10s so they line up perfectly.

Love the new skills, losing major vitality for minor with a guaranteed 10s duration instead of based on targets hit and gaining a burst aoe heal, with major maim as icing on the cake are huge. These skills were very niche before, seeing practically no use amongst the majority of players and being outpaced by just about every other comparable skill from other classes/skill lines.

This is one of the few times where I generally think ZOS nailed class skill/passive reworks across the board. Encase, Mines, Shields, and No Pet/Pet passive are all great, each have their uses now, but don't feel OP (so far).

The 4 seconds I was referring to is the immobilize. But I’ve seen archers run out of group while they have the immob crystals at their feet so…
Just feels like tanks got their immob taken away and now one skill is for healers and one is for DPS, but it’s not the end of the world. Same duration as talons, just explodes violently.

Ahhh.. Fair enough, but major maim is so much more useful than the 2s immobilize. Plus, you're no longer locked into Clanfear, can use Hardened Ward instead and use the slot for something new.

I will agree that the "damage" morph is kind of weird. Damage dealers don't really need it, nor do they have the space for it. We have more than enough delayed burst skills and this one is too slow/random/low value. Talons deals instant damage, applies minor maim, does it around instead of in front of you and has a synergy. Still a better tank immobilize, if the damage on this scaled with HP or Armor... or swapped to a Synergy, no one would bat an eye and tank Sorcs would be more well rounded.

Soarora

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I never used the vitality to be honest. I am unhappy about the essentially nerf from 6 to 4 seconds but 4 seconds seems to be the standard so can’t really complain. Doesn’t actually feel that bad in content but I haven’t pugged anything yet because I know random vet will be the new dungeons. I just swapped to shattering. Some damage is nice but the explosion randomly is a little alarming.

Minor Vitality is 10s long, not 4s. It also does Major Maim for 10s so they line up perfectly.

Love the new skills, losing major vitality for minor with a guaranteed 10s duration instead of based on targets hit and gaining a burst aoe heal, with major maim as icing on the cake are huge. These skills were very niche before, seeing practically no use amongst the majority of players and being outpaced by just about every other comparable skill from other classes/skill lines.

This is one of the few times where I generally think ZOS nailed class skill/passive reworks across the board. Encase, Mines, Shields, and No Pet/Pet passive are all great, each have their uses now, but don't feel OP (so far).

The 4 seconds I was referring to is the immobilize. But I’ve seen archers run out of group while they have the immob crystals at their feet so…
Just feels like tanks got their immob taken away and now one skill is for healers and one is for DPS, but it’s not the end of the world. Same duration as talons, just explodes violently.

Ahhh.. Fair enough, but major maim is so much more useful than the 2s immobilize. Plus, you're no longer locked into Clanfear, can use Hardened Ward instead and use the slot for something new.

I will agree that the "damage" morph is kind of weird. Damage dealers don't really need it, nor do they have the space for it. We have more than enough delayed burst skills and this one is too slow/random/low value. Talons deals instant damage, applies minor maim, does it around instead of in front of you and has a synergy. Still a better tank immobilize, if the damage on this scaled with HP or Armor... or swapped to a Synergy, no one would bat an eye and tank Sorcs would be more well rounded.

I never was locked into clannfear, it puzzles me when people act like clannfear is needed most of the time haha. I only use it in particular situations, opting for dsa snb + puncture for my heal, or dark deal if not blocking, or hardened ward, if none of those are good enough only then do I slot clannfear.

Good suggestions on altering the immobilize though, havent seen any DD mention wanting to use this new ability as an aoe spammable.

SkaraMinoc

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Sorcs finally got a halfway decent burst heal that more than makes up for the swap from minor to major vitality.

Major Vitality is not easily accessible as a group buff. Minor Vitality is already easy to get.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Change it back? Absolutely not.... We’re not rolling that back just because you’re missing one small buff.

Major Vitality is not a small buff.

ZhuJiuyin

Soarora wrote: »

I never was locked into clannfear, it puzzles me when people act like clannfear is needed most of the time haha. I only use it in particular situations, opting for dsa snb + puncture for my heal, or dark deal if not blocking, or hardened ward, if none of those are good enough only then do I slot clannfear.

Good suggestions on altering the immobilize though, havent seen any DD mention wanting to use this new ability as an aoe spammable.

Among Chinese players, some people are already using the new Shattering Spines as samable for HA builds. Because there is no need to worry about the expensive magicka cost of Shattering Spines, and it also has good CC and survival (Major Maim). In addition, Shattering Spines make up for the area damage that the HA build has lost over multiple patches.
The only problem with Shattering Spines is that if cast repeatedly within 4 seconds, Shattering Spines will do more damage than Unstable Wall. But if the two casts take longer than 4 seconds, Unstable Wall will do more damage.
It seems (for now) that Shattering Spines is still balanced. (But it would be great if we could get another 5~10% damage increase)

TheGodlyImage

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

The skill just functions differently between the morphs now. So like anything else with these updates, you'll just have to take whatever the most important effect is for your setup and deal with it. Don't ignore that the heal also effects your allies now, and your Ward is buffed through the Vitality effect with some small healing for yourself as well, if you are using that.

I was also using Restraining Prison on my tank, so I lost the 6 second immobilization which feels really bad. Now if I want it back, I'll have to exchange the heal for some unnoticeable damage and only 4 seconds of CC. Both morphs apply Minor Maim now for reducing enemy damage as a tiny bonus, I guess.

I'd like to use the healing morph, but I'll have to figure out if Shattering Prison still has more value because Crowd Control is Crowd Control and people like to whine when the enemies feet aren't glued to the ground.

I just want to point out that Blood heal passive heals twice on the new shattering so if it's heals you're looking for, you'll get more from the immobilization one (with reduced cost) since it procs twice.

The new heal scales off of power so its not even worth for us to build it really.

TheGodlyImage

Also, you can get minor maim from inner beast and forgo Destro Clench completely (receiving minor brittle from healers normally).Now you get minor vuln from Inner beast (which you normally get from healers as well). The options are there though, so it might be worth to grab shattering on sorc tanks.

MashmalloMan

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

The skill just functions differently between the morphs now. So like anything else with these updates, you'll just have to take whatever the most important effect is for your setup and deal with it. Don't ignore that the heal also effects your allies now, and your Ward is buffed through the Vitality effect with some small healing for yourself as well, if you are using that.

I was also using Restraining Prison on my tank, so I lost the 6 second immobilization which feels really bad. Now if I want it back, I'll have to exchange the heal for some unnoticeable damage and only 4 seconds of CC. Both morphs apply Minor Maim now for reducing enemy damage as a tiny bonus, I guess.

I'd like to use the healing morph, but I'll have to figure out if Shattering Prison still has more value because Crowd Control is Crowd Control and people like to whine when the enemies feet aren't glued to the ground.

I just want to point out that Blood heal passive heals twice on the new shattering so if it's heals you're looking for, you'll get more from the immobilization one (with reduced cost) since it procs twice.

The new heal scales off of power so its not even worth for us to build it really.

Why would it heal twice if it only hits once? Is it counting the initial immobilize that deals no damage for some reason?

Blood Magic: When you hit an enemy with a directly applied Dark Magic ability, you heal for 1600 (10%). This effect can occur once every half second and scales off your Max Health.

The passive doesn't technically say direct damage, it says directly applied so I suppose that makes sense.

VaxtinTheWolf

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

I just want to point out that Blood heal passive heals twice on the new shattering so if it's heals you're looking for, you'll get more from the immobilization one (with reduced cost) since it procs twice.

The new heal scales off of power so its not even worth for us to build it really.

I made a mistake which I will edit in my previous post. It provides Major Maim, not Minor. If I recall, that might be how the passive worked even in the past but I rarely actually kept it in mind. I know for sure I tried to benefit from it by using the damaging Negate Ultimate, but it only procced once on the application of that skill. I'll try it out later, but I have yet to go into combat with my Sorcerer and mostly just looked after my Nightblades so far.

I will also mention that several of my character are.. non standard. I've always built my Sorc tank with a Magicka focus, and health second for large shields and utilizing the Twilight Matriarch. Something around 35k Magicka, 30-35k Health, with 15k Stamina. A few of the themes I had were from long ago, some before One Tamriel, and I've attempted to maintain their identity here and there over the years.

Turtle_Bot

It should work that way as the passive states that it applies when you hit an enemy with a directly applied dark magic ability. It has a half second cooldown.
This implies that its heal will proc under the following 2 conditions:
1. Applying a Dark magic ability directly to an enemy. (i.e. hit an enemy with a dark magic ability)
2. Dealing direct damage to an enemy with a dark magic ability.

Shattering Spines technically does proc both of these conditions and does proc them 4 seconds apart:
1. It attempts to apply its immobilize effect (and applies the maim effect) to any enemy hit by the initial cast, (this fulfils condition no. 1. above)
2. It deals its damage (direct damage) after the effect applied on cast ends, (this fulfils condition no. 2. above)

So it technically fulfills both proc conditions with 1 cast of the ability and does so 4 seconds apart so it doesn't conflict with the 0.5 second cooldown on the blood magic passive.

As for Negate damage morph, my guess is that it counts as damage over time, so technically the initial cast will hit an enemy and directly apply the silence to the enemies within its AoE (can't remember if the first damage tick is instant too) and will proc blood magic on that initial cast, but because it's counted as a DoT (and the silence is an over time effect applied to the area) the rest of the ticks (and silences if someone walks into it) are not counted as "directly applied" instances of damage, just the remaining damage over time ticks of the initial cast.
Needs testing to confirm, but this is my theory why negate doesn't proc it outside of the initial cast.

TheGodlyImage

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

I just want to point out that Blood heal passive heals twice on the new shattering so if it's heals you're looking for, you'll get more from the immobilization one (with reduced cost) since it procs twice.

The new heal scales off of power so its not even worth for us to build it really.

I made a mistake which I will edit in my previous post. It provides Major Maim, not Minor. If I recall, that might be how the passive worked even in the past but I rarely actually kept it in mind. I know for sure I tried to benefit from it by using the damaging Negate Ultimate, but it only procced once on the application of that skill. I'll try it out later, but I have yet to go into combat with my Sorcerer and mostly just looked after my Nightblades so far.

I will also mention that several of my character are.. non standard. I've always built my Sorc tank with a Magicka focus, and health second for large shields and utilizing the Twilight Matriarch. Something around 35k Magicka, 30-35k Health, with 15k Stamina. A few of the themes I had were from long ago, some before One Tamriel, and I've attempted to maintain their identity here and there over the years.

Before the new patch, it only procc'ed one time on application of damage. Now it seems to do it twice.