Killing someone from stealth pressing two buttons is not PvP

RetPing

Sorry, but I don't think you could call that PvP.
Killing someone without him being able to react is not PvP.
Is just a very bad game design.

Your PvP is trash because people dont want that to happen and so go very tanky.
Remove that dumb gameplay and game will become 100 times bette.

sharquez

I'd like to introduce you to a short list of PVP games I have played where ganking is a thing this is by no means exhaustive and I'm sure there are many more:
TF2, Counterstrike, Dota 2, Overwatch, Guildwars, Battlefield, WOW, Rainbow Six. Of them several have multimillion-dollar esports scenes.
Many of them all you have to do is click on a player's head. Others have invisibility and backstabbing or instant kill combos.
considering their wide spread success I don't think their gameplay is the problem here.

Neoauspex

Ah this event is so great, finally some people in PvP with less than 30k health and no crit resist. Joy!

Amottica

A ganker rarely kills me. They tend to not be very good players and have nothing if their short rotation does not kill the player. I expect most of their kills are from players who are not using good AvA builds. Resist, especially crit resistance common in decent AvA builds.

RetPing

sharquez wrote: »

I'd like to introduce you to a short list of PVP games I have played where ganking is a thing this is by no means exhaustive and I'm sure there are many more:
TF2, Counterstrike, Dota 2, Overwatch, Guildwars, Battlefield, WOW, Rainbow Six. Of them several have multimillion-dollar esports scenes.
Many of them all you have to do is click on a player's head. Others have invisibility and backstabbing or instant kill combos.
considering their wide spread success I don't think their gameplay is the problem here.

Pears to apples.

Four_Fingers

Get some crit resistance and do that odd thing called blocking.
You are not in overland any more.

RetPing

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Get some crit resistance and do that odd thing called blocking.
You are not in overland any more.

You are fighting some npc, a Nb coming out of stealth has at least two GCD and with the bad performance of this game I would say at least 3 before you can react.
No, i don't want to build very tanky. I accept of dying. But this is bad gaming design.

karthrag_inak

RetPing wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't think you could call that PvP.
Killing someone without him being able to react is not PvP.
Is just a very bad game design.

Your PvP is trash because people dont want that to happen and so go very tanky.
Remove that dumb gameplay and game will become 100 times bette.

It is not REAL pvp unless someone ends up bleeding or in the hospital. Anything else is just glorified chat fight

merpins

Ganking is normal in PVP. Is it fun for non-gankers? No. Is it fun for gankers? Yes. The pvp community of mmos is small. Ganking is super common. Removing that from a pvp mode of a game would kill off a large number of the players that play it.

Just build around it. If they fail to kill you in 2 or 3 hits, they generally run away because they're not confident in longer fights.

DigiAngel

It's cheap, low, and slimy. That said, depends on your goal....get a kill valiantly through face to face fighting, or slink from the shadows. Either way....a kill is a kill.

RetPing

merpins wrote: »

Ganking is normal in PVP. Is it fun for non-gankers? No. Is it fun for gankers? Yes. The pvp community of mmos is small. Ganking is super common. Removing that from a pvp mode of a game would kill off a large number of the players that play it.

Just build around it. If they fail to kill you in 2 or 3 hits, they generally run away because they're not confident in longer fights.

So i have to change my build because of a specific skill, stealth, the only skill that give you the power od deleting someone.
That is the definition of an overpowered skill.

And let be honest here, ganking large part of the community? They just come out during the event because they can prey on pvers that never go IC.
They destroyed the zone with a very bad game design.

moo_2021

RetPing wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't think you could call that PvP.
Killing someone without him being able to react is not PvP.

Have you seen the kind of damage people do in dungeons? like, 100k a second? How long do you think a typical player would survive if they play monsters with 20k HP? I bet many could one shot mobs themselves. It's only uncommon in PvP because without cloaking nobody would build like that.

So what would you propose for the game to change? Give everyone 1m health?

Daoin

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Get some crit resistance and do that odd thing called blocking.
You are not in overland any more.

yes sir, colonel

ixthUA

PK exists in many games.
I happen to play older pay to win mmos, where PK is common everywhere. Those who get PKed do not like this, but still keep playing because they like the game. Those who do PK love this, and most of time are big spenders (whales).
I think the purpose of PvP events is to bring content (PvErs) for PvP players to kill. I do not fall for this and stay away from Cyrodill.

CrazyKitty

NB's are just grossly OP in PvP now days. They can stay invisible for 90% of any fight, have the highest burst damage and the highest burst heal of any class, and their invisible. They can hit so hard you don't even have time to pop a detect pot to see where the damage is coming from. The class balance in cyrodiil is yet another aspect of how miserable the Cyrodiil PvP experience has become.

TechMaybeHic

Building for crit resistance helps with every player class, not just NB. It's not that bad of game design, although it is when they say they don't want to do separate rules and balance for PvP when it already clearly exists

sharquez

Pears to apples how?
Why start the discussion if you're not willing to engage with evidence to the contrary?
We both know you made this thread after losing your temper anyway so I didn't have high hopes, but really, come on now?

Not only that people are giving you solutions to the problem which you are rebuking. Yes, you have to adapt to the content you are in to play well and be competitive.

Are you going to show up to a vet dungeon in white gear with RP skills?

El_Borracho

And if the ganker doesn't succeed in killing you with that second strike, they die. Pretty quickly. All the time.

Its almost like there is a scale of super high burst damage versus survivability that players must choose between when building for PVP...

SandandStars

get your resistance over 46k, your health over 39k, and your sustain over 2.3k

now those pathetically overpowered nbs cant kill you, and you cant kill anyone else

welcome to the current meta

Cast_El

El_Borracho wrote: »

And if the ganker doesn't succeed in killing you with that second strike, they die. Pretty quickly. All the time.

Its almost like there is a scale of super high burst damage versus survivability that players must choose between when building for PVP...

No. That was two years ago. Now you can build a full damage build and be very tanky (for NB)

RetPing

sharquez wrote: »

Pears to apples how?
Why start the discussion if you're not willing to engage with evidence to the contrary?
We both know you made this thread after losing your temper anyway so I didn't have high hopes, but really, come on now?

Not only that people are giving you solutions to the problem which you are rebuking. Yes, you have to adapt to the content you are in to play well and be competitive.

Are you going to show up to a vet dungeon in white gear with RP skills?

Solutions? Are you joking or what.

Let see people proposed solutions:

-learn to block: yeah sure, I will spend all my time in a pvp zone holding block because a NB may come out of stealth and attack me.

- critical resist: I have already one reinforced and the other are impen. A good NB can dish out so many damage in a couple GCD.

-they die if they not kill yoi: the very bad ones dies. The average one will not. They have major and minor expedition on top of invisibility on top of teleport to shade.

- stack heal. so I have to go 35 health because of a single skill? That is not overpowere at all, right?

All the tips here are only good against very bad NBs.

ProudMary

SandandStars wrote: »

get your resistance over 46k, your health over 39k, and your sustain over 2.3k

now those pathetically overpowered nbs cant kill you, and you cant kill anyone else

welcome to the current meta

How do you do this?

Bushido2513

ProudMary wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

get your resistance over 46k, your health over 39k, and your sustain over 2.3k

now those pathetically overpowered nbs cant kill you, and you cant kill anyone else

welcome to the current meta

How do you do this?

Just off the top of my head, wretched, pariah, gaze, infused tri recovery all health glyphs, points into health as needed, sugar skulls. You'd have to post with CP and food options. Won't kill anything but could take a hit lol. Oh and race nord or maybe imperial.

Bushido2513

RetPing wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Pears to apples how?
Why start the discussion if you're not willing to engage with evidence to the contrary?
We both know you made this thread after losing your temper anyway so I didn't have high hopes, but really, come on now?

Not only that people are giving you solutions to the problem which you are rebuking. Yes, you have to adapt to the content you are in to play well and be competitive.

Are you going to show up to a vet dungeon in white gear with RP skills?

Solutions? Are you joking or what.

Let see people proposed solutions:

-learn to block: yeah sure, I will spend all my time in a pvp zone holding block because a NB may come out of stealth and attack me.

- critical resist: I have already one reinforced and the other are impen. A good NB can dish out so many damage in a couple GCD.

-they die if they not kill yoi: the very bad ones dies. The average one will not. They have major and minor expedition on top of invisibility on top of teleport to shade.

- stack heal. so I have to go 35 health because of a single skill? That is not overpowere at all, right?

All the tips here are only good against very bad NBs.

Well in this game you only kill the bad anything. For instance it's also hard to kill a competent dk, warden, plar, sorc, etc if they decide to hit and run. Nb is similar in that so that's fair in this instance.

The truth of hold block is more about after the first attack and truthfully if you lag at all you may not even get to respond but that's where having a good build, keeping your buffs up and staying on the move comes in. You're in a pvp area so I'm not going to advocate standing around not in a defensive posture. So block saves lives but so does good preparation to be attacked in the sense that you should be ready to take at least one or two hard hits you didn't see coming.

Having impen and health will help you in any fight so that's not the worst advice and is really just meta though for me I go with 30k health and leave the rest to to reaction time and my build. Plenty of things in the game kill you just as fast as NB so having a good build and being ready for high damage helps against more than just NB.

And if you just want to even make sure you don't get ganked there's zoals and the break free cp which again work well against all classes.

So yes are NB gankers or brawler gankers strong and annoying? Yes

Can they be worked around by any class with changes that also help you against other classes? Yes

And this is coming from a magsorc main in that I don't have a burst heal I can block cast. I just have ward up a lot and am ready with the ele or reveal and my build can take a hit. I survive most ganks attempts just due to buffs being up and decent reaction time. I've had other tanky builds that could survive without thinking but did less damage of course. It's just trade-offs

El_Borracho

Cast_El wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

And if the ganker doesn't succeed in killing you with that second strike, they die. Pretty quickly. All the time.

Its almost like there is a scale of super high burst damage versus survivability that players must choose between when building for PVP...

No. That was two years ago. Now you can build a full damage build and be very tanky (for NB)

Are we talking about a gank build or a standard NB build? I've seen both. I agree the current NB builds have a lot of survivability. But the gankers I have come across still die fairly easily if you can survive the initial burst. Especially if you are running a NB...

Bushido2513

El_Borracho wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

And if the ganker doesn't succeed in killing you with that second strike, they die. Pretty quickly. All the time.

Its almost like there is a scale of super high burst damage versus survivability that players must choose between when building for PVP...

No. That was two years ago. Now you can build a full damage build and be very tanky (for NB)

Are we talking about a gank build or a standard NB build? I've seen both. I agree the current NB builds have a lot of survivability. But the gankers I have come across still die fairly easily if you can survive the initial burst. Especially if you are running a NB...

I'm pretty sure this person is talking about a standard build which hits very hard especially if you know how to time your ult and bows.

Gankblade dies fairly easy if you survive but I don't see as many of them these days because it's easier to just have a standard build that hits hard and survives in bigger encounters

lostineternity

RetPing wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Get some crit resistance and do that odd thing called blocking.
You are not in overland any more.

You are fighting some npc, a Nb coming out of stealth has at least two GCD and with the bad performance of this game I would say at least 3 before you can react.
No, i don't want to build very tanky. I accept of dying. But this is bad gaming design.

So the problem is that you have reaction of 70y old? Right?

SkaraMinoc

SandandStars wrote: »

get your resistance over 46k, your health over 39k, and your sustain over 2.3k

now those pathetically overpowered nbs cant kill you, and you cant kill anyone else

welcome to the current meta

Onslaught Bonk from stealth will punch through that.

FlopsyPrince

Neoauspex wrote: »

Ah this event is so great, finally some people in PvP with less than 30k health and no crit resist. Joy!

Great for a kill, but likely to ultimately end up with far fewer for you to gank or play other PvP with.

Some instant gratification things really are counterproductive, not that it will change the attitudes of any. The game should design against that if at all possible.

Bushido2513

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

get your resistance over 46k, your health over 39k, and your sustain over 2.3k

now those pathetically overpowered nbs cant kill you, and you cant kill anyone else

welcome to the current meta

Onslaught Bonk from stealth will punch through that.

Let's say it hits for 20k, you'll easily be able to block heal, roll dodge, etc and they've burned an ult.

Also if you run this build you're usually on a DK, Warden, or arc so recovery will be incredibly easy

AvalonRanger

"Killing someone from stealth pressing..."

In the contemporary high quality shooter PVP game like the "Battle Field",
then "sniping or be sniped by someone" will add nice realistic tension for the combat.

But in ESO? Well no thanks. It's just unreasonable game design. We don't have much
counter NB tactics anyway. Simply, I hate "everything meta build game".